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Hussars

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Jason
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Hussars

Post by Jason on Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:59 pm

How do we raise Hussars in-game? I have seen various references to them but can't seem to find any details on how to raise them in the supplements or on the wiki.

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Re: Hussars

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:12 pm

This one I can answer!

For France I raised them as SC (cost the same as dragoons: 150 recruits, £7,500 to raise, takes 3 months. Yearly upkeep £5,000), but of course with appropriate uniforms. The entry does suggest that true SC can only be raised from suitable races, but that didn't seem to be a problem for France.
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Re: Hussars

Post by Basileus on Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:24 pm

They are light cavalry. However, they will vary in which country you raise them and the tradition of the country. I suppose a bit similar to saying you can raise anything and give it a name. Doesnt mean that it will be any good. England would have hussars in 1800 because they were fashionable as a concept. Doesnt mean that they would be any good and certainly not any good in 1700.
Probably wrong about this but I think that Hussars orriginally started from the Tatars who settled in Lithuania (roughly about 1300/1400 if I recall) and swore allegiance to the Polish/Lithunian commonwealth. They were a form of light cavalry which were fast and useful to the Poles. Winged hussars in Poland were a form of heavy cavalry- heavy horses, lots of weapons including lances and called winged because they wore wings made of feathers to intimidate their enemies - seems to have worked in particular against the Turks. It was also I believe a land owning class but by 1700 starting to become a bit outdated but at one time considered to be the best cavalry in Europe.
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Re: Hussars

Post by Jason on Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:32 pm

Thanks Louis, very useful Smile For the example I'm thinking of, it would be like with France, more about form and appearance than from the appropriate race Wink

Also, thanks Basileus, again very useful. For the purpose I'm thinking, the nation in question had a small number of 'Hussar' units in the 1750s so I'm just bringing them forward by a few years. They appear to have gone for the look of 'real' Hussars but drawn from different stock.

I wasn't sure if Hussars were actually a separate type of unit rather than being SC with a different name and clothing Smile

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Re: Hussars

Post by Guest on Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:52 pm

Basileus is right about the Polish Winged Hussars - amazing uniforms, real heavy lance-armed cavalry.

True Hussars are really Hungarian light cavalry, and it was in Hungary that they were extensively raised as a unit type. However, the fashion spread to many countries by 1700. France first raised them in 1692, Bavaria slightly earlier. Prussia raised them in 1721, though Frederick the Great popularised their use. UDP/GB didn't copy them until the Napoleonic period. Whether any of the units were really as effective as Hungarian originals, I don't know. You might simply end up with light cavalry wearing fancy uniforms instead of Hussars. Haven't got as far as researching French hussars regiments yet!

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Re: Hussars

Post by J Flower on Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:38 am

The size of the recruit was an important factor as well ( not important in Game terms) The smaller recruits were pushed into the Light Regiments wether foot or mounted.

Light Dragons, Mounted Jager, Cheveuxleger, are all light cavalry that would carry out the same role as Hussars. The more flambouyant Uniforms of the Hussars does make them stand out.

you can raise SC or eSC, give them the Hussar title, maybe give some uniform details to fill them out a bit as well. It was fashionable to have a few Regiments in the army. So are you about to become a fashion victim?

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Re: Hussars

Post by Guest on Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:13 pm

A Short History of French Hussars

French Hussar regiments tended to be recruited from foreigners and disbanded or merged with each other as numbers fluctuated. As with the dragoon regiments, they changed names frequently under different colonels. Trying to trace the history of French Hussar regiments has been almost impossible, and even the current French Hussar regiments (yes they do exist!) recognise that they have lost historical links. Uniform details are from the Osprey Louis XV (4) Light Troops and Specialists by René Chartrand. Regimental details are from French internet sources.

The first hussar regiment to be raised was the Hussars-Royaux in 1692, from Hungarian Hapsburg deserters. It was disbanded in 1698, but elements transferred to the Royal-Allemand Cavalry until 1705 when the Versailles Hussars was created. In 1701 the Saint-Géniez Hussars appeared, renamed as the Rattsky Hussars in 1707. Rattsky was sent to France by Prince Ferenc Rakoczi in 1707 to fight against the Hapsburgs and the regiment served under Marshall Villars with distinction.

