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Game 9 Start Up

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:13 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:... it is remarkable that when Bavaria annexed Wurttemburg France did nothing about protecting the Sovereign Rights of that Prince. While self appointed protectors of the status quo in the Empire like the Emperor and the Duke of Flanders did nothing as well.

That episode was particularly unfortunate. Having allied to France to protect himself against Austria, Bavaria then threw his lot in with Leopold who promised he would agree to Bavaria annexing Wurttemburg and make him Reichsmarshall. Leopold assigned Wurttemburg to Bavaria who marched his armies into Wurttemburg and found no resistance. Duc Eberhard (inactive) was taken completely by surprise - the emperor who should have been his protector had turned on him, betraying his office and the confidence of other HRE states. France did offer Wurttemburg assistance as I was treaty bound to do, but Duc Eberhard caved in and surrendered before that assistance could arrive. Given Duc Eberhard had given up his kingdom 'voluntarily' without a direct appeal to France there was nothing France could do as I explained in my statement in the newspaper at the time. Neither Spain nor Sweden seemed willing to do anything either given that by the time they had replied to letters duc Eberhard was no longer ruler of Wurttemburg. I gave both Spain and Sweden the benefit of the doubt, though it appears that in the case of Spain I should have known better!

As France was determined to seek peaceful resolution of any differences with Austria, diplomacy took priority over direct action. Far from expecting war, France was at peace with Austria and was looking forward to a marriage which would have heralded a grand Catholic alliance: France/Spain/Austria. To risk all this for a Duc who made no attempt to preserve his realm against a nominal ally of France would have been very difficult. Had Austrian troops invaded Wurttemburg directly then I would have had no choice but to act more quickly, but in any case I would not have done so without at least discussing it with Austria first.

It is easier to criticise such actions with hindsight, and condemn French naivety. But when nations negotiate under false pretences, and then turn on you and attack irrespective of the treaties they have signed, there isn't much that can be done. By allowing himself to be used in this manner Bavaria temporarily gained control of Wurttemburg, but by demonstrating his treachery so openly he has also made a lot of enemies. Seen in the context of Austria's subsequent attack on France, it is clear that Bavaria's actions were an attempt to neutralise Wurttemburg or ultimately gain more troops for Austria's war against France, a war which no doubt Bavaria is desperate to join.

Stuart Bailey wrote:... Actually, if Louis wants to join a game in which the French and some of the German Princes are struggling to hold a over mighty Emperor in check can I suggest G2 rather than G9? In G2 the Emperor views the T of W as a disgrace and a French plot to keep Germany divided.

An interesting possibility, but as G2 must now have reached about 1740 it is a long way away from 1700. I know very little about the conflict in G2, its causes or why various nations are fighting so cannot really comment. It is interesting though that the ToW is still causing trouble in such a mature game, proof that the points I made earlier on this thread are correct! If I was to take on a new position then I would prefer to start from scratch and build it up rather than spend a long time sorting out an inherited situation which is always rather messy. This thread is supposed to be about G9 Startup issues. I hope that if I do join G9 old grievances from G7 will not be carried on into a new game.
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Jason on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:09 pm

Given the fact the Prussian yachts seem to be reducing the French coastal defences to matchwood and the French merchant fleet to wrecks...
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Jason on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:16 pm

Seriously Louis, you would enjoy G2, France is being played (I think) but enough other positions you'd enjoy...

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:23 pm

You really want G2 to end up like G7 ? Besides, I don't think Hessian would cope with me in G2, unless you're hoping that if I joined it would immediately cause him to turn his entire attention towards me to distract from his other enemies? We may be only a short while from G9 starting anyway. Good things come to those who wait


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Jason
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Jason on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:32 pm

You'd end up against J Flower who is a very different character and one I think, intellectually, you would find an interesting challenge...and G2 is very different to G7...
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Deacon on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:33 pm

I am dubious about game 9 starting soon, since turn around on existing games is still not reliably 3 weeks which suggests to me that Richard has more business than he can handle currently. (game 8 last due nov. 9, this turn due dec. 7th)

But I could be wrong.

