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Forms of Address

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J Flower
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Forms of Address

Post by J Flower on Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:36 pm

The use of the correct form of address for the Elector of Hanover I think has been resolved.

Can someone shed some light on terms of Address for members of the clergy both Catholic & Protestant as I think there are some variations between the two?
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Regor
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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Regor on Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:33 am

no I cant but I'd like to know too: just been told off by another player...

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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Guest on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:52 pm

I don't think there is much agreement between styles of address. Some are used more regularly in written form rather than in conversation and much would depend on the character of the individual. Titles have also varied both historically and from country to country. I can provide the Catholic titles which I think were in use in most of Western Europe in 1700, but I don't have a clue about all the different titles Protestants invented.

If it simplifies things, Deacons would be referred to as Reverend although the modern fashion is for Deacons to be referred to as plain Mr.
Priests would be referred to as Father.

A Monsignor is merely a priest who has held a particular post in Rome at some point during his career. The official Reverend Monsignor is a bit of a mouthful, so it is more usual to refer to them as My Lord

The titles due to members of religious orders are very confusing as it depends on the structure of the order. The head of a religious order (for women) would be Mother Superior or Reverend Mother irrespective of her being a Prioress or Abbess. Within a monastic house, the monks would be referred to as Brother or Father if ordained. The Abbot would be referred to as Right Reverend Abbot xyz or more usually My Lord. His deputy, the Prior, would be referred to as The Very Reverend Prior xyz

Bishops and Archbishops are also confusing because it depends on the origins of their See which may have additional forms of address. As a general rule, Bishops would be referred to as Right Reverend or My Lord; Archbishops would be referred to as Most Reverend or Your Grace.

Cardinals are easy: they are referred to as His Eminence. However, it should be remembered that the rank of Cardinal does not necessarily mean its holder has been ordained. It is an honorary rank which in 1700 was open to laymen in minor orders, so there were lay Cardinals, Cardinal-Deacons, Cardinal-Priests, a Cardinal-King (Henry I of Portugal), even secret Cardinals (in pectore) whose identity is known only to the Pope (not even the cardinal may be aware that he has that rank). So there is still plenty of scope to get it wrong. Although some bishops have tried to make members of their own staff Cardinals, only the Pope has that authority and it is usual now for Cardinals to be Deacons, Priests or Bishops.

Of course there are separate titles for those sent by Rome in a diplomatic capacity, e.g. Nuncio, Apostolic Nuncio, Legate, etc who rank as ambassadors, senior in precedence to all ambassadors from secular states.

Well, you did ask! Smile


Last edited by The Real Louis of France on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Regor
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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Regor on Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:57 pm

Neat - thank you - I'm typing up my reply now and this is a real help....
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Jason
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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Jason on Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Thanks Louis, every interesting Smile

I do like the idea of secret cardinals, esp not knowing one is a secret cardinal Very Happy

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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Guest on Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:59 pm

Yes - I must admit I'd heard about in pectore Cardinals, but I assumed it was used simply for internal church matters until I double checked. For instance, if a country banned the Catholic church, then the bishops could be liable to arrest or imprisonment, so a secret cardinal could be appointed to be the link between that country and the Vatican. But I had assumed that the cardinal in question would know he was a Cardinal, else how could he do his job? Silly me - never make any assumptions where the Catholic Church is concerned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_pectore has a good explanation with examples.

I suppose in LGDR it opens up all kinds of possibilities for the Pope. It did seem to be relatively common in 1700 for names to be kept secret for a while, then be revealed at a diplomatically sensitive time. However, to prevent rigging of elections, in pectore Cardinals had to be made known before the Pope who made the appointment died!


Last edited by The Real Louis of France on Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jason
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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Jason on Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:19 pm

Afraid I worked in the public sector too long Louis, when I read the original bit about Secret Cardinals I just imagined it was a case of someone not getting the memo about their 'promotion' after HR lost the paperwork Very Happy
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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Deacon on Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:47 pm

As mentioned, my understanding of In Pectore Cardinals is that they didn't know. Their status as a Cardinal only became real when the appointment was announced and if the pope who made the appointment dies before the announcement the appointment lapses. My understanding is that these appointments were usually because the public pronouncement would likely place the cardinal in danger.

Henry I of Portugal was an unusual case in that as a younger son he wasn't expected to ascend the throne and did take holy orders and was a cardinal when he became next in line. He was released from his orders, but not from his vows of chastity which is part of how the hapsburgs claimed Portugal for a while.

And as pointed out here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lay_cardinal

Lay Cardinals were still clerics, just not necessarily fully ordained priests or bishops.

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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Guest on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:04 pm

Yes Deacon - though the status of lay Cardinals changed in 1917 as the Wikipedia article states.

Jason - I don't know if you've ever read a book by Michael Ayrton called Tittivulus Or The Verbiage Collector, but I think you would really enjoy it. It is based on characters from Medieval mystery plays and chronicles the rise of a not very naughty demon called Tittivulus who journeys through history collecting verbiage. What started off as a relatively innocent pastime rapidly grew taking up several floors of hell much to the annoyance of Mephistopheles. The book was written in 1953, so you might struggle to get hold of a copy at a reasonable price, but it has some great ideas in it. If only someone would update it to the present day!
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Jason
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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Jason on Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:36 pm

Thanks Louis for the recommendation Smile Know a couple of people who were book dealers (before the recession killed them off) will ask them if they know of a source for such a work...
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Deacon
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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Deacon on Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:15 am


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Re: Forms of Address

Post by Guest on Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:55 am


Thanks Deacon - I didn't know it had been reprinted. When I've looked previously the old copies were 15-30+ which is way to much for me to consider! Smile


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