Unfortunately it looks like the regiment could have been disbanded by the regent, Phillippe d’Orleans, in 1716 when he dismissed 25,000 soldiers in an economy measure. However, some sources suggest that in 1716 the Versailles Hussars merged into the Rattsky Hussars, who may have merged into the Hussards de Bercheny. The uniforms were sky blue dolman (possibly with small pointed red cuffs), white flat lace, three rows of pewter buttons, red sash, long sky blue breeches, red overalls, wolf-skin pelisse, red cap with fur turn-up and cock’s feather, blue cotton shirt, soft leather knee boots and buff sabretache.

The Hussards de Bercheny were raised 1719-20 by the Comte de Bercheny from pro-French Hungarians who hated the Hapsburgs. The Regent (Phillippe d’Orleans) didn’t like the idea of Hussars and refused to give them horses. To further demonstrate his contempt, he sent them to enforce a cordon around Marseilles to protect the rest of France from an outbreak of plague. Unfortunately for Phillippe, the regiment survived and was granted its horses, whereupon he expelled them from France to foreign service in Constantinople. They were used primarily as scouts or for convoy escort. They made their debut on the battlefields 1733-36 during the War of the Polish Succession serving as part of Berwick’s army at the sieges of Kehl and Phillipsburg. In the War of the Austrian Succession (1741-48) it won honours at Prague and Dettingen, and from this point was accepted into the French army. They became the 1st Hussars in 1791.

Hussards d’Esterhazy – generally considered to be the 3rd Hussars regiment to be founded (in date order) has a confusing name. It was established in 1735 in Strasbourg by Count Esterhazy (there was a second Esterhazy Hussars created in 1764 which was renamed the 3rd hussars in 1791). It was renamed in 1743 as the David Hussars (after Chevalier Zsigmond David, its commander). In 1747 it was renamed the Turpin Hussards (after Count Lancelot Turpin Crissé of Sanzay), which is a great name given the highwayman (who may well have made a good hussar) was executed for horse theft only a few years before! In 1761 the new colonel was the Marquis André-Claude Chamborant of Claviere, so it became the Chamborant hussars. However, just to be really confusing in 1791 it was named as the 2nd Hussars, the “2nd Houzard Chamborant Hussars” or “Brown Brothers” after the colour of the horses. The first 5 hussar regiments were described by the old term “Houzard” in memory of the first Hungarian hussar squadrons.
The regiment served as scouts along the Rhine in the War of the Polish Succession (1735), to put down a revolt on Corsica (1739), at the Battle of Dettingen (1743) and in Flanders under Marshall Saxe at the Battle of Lawfeld (1747) where King Louis XV was impressed by its performance.


Though getting to be a little outside the LGDR period, those involved in the 1740s are …

Hussards de Beausobre, raised 1743 was incorporated into Bercheny, Turpin and Polleresky from 1756.
Hussards de Raugrave raised 1743 converted to heavy cavalry in 1756.
Hussards de Polleretzky raised 1743
Hussards de Ferrari raised 1745 was incorporated into Bercheny, Turpin and Polleresky from 1756.
Hussards de Nassau-Saarbruck raised 1756 as Volontaires. In 1758 these became the Royal Nassau Hussars.
Hussards d’Esterhazy – 2nd formation, raised 1764


French Hussars as they are most familiar are really a Napoleonic creation, but it is perhaps a tribute to their tenacity that they survived through the century before. It is also rather comforting that so many foreigners volunteered to raise regiments at their own expense to fight on the side of France against domineering Hapsburgs. The French authorities may not have wanted this help, indeed actively discouraged it, but who else could men of principle rally around? It seems that like it or not, only France could sort out the mess that Europe had created for itself. France didn't want the role any more than Britain did in the twilight of Empire, but was obliged to take on the burden, at least until Europe had proved itself capable of attending to its own affairs.
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Re: Hussars

Post by Jason on Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:47 pm

Thanks that that Louis, a interesting summary of their history.

Jason-I am a fashionable chap don't you know Wink
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Re: Hussars

Post by Ardagor on Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:01 pm

The Hussar uniforms was also changed a bit when entering western Europe, all in the name of fashion.
The uniforms became quite a bit impractical and uncomfortable in the process however.