But one thing I've learned is that if I end up playing in game 9, I am not touching the french position with a 10' pole!

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Jason on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:37 pm

Deacon wrote:I am dubious about game 9 starting soon, since turn around on existing games is still not reliably 3 weeks which suggests to me that Richard has more business than he can handle currently. (game 8 last due nov. 9, this turn due dec. 7th)

But I could be wrong.

But one thing I've learned is that if I end up playing in game 9, I am not touching the french position with a 10' pole!


Got to agree with Deacon on all points...

... though hope we do get a G9 in a year or so...still have the Scottish urge

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Guest on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:54 pm

Jason, if I did join G2, I'd have to be very clear on the moral cause behind the war. If France was at fault, broke treaties, betrayed its allies or made pre-emptive attacks then I would find it very difficult to side with France. For all I know the Emperor in G2 could be a very honourable fellow. It is the moral dimension to G7 which made it such a fascinating game, and I seem to enjoy things more with that added depth. I don't think players should join in simply to wreck the balance in an existing game or to gang up on a long term player. I can't remember who mentioned it before, but it does seem like a good idea to have a summary for each game detailing what is happening (and why). Joining G2 as a Swashbuckler character whilst I sniff out what is happening is perhaps a more likely introductory step, but if I did that I might find it difficult not to get dragged in to other aspects?

Deacon, you'd make a great Louis! Full of fire and spirit, with good historical knowledge and a sympathy for the Catholic faith. You sound ideally qualified! I'm sure you'd beat back the opposition far more effectively than I did without making my mistakes. And you could design lots of new uniforms!

You might be right about G9 being delayed, I don't know. I just thought it made sense to issue the new rules before starting a new game, and now the new rules have come out, that is one less hurdle?
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Jason on Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:08 pm

Louis, there is no ganging up in G2 at all...as a game it has a very different feel to G7 but I could just see you enjoying the intellectual challenge of competing with someone like J Flower or any of the other long term players in game. But again you might also enjoy the Swashbuckler approach (I wouldn't, only because-personality wise-i'd be an accountant) and there are already a couple of others playing it in G2.

As to G9, your observation on the rules makes sense, I just tend to agree with Deacon, until turn turnaround speeds up there is not point.

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:07 pm

Jason wrote:Louis, there is no ganging up in G2 at all...as a game it has a very different feel to G7 but I could just see you enjoying the intellectual challenge of competing with someone like J Flower or any of the other long term players in game. But again you might also enjoy the Swashbuckler approach (I wouldn't, only because-personality wise-i'd be an accountant) and there are already a couple of others playing it in G2.

As to G9, your observation on the rules makes sense, I just tend to agree with Deacon, until turn turnaround speeds up there is not point.

I agree with the above......G2 has a very different feel to G7. The feel of G7 is basically set by the rivalry and general bad feeling between Bourbons & Hapsburgs who are both Catholic Aristocrat's and English factions who's views and policies do not really differ that much so it tends to be a game of spies, agents and propaganda wars. And you spend most of your time trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

In G2 the focus is very, very clear our Honourable and Kindly Protestant Emperor and some other princes, and after decades of service to Prussia and the Empire, has decided that the HRE needs to be turned into a German National State.

Too German Nationalists and Prussians the Emperor is on a holy mission and anyone who attempts to block it is a vile traitor who risks seeing the weak and divided fatherland crushed by the French or the revived Ottoman power. Who in recent times when not fighting each other have destroyed Venice, Austria, The Knights of St John, killed a king of Poland & a Doge of Genoa and smashed a Catholic Alliance.

Opposed to the Emperors vision are the French who do not want a English allied Protestant Super Power on their Eastern Flank and the Pope and the Catholic Bishop-Princes of Western Germany who dont want to join in the Protestant Emperors Grand Plans. No matter how generous or fair he is in his offers......the answer is still no.

