Agema Publications

A forum for the disscussion of the Play by Mail games from Agema Publications


forced tithing in Germany

Share
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1430
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

forced tithing in Germany

Post by Deacon on Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:09 pm


I found this really interesting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581

The world has changed quite a lot from our period, and now the bishops are trying to force people to pay the tithe or be considered non-catholics.

My suspicion is that it will just increase the exodus from the church.

Tough times for the Catholic Church these days.

Guest
Guest

Re: forced tithing in Germany

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:09 am

Deacon, you may not be aware but the BBC is far from impartial when it comes to matters of religion. They would be far happier living under a Marxist state where all kinds of religious expression were banned. It is amazing that the BBC gives up 30 minutes a week on a single channel to screen Songs of Praise, which it does most reluctantly and keeps changing the time every week to discourage viewers and lower ratings.

The article’s headline is misleading and the text contains several distortions, which you appear to have picked up.

1. The tax is not a Catholic levy, i.e. an additional tax, in the manner of historical tithes. It is an apportionment of your overall tax bill. So if you pay tax at 20%, you do not pay any more tax on top simply because you are a Catholic.
2. All that happens is that a proportion of your tax (8%) is remitted to the Church rather than going into a general government pot. If you are a Catholic, then it goes to the Catholic church; if you are a Protestant then it goes to whichever church it is that you belong to. Note that is 8% of the 20%, so it amounts to 1.6% of your income. And for the privilege of collecting it, the German government takes a fee. If you have no religion then the money goes to the state – you do not get a refund!
3. The tax came about after the German government nationalised (stole) church property, so it is perfectly fair that the government should pay some compensation for its actions.
4. The principle of a citizen being able to nominate where some of his tax is spent is accepted in many countries. There is a very similar system in Switzerland. In the UK there was a long running debate over the destination of part of the Trades Union Subscription (the political levy), which had automatically gone to support the Labour party. It was changed at the request of members so that it can be nominated to support any registered charity, including churches. Of course this upset the Marxists at the BBC.

The most objectionable part of the article is the suggestion that church members would be denied the sacraments if they failed to pay this ‘tax’ implying that the Church is in some way only accessible to those who can pay. This is complete rubbish. The church does not sell any item which has been blessed. Access to church services has always been free and unconditional. Indeed, the statement includes this affirmation simply to dispel any fears to the contrary.

Catholics are under a duty to provide financial support to the church according to their ability. What appears to have been happening is that those who work in church schools/hospitals/institutions have been allowing their tax contributions to go elsewhere, rather than support those institutions that employ them! The decree of the German bishops is a reminder to those who have been careless that they should get the paperwork filled in. If it is conditional of being employed that you are a practising Catholic then it seems reasonable to me that you should ask for part of your tax revenue to effectively subsidize your own job! If the same option was generally available, I don’t know anyone who would opt to shut down their own employer. It may well be that certain public authorities in Germany have been registering people automatically as 'non-religious' so the money goes to support their own budgets rather than the church. It is about money, not religion, about paying for the social services provided by the Church. The Catholic Church in Germany is going through a rough patch with considerable resistance to certain changes promulgated in Rome. However, on this at least, the Vatican is fully behind the German bishops and it is disappointing that the story has been so distorted.

There have been similar problems in the UK where because of the interpretation of Labour’s badly written equality laws and the general desire to destroy all religious life in this country, Catholic Adoption Agencies were forced to allow adoption in non-traditional families. The government wanted the agencies to continue their good work (which was paid for by the voluntary contribution of Catholics), but insisted they act against the principles of the faith. The result was that those agencies closed. No collections are made in churches now to support the work of these bodies. I am at a loss to understand who benefits from such stupidity. scratch
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1430
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: forced tithing in Germany

Post by Deacon on Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:00 pm


My understanding is that you're incorrect:

http://www.toytowngermany.com/wiki/German_taxes

the church tax is incremental to your total tax bill. I went looking for a source that would clarify that was not BBC. I admit I'm not a fan of organized religion so I might be blind to that particular bias in the BBC. I tend to like the BBC because they don't have the same crazy bias on US matters that most of our national media do.

My reading of the articles I've read is that the German bishops did want to count the declaration to the tax authority that you were not catholic as a disavowal of faith which would result in excommunication and that the vatican said no, telling the tax man you weren't catholic didn't count, you had to tell a priest. So as a consequence, the german bishops have come up with this variant, no church services if you don't pay. Not exactly excommunication, but something like it.

