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French Uniforms in LGDR7

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:54 pm

Thank you, analysing cavalry combat in terms of phases is very interesting. In the initial clash the lance wins, but after that the curved blade has the advantage. Where it is a case of sword on sword, space is more important for the straight blade and heavy cavalry. A disorganised or loosely spaced heavy cavalry unit should be at a disadvantage over light cavalry armed with a curved blade in restricted space provided the combat is not to lengthy?

I like the tip about greatcoats, though perhaps not for cuirassiers or hussars where their uniform should give them some protection?


it seems like the curved blade will be easier after the initial clash
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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Regor on Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:40 pm

Excellent work TRKL!
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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Jason on Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:10 am

Like Regor said, excellent work TRKL. Smile

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:36 pm

Thank you both. If I get chance I will post some more colonial uniforms which were designed, but not ordered. I am happy to work on ideas for other uniforms if asked.

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French Colonial Uniforms

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:55 pm

I had envisaged colonial forces as being of 3 basic types:

i) Artillery, for permanent garrisons.
ii) Riflemen, again as garrison troops.
iii) Volunteers/Dragoons/Militia, to boost the garrisons even further or to send out on patrols.

I didn't see the need for separate uniforms to distinguish between dragoons and volunteers as flexibility was most important for colonial forces. Volunteers sent out on patrol would be mounted as dragoons if not raised as such. More specialist troops such as grenadiers or engineers could be seconded from European-based armies, but would have kept their European uniforms.

The French Colonial Empire was split into 5 Dominions, each with dedicated troops. The Dominions were:

Africa
India
Canada
Louisiana
Caribbean

Each had their own uniforms with brown leather replacing the black used for European units.


Last edited by The Real Louis of France on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:00 pm

African uniforms



The uniforms give an idea of the relative unit equivalents to the regular European French forces, so the Volunteers with their blue jackets were equivalent to fusiliers, the riflemen wore an olive-green jacket and the Artillery wore black jackets with red breeches.


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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:08 pm

Indian uniforms



In addition colonial cavalry was stationed in India and they deserved their own uniform:



Parrot-green saddle cloths again in tribute to the Duc de Bourgoyne.


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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:11 pm

Canadian uniforms



Lots of fur, but then it is cold in Canada.


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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:15 pm

Louisiana uniforms





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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:17 pm

Caribbean uniforms



Yes, these are the same as Louisiana uniforms. Originally Louisiana and the Caribbean were to be one dominion, but the Duc de Bourgoyne decided to base himself in Martinique and with the additions of the rest of Hispaniola and Jamaica to France, it made sense to have a separate dominion for administrative purposes.



Last edited by The Real Louis of France on Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:22 pm

The Standard of the Duc de Bourgoyne, Viceroy of the Five Dominions of the French Colonial Empire

Colonial forces were also expected to carry the standard of their Viceroy, the Duc de Bourgoyne. This was specially designed with the heraldic symbols as described below:




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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:35 pm

I didn't paint French ships in different colours if they were on colonial service, as the French Navy was intended to be a global service by design.

Pictures and Arms of the Dauphin and Dauphine of France





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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:42 pm

Pictures and Arms of King Louis' Grandsons





There is no arms for the Duc d'Orleans as in the game he died in 1703 without heir and his title reverted to the Crown.



Last edited by The Real Louis of France on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:53 pm

Finally, a drawing of Jean-Baptiste Colbert, the Marquis de Torcy (1665-1746), faithful servant of King Louis, whose tireless work on behalf of his master has brought such amusement in the game.





OK, the picture is actually of his uncle (1619-1683), painted by Charles Abraham Chasselat, but the likeness is uncanny and the style more revealing than the conventional court portrait.


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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:59 pm

Really like the drawing of the French Colonial Uniforms and the picturers of the French Great & Good........I now know exactly who I have to shot........Joke Very Happy

Ref the whole very interesting debates on:

A) What is the best weapon for Cavalry?.......1) Lance? Heavy or Light? 2) Sword & Pistol........and is Rapier or Sabre better? 3) Composite bow 4) Long Fire Arm or 5) Polish Hussar kitchen sink of Lance, X2 Pistols, Carbine, X2 Swords, Axe, plus X2 wagons and 4 to 6 servents per Hussar?

B) Should Infantry use shock tactics or firepower?

C) Should Cavalry Charge at the Gallop or the trot?

D) Are fancy uniforms the best way of helping own morale and making the foe feel inferior?

E) How many ranks should Infantry use?