The above is actually a bit more cut & dry than G2 actually is and is unfair to many G7 players much of the time but if RKL wants a game set around "Le Grand Idea" G2 is the better game. Plus it has real old style Ottomans... non of this G7 Ottoman Lite types who go around on the Grand Tour handing out scented snuff. In G2 the quote was rather "I love the smell of Burning Palaces.....it smells like Victory"

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:44 pm

Thanks for the summary Stuart. Im not entirely clear, but I certainly agree that G7 would have been very different if there was an Ottoman player who had kept pressure on the Catholic powers. The Grand Catholic Alliance which I was so keen on establishing in G7 may then have actually happened!

At the risk of sounding particularly uninformed about G2 I dont understand how there can be a Protestant Emperor. But that aside, if a group of states want to merge their interests and act as a single state then I dont really see what anyone can do about it. The key is that such moves are consensual, i.e. do not involve force or other pressure being brought to bear. This is the key difference to G7 where it was Austria who objected to states making decisions on their own and sought to use force to stop them. So in G2 if you have a large block of formerly separate states who just happen to share the same religion and voluntarily joined together then I think France and the Catholic Bishoprics will just have to live with that.

Is there any reason why the Catholic Bishoprics cannot simply leave the Empire to preserve their religious independence, or am I being nave again? Of course if the Catholic Bishoprics have received and rejected such an offer in the past then they owe their Emperor an explanation. I am consistent in my understanding of the Treaty of Westphalia, that an Emperor cannot fight to hold the Empire together so some kind of partition arrangement seems to be the obvious way forward. For the bishops to reject that idea implies they are the ones being aggressive for purely political reasons. In which case the conflict cannot be an Imperial matter. Perhaps the first stage to a resolution would be for those nations who are at war to state clearly why they are at war and what they hope to achieve. For a war to continue simply because the parties dont know how to make the first move towards peace seems to approach G7 levels of stupidity. Or am I being unfair to the players?

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:27 pm


In G2 the Emperor is not actually the Emperor because he has never been crowned in Rome by the Pope (being a Protestant may also be a problem) and correctly he should be called Emperor-Elect or King of the Romans.

He is Emperor elect because he holds 4 electorial votes out of a possible 7 "my the power vested in me I hereby elect myself Emperor" and is liable to shot anyone who challenges for the title.

The Imperial lands (like many other States) have been built up by a mixture of conquest, marriage and purchase so about 50% of the Empire is under the Direct rule of the Emperor. Ref the rest The Emperor considers them his Vassals who have a duty to offer him military support etc. This means the HRE is a strange mix of modern Nation State in the East and the 12 Century Empire in the West.

For reasons of economic health, defence and sheer idealism some mostly Protestant Princes in the west like Hanover seem happy in the new Germany which can now walk tall and spit the French right in the eye. But equally clearly many mostly Catholic Princes in the west object to being told to "pay up, sign up shut up" by a bunch of Protestant Prussians and Saxons (Bring back the Austrian Emperors all is forgiven??? Pity the Turks cut the last ones head off and fired it into Vienna) and probably would be happy to take your advise and leave the Empire. The problem is the Emperor would view this has high treason against the Reich.

The problem for G2 France is does it support the rebels or not? And are Princes like Mat the Mad of Baden justified in their revolt when the Emperor uses a diet packed with his men and allies to re-write the Imperial rules?

As you can see both sides have very valid positions which include very different views of the Holy Roman Empire - a collection of small and medium states? Or is it En Volk, En Reich, En Emperor? General view is that this is a matter for Blood & Iron.

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Guest on Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:06 pm

It is a rather odd intellectual problem.

In the rules the Emperor does not have to be crowned in Rome or by the Pope. He can be crowned somewhere in Germany by a Catholic Archbishop or higher. There is also a note on modifying the Coronation Oaths and I dont know whether this has been done in G2 or not. The distinction may in practice be meaningless because an Emperor cannot be overthrown, but must resign or die to cause an election. Such an event also dissolves the Aulic Council so there is no mechanism for an Empire to run without an Emperor. Further proof that the powers rest with the states rather than the Emperor! By controlling sufficient electoral votes to be the only candidate who can be elected then such a candidate can be the only Emperor. A rival cannot bypass the need to be elected, so there can be no challengers.