I googled about catholic adoption in England and got this from a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.lawandreligionuk.com/2012/09/12/catholic-care-and-adoption-by-same-sex-couples-the-story-continues/

So at least here, the state argues, and I can't say if it's true or not, but that the children can be placed in homes through other agencies, and that the denial of potential parents to the children is a detriment to them.


Guest
Guest

Re: forced tithing in Germany

Post by Guest on Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:56 pm

I'm not going to enter into a long debate over a news report which is nothing to do with the game. If you read the comments on the story from the BBC's own site you will find many views from those directly affected in Germany who understand how this works and which are critical of the way the story has been presented. I can only re-iterate that no one pays to attend church. No one is turned away from Catholic services. Moreover you are causing great offence to Catholics, myself included, if you are suggesting otherwise. Please apologise.

In respect of Catholic Adoption Agencies the state has always argued that the loss of a few Catholic agencies is a price worth paying for them to inflict their misguided views on people of faith, despite there being provision under the act for various exemptions to be made. The legal definition of a family is different to the definition accepted by the Catholic church. This is not merely an English issue, but worldwide. It is still very much a live political issue and Catholics have been reminded by pastoral letters from their bishops of their duty to uphold the place of the family and vote accordingly. Although you may be exempt from the laws of England, I am not, and if I was to discuss the Catholic view of those equality laws then I may find myself on a criminal charge under those very laws. Providing a link from a law report is meaningless as since when have lawyers acting on behalf of a government determined matters of theological principle concerning the Catholic Church? The Catholic Bishops of England and Wales were united in their opposition to the changes. The bishops' letter is here:

http://www.catholic-ew.org.uk/Home/News-Releases/January-March/Archbishops-Letter-on-Marriage

I hope I will always, out of charity, explain to those like you who seek to understand the Catholic faith. But I have no intention of being provoked into an inflammatory debate which could land me with a jail sentence simply so you can repeat anti-Catholic bias, even if it is from the BBC. I am sure you understand.
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1430
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: forced tithing in Germany

Post by Deacon on Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:39 pm


Sorry this winds you up so much, but I don't think I've said anything offensive.

I just went and looked again and all the evidence I can find insists that the church tax in Germany is incremental to your tax bill (and in fact makes the point that this incremental tax is deductible) and that people who tell the tax man they have left the church pay less in total tax.

I will, however, drop the discussion, as you seem to wish to pick a fight where there is none.


Frank
Baron
Baron

Number of posts : 91
Age : 43
Location : Nürnberg, Germany
Reputation : 6
Registration date : 2009-11-29

Re: forced tithing in Germany

Post by Frank on Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:15 pm

Would you really want to talk about german tax law? Trust me it is very very complicated. lol!
70% of the worldwide published books about tax law is written in german. Rolling Eyes

We are even forced to pay €17,98 per month for watching the public broadcasting. And this even if you have no tv at home. affraid
avatar
Ardagor
Duke
Duke

Number of posts : 355
Age : 47
Location : Haugesund, Norway
Reputation : 12
Registration date : 2008-04-20

Re: forced tithing in Germany

Post by Ardagor on Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:45 pm

The BBC is the best of the foreign channels in my opinion.

In Norway we pay about 25€ a month for watching public broadcasting, if you have a TV.

If you buy a TV or a DVD player etc the store will send a report to the government and you will receive a bill in the post after a while unless you are already registered as owning and paying for a TV.
avatar
Kingmaker
Admin
Admin

Number of posts : 1597
Age : 60
Location : Scarborough Jewel of the East Coast
Reputation : 24
Registration date : 2008-04-20

Re: forced tithing in Germany

Post by Kingmaker on Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:43 pm

lets all remember that this is a game and no intentional slurs or abuse is intended.

Please keep it in context to the game and try not to cross over into real world issues that can cause problems...

Thanks


_________________
Lt Colonel, Commander of the Tsars Personal Bodyguard


J Flower
King
King

Number of posts : 738
Age : 46
Location : Paderborn, Germany
Reputation : 13
Registration date : 2012-02-16

Re: forced tithing in Germany

Post by J Flower on Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:35 am

Frank has a very good point. Please, please, please leave the German Tax system out of this forum. It is bad enough having to pay into it. I play the game as a way to relex & enjoy life a bit more. So having the horror of the tax system put in front of me here as well is almost too much.

If you don't pay church tax, then they simply put you in another tax group for the non-Catholics, so you still end up paying. I still pay the same amount of tax as my fellow workers.

Plus it appears to have provoked some bad feelings between people, I am not here to judge either point, but if some one feels insulted then we should respect that persons views & beleifs.

Sponsored content

Re: forced tithing in Germany

Post by Sponsored content


    Current date/time is Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:48 pm