What players should be aware that there this is not like the replacement of the Musket with the Bolt action rifle........there is no one system which is better than alternatives in all circumstances and your choice should be based on both your positions historic likes/dislikes and on its likely threats.

Early in this thread the RKL came out as a Lancer fan and I am sure Commanders of "Western" Armies in G2 etc who have been brutally treated by Polish Winged Hussars with big nasty lances would agree with him about the evils of Polish Lancers. But in the 1690's the Hussars stopped carrying Lances because a big heavy Lance is no use if you are chaseing Cossack and Tartar Lt Cavalry Raiders.

Likewise some of the Elite French Household Cavalry are equiped with muskets/carbines for their day job of guarding the King since a Lance is not much use against Assasin with a pistol in an upstairs room. Oh and any French Player just has to class the Musketeers as elite Dragoons
and allow them to lead storming parties at Sieges. Ok you might not be happy to use your elite cavalry in this way but the have a reputation as the "bravest of the brave" to live up too.

Pretty much the same can be said about all the other choices........Charge at Gallop is better than the Trot right up to the point your Cavalry charge away from nfantry/artillery support at high speed into a bog/ambush etc on blown horses.

French/Swedish/Ottoman Infantry shock tactics are better then firepower right up to the point that they are either forced to defend or the opposition deploys behind a bog/field works.

Thin ranks are better for fireing and dont suffer as badly from Artillery...........but worse for shock attacks and holding off cavalry attacks from the front.

Basically its a game of Stone/paper/Sissors and the skill is in A) Knowing yourself and B) Knowing your foe and making sure you have the right tools in the right place to do the job.

Finally it has to be said you can have the perfect weapons, perfect drill, heroic morale, able and experienced commanders and really nice Uniforms but if the bog standard opposition hit your Prussians when they are on SL 6 after months in open trenches you are still going to get hammered........is this not correct Jason?

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by J Flower on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:10 am

Yes Stuart your right, you can do your best to prpare your army for everything. then when the war comes you get bogged down in a siege then all the prior preparation goes out the window. Especially when you get attacked by someone who doesn't ven bother declaring war on you, just pops up and gets his troops to swarm all over you.Or you get tangled up against an army that doesn't need to supply itself or pay for itself, as it fights on despite you having control of its financial resources plus all its supply bases. Still there is still the chance that the army will get a chance to revenge itself.

In the debate on weapons / tactics. I come out in favour of the Sabre and Carbine for cavalry, Having looked into reports left from the period, it appears that many cavalry officers thought that once they got in among the lancers then the lancers were useless. Admitted the lance in a terror weapon to look at, however much like the pike, it is possiable to get under it or avoid it. some nations only equipped the front rank of lancer regiments with lancers, because of this. The lance is also very unweildy, a bugger in wet weather, and useless for patrolling.

The speed and weight of charge are both important, as is a compact mass,controlled charges that keep formation seen to have been the flavour of the day. The charge was broken down into several distinct parts with speed gradually being increased as the point of impact is reached. A cardinal sin was to receive a charge at the halt. The best point of attack was to attempt to get on the bridle hand of your opponent as that put him at a distinct disadvantage.

One of the reasons for denser formations of 4 or 5 ranks was also that the files behind the front rank could in theory load weapons and pass them ot the front rank to increase the rate of fire, this is something the French devised. Two ranks were considered too thin to withhold cavalry attacks, plus they were too long to control on the battle field. In hte Napoleonic wars Brits introduced it because units were so weak that they needed to cover the frontage on the battle field and three ranks were using up manpower they didn't have. the average strength of units in the Peninsular was 500 men.

On uniforms I actually went away from all the fancy uniforms, in a way to cut army costs I introduced a standard uniform for infantry and cavalry. Also standardised officers uniforms & cut down on all the gold braid. I have tried issuing new uniforms to units who suffered from low morale, it did absolutly no good what so ever, but regular issues of Schnapps kept everyone happy.

There were a number of differant opinions in the Age of Battles. So I would guess it is only right that there should still be so many varying opinions now. What is clear is that differant circumstances require differant tactics and methods. So maybe draw up a drill book with that in mind. when on the defensive, or in the attack that your troops adopt differant fighting tactics.


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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:18 am

I agree with both of you that there are lots of different choices to be made about weaponry, tactics, and that of course overall condition of the troops is important.

Thank you for your comments and the tactical insight. The French army in G7 was always work in progress, with such tactics being refined depending on performance. I have been criticized for adding so much detail and some of it is justified; however, what the discussion indicates is that these detailed factors do matter and can add another dimension to the game.

