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The Agema Shuffle ???

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Stuart Bailey
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The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat May 12, 2012 1:19 am

The non G7 players may not have noticed this but prior to Jan 1706 all the focus was on James Francis Edward Stuart born 1688 with:

1) The Jacobites getting their young leader crowned in Canterbury..........assume they believed at that stage the old King James II was dec'd since he would not need to be crowned and you could hardly crown a 2nd jacobite king with the old one still breathing.

2) The real Louis XIV defended himself from charges of bad faith and broken treaties/promises by saying these applied only to James II and not to his son (a historic arguement on both sides)

3) Spain trying to arrange a Royal Wedding with the 17/18 year old Prince.

But suddenly Agema says you are all wrong and the Prince run through by Churchills Blade was not the Stuart who signed the Concorde of Bristol & the Proclamation of Accession but his dear old dad.

This would seem to have two results..........1) If anyone wants to run the Jacobite faction you have not only got a martyr but also a leader with a better claim to the throne than William 2) A live Jacobite Prince means the French are pretty much honour bound to fight on esp since the French Army in England is commanded by a son of the murdered man (and just to really keep it in the family Berwicks mum is Churchills sister).

To date the French having been saying the Anglo-French war and the War between France and the Emperor are totally seperate while the Emperor has said they are linked. What is the betting that in 1706 the French will be saying they are linked and the Emperor has sided with Heretics and King Killers while the Hapsburgs will be saying "John who? dont know the man" and be claiming that the only thing they want is their land back.

Something the real Louis has claimed all along when the Emperor sent his troops into ex Habsburg Lands rather than to England.

As a matter of interest does anyone have a complete list of all the lands Louis XIV has taken from the Habsburgs in the last 50 years or so?
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Deacon
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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Deacon on Sat May 12, 2012 6:35 am

Are you saying that Marlborough killed the elder, but the prince is still kicking? If so, that's a bloody mess!
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Jason
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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Jason on Sat May 12, 2012 8:28 am

Clearly Marlborough should have gone to Specsavers Wink

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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Guest on Sat May 12, 2012 11:45 am

Confusion does seem to have arisen over which King James has been killed. The original King James II died in 1701. At this point France received a letter which I still have somewhere from the then Jacobite player (James Francis Edward Stuart b.1688) requesting assistance to restore his throne. When JFES was crowned he was crowned as James II which I thought was odd at the time. In real history JFES was deemed to be a fugitive from English justice and stripped of his titles by Bill of Attainder (a process which does not require the presence of the accused or any level of proof which is normally required by a court). It was abused by kings and used by them against certain nobles to remove their noble privileges. There is some doubt whether it had any legal validity to be used against a King: if it could, then it surely would have been used against King Charles I rather than going through a trial. I don't remember any such bill being passed within LGDR7 against JFES. Without that then King James should have been King James III rather than King James II.

Stuart's conjecture of an 'Agema Shuffle' is surely just that - a conjecture - not what has happened in the game. The strength of LGDR is that it is not pure fantasy, but allows players to explore counterfactual history. If Agema are going to start raising characters from the dead then it seems to invalidate the entire purpose of the game.

Stuart Bailey
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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat May 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Very Happy I only posted on what was reported in the La Gloire Jan 1706 edition which reports on the 70 year old Jemes Stuart getting run through by Churchill.

Resulting in belief that a Kansas City Shuffle has been trumped by a Agema one and a 18 year old Jacobite Prince is still knocking around the place. I may be wrong but if anyone wants to play the G7 Jacobite faction I reckon Richard would be happy to oblige. Ideal position for player who likes Choas and blood feuds!

Actually as someone who thinks the D of M attempt to solve his Jacobite problem was against the spirit of the period and the character I am happy with a bit of a fudge which means dodgy action by the English has resulted in them having a bigger Jacobite problem than before.

And on the basis that the GM is always right I will be happy to welcome a JFES to the game & sorry to hear about your Dad.

