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Clearing Debts

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Jason
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Clearing Debts

Post by Jason on Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:55 pm

I have a habit of trying to clear the national debt of a nation I'm playing-in one go if possible or over a number of years. I think it's simply part of my 21st Century make-up at play, wanting to be debt-free.

In the game, is there any advantage in doing so? Other than not having to pay the annual interest of course! Does it improve an economy? Enhance honour?
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Deacon on Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:59 pm


In game 3 I have a large debt that I've taken a fairly sizeable bite out of. No apparent impact to my weak economy, though it is still fairly recent...
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Jason
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Jason on Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:22 pm

That's always been my findings, it doesn't seem to impact on an economy.
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Kingmaker on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:44 pm

no only on future loans if you default


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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Deacon on Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:50 pm

Good to know, though I would think all those lenders could use the money more productively than lending it to the government, so you should see some economic benefit.

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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by baggins on Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:15 pm

i suspect in the game that paying off the national debt helps the economy. i am no economist but my understanding is that, in real life, the reverse is true and england, for example, built its sophisticated financial services on the back of the national debt.

so the more england became indebted the more powerful she became, which sounds counterinituitive, but then i dont pretend to understand economics.

i think the argument goes that a national debt means a guarenteed income for the population, who then invested more freely, secure in the knowldge that they have a risk-free bond income.

moreover the debt binds the population and the government together if the investors know their financial future is allied to the success of the state.
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Kingmaker on Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:01 pm

BUT the bigger the debt the more worry over how to pay it off!


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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by baggins on Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:32 pm

true, i guess the main issue is to invest debt in things that will grow quicker than the debt. if you invest in armed forces make sure you take more territory than you lose in money!
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Kingmaker on Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:46 am

Territoy will give you more recruits and some money eventually trade is the only way to increase it. As Russia I invest around 9 million every year and throw in some recruits so far every year i am getting a large profit back.


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revvaughan
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by revvaughan on Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:55 pm

This past year I invested around 45 million pounds along with 6,000 recruits and recieved about 220 million pounds in return. For the first time in any AGEMA game I have come very near to breaking the 1 Billion pound in the bank mark. I love working on this aspect of the game.
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Deacon on Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:24 pm


Wow. That's a lot of money! You opening gold plated public schools? Laughing
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revvaughan
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by revvaughan on Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:52 pm

Na... New ships, new guns, lots of new toys for my fighting boys.
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Deacon on Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:56 pm


So why put in recruits at all if you're still investing in military stuff? My understanding reading the rules is that recruits and money were pretty much interchangeable. Recruits just were a 'cheaper' way of doing it, but you don't sound like you need cheap.
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revvaughan
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by revvaughan on Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:14 am

It seems to be working... I use my foreign purchased recruits for that purpose. This year along I invested well over 100 million pounds into the economy.
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Jason
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Jason on Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:19 am

Christ! I think I need to up my trade investments Very Happy
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Deacon on Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:42 pm


Well if I had that kind of money to invest, I'd be gold plating my chamber pots!
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revvaughan
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by revvaughan on Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:45 am

It is nice to have the money, but it could easily flow away as well... Got to stay on the cutting edge.
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the great unwashed
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by the great unwashed on Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:22 pm

This past year I invested around 45 million pounds along with 6,000 recruits and recieved about 220 million pounds in return. For the first time in any AGEMA game I have come very near to breaking the 1 Billion pound in the bank mark. I love working on this aspect of the game

I now feel like a very small fish in a very big pond pale
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revvaughan
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by revvaughan on Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:58 pm

You have friends in that pond sir!
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the great unwashed
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by the great unwashed on Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:19 pm

Thank you. It is appreciated.

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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by baggins on Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:26 pm

apart from being completely jelous im very surprised at the returns obtained.

historically eighteenth century rates of return were pretty low, mainly being agricultural, although there were spectacular rates of return in speclai industries such as tobacco and suger there are limited opportunities for investment, so while you can make a lot of money its hard to see how you could scale things up to the size obtained.

i would say a general rate of return of between 3-10% would be the norm, with perhaps some industries breaking through that ceiling in exceptional circumstances. the rates you mentioned, 480% are, in my view, unrealistic on the scale mentioned, 45 million to 220 million, likely quite impossible in this pre industrial age.

one of the greatest financial disasters of the age was the south sea bubble, and that was only 10 millions (at a time when total British government spending was 70 million - 1717)

in reality the major states in the eighteenth century were heavily indebted, so these returns may be undermining the historic reality of the game. dont get me wrong i commend those players who have made the right decisions and invested carefully, you are doing a great job.

but im worried - something more for Richard to consider - how sustainable the games are if some players have spectacular amounts of money unjustified by historical returns.

and yes my grapes are definately sour!
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revvaughan
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by revvaughan on Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:20 pm

There are three other factors that have served to increase the return Britain seas from her colonial holdings as well. Much more than 45 million was invested in other ways. New towns, roads, canals, etc. Further, the sheer size of the British Colonial world is critical to note as well.

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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by baggins on Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:47 pm

sure. im certainly not doubting that investments in infratsructure and people have been wisely made and the game has been well played on its own terms. its just if one crucual area - financing - is not kept within realistic historic boundaries it upsets evrythign else in the game as you can end up having militaries - and funding allies - to a fantastical degree.

of course its the same for all players, but since not all games are in the same stage of development and some players are newer than others, its going to leave a question mark over the viability of some games.
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revvaughan
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by revvaughan on Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:15 pm

It might be somewhat out of the historical levels, but it is not much out of the realm for Britain (albeit a few years earlier than the historical time period that Britain was able to do this).

Perhaps the choiced made have brought about the desired effect for the economies in question. This is certainly not always the case since the same nation I am currently playing has been my home in a few other games and the income levels were no where near this. Continued investment is about the only thing keeping levels where they are.
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Re: Clearing Debts

Post by Kingmaker on Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:06 am

Managing investments and your money is always a plate spinning exercise. Just recently there was a dip in Game 2 were every ones EH was down to at least 4 some 3. No reason was given for this but i have my suspicions shall we say Very Happy

Also some nations will find a good source of money making in the markets or corner one particular item/s which will rake in the cash.

Bear in mind as well that the cost of of raisin ships and tropps are out of line with real values at the time as well. How would peple react if the right values for ships and troops as well as income was aplied to the game?

For instance in 1775 a Guards Regt Pivate was paid 10d a day thats 5p in todays money, a Colonel 1 19s a day


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