Glad you enjoyed the pictures. Very Happy

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by J Flower on Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:28 pm

On the subjet of weaponry,
The Austrians developed a twin barreled musket for there light troops one barrel was a soothbore the other was rifled. I have not been able to find out much about it's effectiveness, has anyone else ?
In theory it is another of those ideas that seem to cater for all possabilities, with long range skirmishing , and a rapid(er) loading for defence against cavalry.
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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Jason on Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:15 am

J Flower wrote:On the subjet of weaponry,
The Austrians developed a twin barreled musket for there light troops one barrel was a soothbore the other was rifled. I have not been able to find out much about it's effectiveness, has anyone else ?
In theory it is another of those ideas that seem to cater for all possabilities, with long range skirmishing , and a rapid(er) loading for defence against cavalry.

I have heard of the weapon, came across a reference to them in regards Austrian light infantry early in the Napoleonic Wars. About all I can recall about it was that it was heavier than a normal musket (which makes sense I guess) and were phased out early in the 1800s.

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by J Flower on Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:59 pm

If they were phased out I suspect they may have been too expensive for the financially strained Austrian Government .

Austrian Light troops also made use of an early form of air rifle I beleive, I have read a reference that Napoleon ordered that anyone captured in possession of one was to be shot. As it was an ungentlmanly weapon in his opinion, due the lack of smoke which norally gave away the position of a gunpowder weapon.

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by J Flower on Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:47 am

I suppose I will have to have a go and see if the clever people at the univercity can develop such a weapon. It was possiable at the time so I guess it should work.
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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Ardagor on Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:02 am

I have tried developing a double-barreled musket some years ago, it was very heavy and quite impracticable for use in the field.

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by J Flower on Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:39 am

Maybe with a shorter barrel, the rifling would ensure accuracy albeit a reduced range, the other barrel is more a clos ein weapon anyway so lack of range would not be a problem, I'll give it a try anyway if I succed then I'll let you know.
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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Jason on Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:36 am

RKL-where did you get the template for the uniforms? Are they easy to produce/colour in (as it were), just thinking could be interesting for others of us who go into this sort of detail in game, to perhaps have a go at doing them for other nations.

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Re: French Uniforms in LGDR7

Post by Guest on Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:14 pm

Most of the basic templates designed by David Linienblatt were found here: http://nba-sywtemplates.blogspot.co.uk/ however I had to modify them extensively. His website is amazing as he has tried to recreate uniforms from the 1750s from historical records. There are literally hundreds of uniforms on there and he has built up the collection over several years. The templates are free to use for non-commercial purposes and instructions on downloading each one is found on the website. It is a long job to scroll through all the various pages and after a while the uniforms all start to look the same. Use the outline templates rather than the coloured ones as 'uncolouring' a template doesn't generally work as you need a clear outline.

I found using the basic outline/shape of the uniform saved a lot of time, but it still needed a lot of work to create solid boundaries so areas could be filled with colour. I don't have a proper graphics package so used Paint which comes with Windows XP. There is information on the site for more professional tools which were used to create them originally.

I also tried to make the uniforms look a bit more 1700 than 1750 and was able to create/edit new hat styles, cuffs, buttons etc. So you won't find all the templates on that site as some are original. I have lots of style templates which I have edited and are ready for colouring. Although the editing can be fiddly, the colouring in is straight forward enough.

You can probably copy the templates straight off this forum (cut/paste), and then just experiment. If you, or anyone else, wants me to check to see if I have a modified template for a particular type of unit or hat style, then pm/email me and I'll have a look.

Of course the historical records from the time are not always clear and colours didn't really become standardised until 1740s-1750s. I have had a look at the English regiments as well and found an incredibly wide variation in colours. There are a lot of records from 1742, but to give you an idea, the 1st Foot had dark blue facings; the 2nd foot had light blue facings; the 3rd foot had buff facings; the 5th foot, green; the 8th foot, yellow; the 17th foot, grey; the 22nd foot, pink; the 24th foot dark grey, but with white linings. There was a logic to the colours (up to a point) as it related to the history of the regiment and whether it was on the English/Irish or Scottish establishment, but trying to mirror those intricacies within LGDR is probably too much even for me. I think if you are going to design uniforms then you can only keep to history up to a point. The simpler objective would be to create a similar look which could be identified as distinctly French (or whichever country you are designing for). And of course it is still work in progress. If I can adapt some new templates which look more authentic then I can start again!


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