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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Guest on Sat May 12, 2012 12:59 pm

Perhaps the age is a misprint? Misprints do occur in the Herald. With the encounter at Staines, it was reported that French forces were resting with their left flank on the river which would have put them between London and Marlborough. On clarification this was found to be a misprint and it was my right flank resting on the river which put Marlborough blocking the French route into London.

I think we both agree it is inconsistent with previously reported facts, and having not seen the newspaper I can only comment on what players post here.

However, if the 70-year old King James has been resurrected by Agema, then I agree with you, Stuart, that the Jacobite problem has just become much worse. I don't think there would be anyone in England who could defend the actions of DM and sympathy for the Stuarts must be at an all time high!
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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Deacon on Sat May 12, 2012 6:27 pm

Historically he died in September 1701, did he actually die in 1701 in the game and was it reported in the paper?

If so, this must be an error. But in other games, historical death dates aren't in-game death dates.

in Game 8 it is august 1701 and King Carlos is still lingering when historically he died nearly a year ago.

I would expect Richard would want to randomize those kinds of death dates to avoid players being able to take advantage of predicting them.

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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat May 12, 2012 6:47 pm

I have noticed the same in G7....... William of Orange lasted longer than the historic one ditto King Carlos of Spain. Seems that Williams horse has avoided the mole holes while Carlos spent months at deaths door being nursed by the various Spanish factions who got really upset when Portugal hinted that he had been murdered.

The death of James II has never actually been reported in the paper. I think what happened was a new Jacobite player assumed he had passed away and started to play as JEFS with other players taking his lead and assuming that James II had passed on at the historic time.



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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Guest on Sat May 12, 2012 8:44 pm


Although I no longer have paper copies of the Herald going back to 1700, I do recall the death of King James II being reported in the Herald in 1701 and it was mid 1701 when I received a game letter from a player who claimed to be the son of the recently deceased king. I accept Deacon's/Stuart's comment that dates of death of historic figures are often changed in the game as happened with William of Orange and Carlos of Spain; we also had a son of William of Orange who appeared, but didn't exist historically. However, I still find it incredible after all this time that the James Stuart everyone thought they were dealing with was not in fact the one they were. Surely this would have been pointed out to me and other players in the 4 years since his father's death? That is only common sense. I made a number of mistakes whilst playing the game, but this is not one of them. If it was then every other player is guilty of the same mistake. The James Stuart who was with the French army in England was on my asset list as being born in 1688. If this was the same James Stuart who made the trip from Bristol to London to meet the Duke of Marlborough then he seems to have aged 52 years during the journey. Something doesn't add up and common sense suggests that the GM did indeed make a mistake. It does happen.


Last edited by The Real Louis of France on Mon May 14, 2012 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Deacon on Mon May 14, 2012 4:16 pm

Well, Richard has confirmed on the other thread that the elder didn't die and apparently did a few things in 1703 to confirm.

That means the bloody mess that was here before is, I guess, even bloodier!
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Regor
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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Regor on Sat May 19, 2012 1:01 pm

God bless the Shantung Emperor is what I say! Very Happy

Mess? I can't wait to see what the French/Jacobite troops think to the cutting down of this older king and where the DoM's honour will go? The action looked like a true deus ex machina and looked to set England straight but discussing here suggests it won't.

So can I substitute deus ex machina for the Agema shuffle? More in keeping with the age and slightly more respectful if the GM is reading this tongue
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Jason
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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Jason on Sat May 19, 2012 1:27 pm

Regor wrote:God bless the Shantung Emperor is what I say! Very Happy


You mean the whole war was actually a cunningly clever plan by the Chinese to make the barbarians exhaust themselves in war, leaving them easy pickings for his fast approaching ocean-covering Armada and the million strong army it carries Wink
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Re: The Agema Shuffle ???

Post by Regor on Sat May 19, 2012 1:50 pm

Laughing absolutely!

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