If most of his lands were built up by marriage or purchase (i.e. through consensual means) and this amounts to around 50% of the whole Empire then that just sounds like good play to me. This kind of thing wouldnt have happened overnight, but after many years of game play.

What happens then depends on how the Imperial rules were altered. By old powers the Emperor has the right to call on states for all kinds of things, but he cannot demand them and he cannot force decisions through by majority votes. The sovereignty and independence of individual states is absolute. By 1700 The Imperial Diet had become a congress of representatives of independent states which would not dare to deal with anything greatly significant such as levying taxes or raising armies since any decision it took would be ignored with impunity by member states, making the whole exercise fairly pointless. Such powers (since 1667) rested with the Diet of each principality.

So although I am wary of commenting based on just one side, it appears that although the Emperor can ask the Catholic princes in the west to pay up, sign up and shut up, he would be rather unwise to do so as a refusal would make him look rather silly. He cannot view their refusal to comply as any offence against himself or the Reich as he has no legal right to force compliance or to stop those princes leaving the Empire.

You cannot rebel against an authority which does not exist. So the question of whether France or anyone else should support the Catholic princes doesnt arise. They are free to choose France as an ally irrespective of whether they are within or outside the Empire. This was always the case.

Perhaps the problem is in the use of the title which seems to bring rather a lot of baggage with it? If the title of Kaiser was simply granted to the ruler of Prussia (which he can probably do himself), all Imperial institutions disbanded and the Empire ceased to exist then there would simply be a straight forward disagreement between France and Prussia? France could not fight to re-establish the empire as it had been legitimately dissolved by the last emperor. Catholic bishops would surely be suspicious of any supra-national authority which sought to limit their own powers, but for convenience there would be nothing to stop those Catholic bishops from merging together to form their own state if that is what they freely decided to do?

Ive probably unintentionally upset lots of applecarts with this analysis and Im sorry if Ive offended any of the players involved in this, but reducing Stuarts explanation to its essentials there seem to be some quite obvious ways to break the circle.
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Jason on Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:10 pm

Ahhh Stuart...who knows what Hanover really thinks... Wink
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Deacon on Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:22 am


In game 3, I issued a papal bull that the _title_ holy roman emperor, being created by the church was imbued with the magisterium of the church and could never be applied to a non-catholic, and so instructed all the catholic electors.

It wasn't much, but it was the best I could do

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Stuart Bailey on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:51 pm

Deacon wrote:
In game 3, I issued a papal bull that the _title_ holy roman emperor, being created by the church was imbued with the magisterium of the church and could never be applied to a non-catholic, and so instructed all the catholic electors.

It wasn't much, but it was the best I could do


Deacon,

I think the Pope in G2 rather shares your view and has at different times backed the Archbishop of L-C and French intervention in the HRE in attempts to upset the greater unification of the Holy Roman Empire under a Emperor who normally refers to the Pope as "The Roman Anti Christ".

The simple solution to problems with L-C, Baden and Munster which the Emperor was putting into effect was to crush the "rebels" by Military means and hang the Bishop of L-C from his own Bell Tower. Things were going well for the Imperialist side when France and Sweden joined in on the "rebel" side. With Hungary threatening to do the same.

With three of the main Prussian Armies being caught over extended and given a real beating I think the French and their allies were hopefull that the war would end there and the Catholic Bishop Princes plus Baden and Lorraine would go on to establish a Pro French "Confederation of the Rhine" - a nicer buffer zone on the Western border of France rather than a united Protestant dominated Germany.

Sadly for the gang of three and their Germanic allies all they had actually done was upset the Emperor and trigger years of careful diplomacy by the Emperor.

Sweeden found itself being invaded by Russian Armies and its ports bombarded.

Hungary did not even move......Its General Staff conducted a War Game which showed a really good result right up to the point when they were asked what happens when the Emperor invokes his alliance with the Ottomans and Sultan Suleyman IV starts to burn Hungary down to the bedrock.

This has left France in a fairly strong position on the Rhine but faced with a very annoyed Emperor who now wants to hang the Elector of Baden and any other French Lackey he can find. Plus France has to also deal with an accidentally upset Spanish Government and the Francophobic King of England George of Hanover and his equally Francophobic Ministers who gleefully hope to fight the Frogs to the last German, Russian and Turk.

It is not sure if George Junior shares his dear old Dad's dislike of all things French or considers himself to be the dashing, cosmpolitian one in a family of want to be Junkers.


Last edited by Stuart Bailey on Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by revvaughan on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:56 am

His Majesties Government is only warming up! It does remain to be seen what the next act will be in the stage play that is game two, but I dare say it might well be explosive.

Game 2 is quite an interesting world where the old concept of balance of power is certainly being stretched and tested in ways that were not done for another 120 years. I do believe that eventually the Prussians might pull this off because the French bank account is scraping bottom while just across the channel the balance is headed for a billion pounds.

The game could use some new blood of the calibre of RKL!

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by J Flower on Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:16 pm

I agree with the comments of others Stuart here on the thread. A Protestant Kaiser has no End of Problems with all those nasty Catholic bishops who refuse to do anything to help the poor Kaiser but all run crying for help when the Ottomans come calling.

More than happy to see of the Ottoman Military in the Rhine Basin to show the Bishops the meaning of the words "Imperial Unity"

TRKL or any other player looking for somewhere to get a taste of the game would I am sure find a "warm" welcome in G2 why start up G9 when so many places are avaliable in this wonderful game.
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Jason on Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:02 pm

As Richard has sent an email round about (among other things) G9, wondered if anyone had been in touch to reserve a position.

Know Richard says it's launch is 'no imminent' so maybe people are holding off for a bit?

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:31 pm

Jason wrote:As Richard has sent an email round about (among other things) G9, wondered if anyone had been in touch to reserve a position.

Know Richard says it's launch is 'no imminent' so maybe people are holding off for a bit?


Perhaps the problem is the same as in other games .......finding someone to play the French.
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Basileus on Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:15 pm

Strangely, in the light of subsequent events, I orriginally asked to play France in game 7, but the position was taken, obviously now Austria in that game. I have asked for a reserved position in game 9 but I have to say this time its not France (think meatballs, pickled herrings and 70's pop supergroups). In game 8 I play the rather badly behaved Tatars, and in Scramble for Empire, the mildly eccentric Germania, but emminently sane in comparison to all my neighbours (no offence fellas).
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by MarkTurner26 on Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:13 pm

Have to say I got a reserved position in G9, and it was you who was causing me issues in Game 8 whilst I was the Russians for a very short amount of time.

Looking forward to G9's start as I got the position I most desired, I shant say what it is yet, its gonna be a surprise. But am very excited and await its start up.
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Basileus on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:31 am

Sorry about the game 8 Mark, didnt know it was you otherwise I would have been better behaved, good luck in game 9. I will keep an eye open when the game starts to try to guess who you will be Question

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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:43 pm

Basileus wrote:Strangely, in the light of subsequent events, I orriginally asked to play France in game 7, but the position was taken, obviously now Austria in that game. I have asked for a reserved position in game 9 but I have to say this time its not France (think meatballs, pickled herrings and 70's pop supergroups). In game 8 I play the rather badly behaved Tatars, and in Scramble for Empire, the mildly eccentric Germania, but emminently sane in comparison to all my neighbours (no offence fellas).

I dont recall any 70's pop supergroups from Denmark Question Think Aqua were a lot later than that.

As for the Germania Govt being sane in comparison to all its neighbours that is true in the same way as saying the Syrian Desert is well watered compared to the Empty quarter in Arabia. I blame the about of about mercury being used by 1850's pox doctors.
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Re: Game 9 Start Up

Post by Ardagor on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:35 pm

But if you go a bit further North there is a country that did have a 70`s pop supergroup. I am certain it will come to you.
I have asked for and now reserved a nation which I have tried before, hopefully I will do a better job this time.

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