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Re: Hussars

Post by J Flower on Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:01 pm

Have gotten my hands on a copy of Historische Uniformen by Liliane & Fred Funken ISBN 3-572-01224-4, I htink there must be an English or French translation out there somewhere as I remember a similar book back in my distant school days in the Library.

Maybe I can elaborate a bit on Louis' Creation of the Hussars in French service, apparently in the Thirty years war Hungarian Exils served as auxilary troops, from !636 they were commanded by György Esterhazy, apparently no one was quite sure ow to employ them tactically.
In 1691 the hussars were in a bit of a bad state, however one Hussar presented himself to Marschall Luxembourg an offered to undertake with 20 fellow Hussars an attack on the enemies supply lines . The operation was so successful that the king gave tohe order to raise as many hussars as could be from among the Hungarian refugees.

The first Regiment was indeed the Kings Hussars, they were raised in Strassbourg, they were entrusted to a German"Baron" who swore he was actually a Hungarian, his name was Kronenberg or Corneberg depending on the sources.

They were disbanded in 1697 ( peace of Rijswijk) 150 of the 300 riders went to Regt. Royal Allemand.

Apparently they carried axes to allow them to bring throphies home, ie the heads of there enemies.This was apparently not looked upon as abnormally barbaric, indeed the source I am quoting from goes on to point out the Barbarity of the greek & albanish partisans in WW2 as an indication of the culture which stems from that region.
Even in the 1700s A warhammer was carried by officers as a mark of rank.

I hop ethat has added a little to the entry by Louis.

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Re: Hussars

Post by Stuart Bailey on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:19 pm

I think in the original rules Hussars could only be raised in Hungary and since you had to pay them as horse rather than Skirmish cavalry were considered a cut above their usual Turkish foe and other types of light Skirmish.

I think this was intended to give Austrian/Hungarian Regulars a edge over irregular skirmish Cavalry Raiders.

In later versions of the rules Hussars have just become part of the general mass of skirmish-light cavalry and if you want to make your Hussars better than Cossacks for instance you have to make them elite or provide extra drill etc.

"Hussar" units outside of their homeland were generally started by Hungarian and Polish exiles and often had a bad reputation beng viewed by many as "Bandits on Horseback" however in most places they seem to have become regular light cavalry and filled their ranks with native horsemen rather than Hungarian and Polish deserters. Indeed helped by their ultra fashionable Uniforms with often became units of high social status.

The Osprey Book on Frederick the Great's Army (1) gives uniform details etc of the various Hussar units in the Prussian Army inc the 8th (Red) Hussars & the 5th Black or Death Hussars.

In Military terms the Austrians seem to have used their Light Troops Hussars, Croats, Pandors etc to keep the Turkish Arnaut Snipers away from their formed troops and to oppose raiding. When they started making greater use of these troops from their eastern frontier in the West their Prussians and French opponents were forced to raise Light troops to fight this war of "posts & outposts"

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Re: Hussars

Post by J Flower on Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:01 am

Hussars in French service came from Hungarian stock at least originally.

France also had Jager zu Pferd, from German emigrants during the Thirty years war.

So it seemed the Nationality may have dictated the type of troops raised, or at the very least the title they carried.

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Re: Hussars

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:04 am


Thank you all for your comments, any corrections gratefully appreciated.

The hussar uniform does look splendid and was probably thick enough to afford protection to the shoulder, but I can understand Ardagor's point about it being slightly impractical. Perhaps the axe was carried over the other shoulder to balance the rider up?

There is a tie-in to the dragoons which I didn't mention. In terms of social rank, the dragoons were looked down upon by all other cavalry, but the hussars were looked down upon by the dragoons. As Stuart points out, it was perhaps their bandit heritage. I suppose as a unit it would be better to be used outside the main structure of the army for special duties, rather than be snubbed and unappreciated!

I haven't studied 30YW foreign troops in any detail, but Jason's account does make a great deal of sense. Even into the 1700s it was common practice for foreign nobles to raise units (or perhaps small bands of men) at their own expense and present themselves for service with France. This was done as a way of obtaining an audience with King Louis or perhaps obtaining a post in the French army. It was not always the case that the person who raised the unit commanded it in the field. The noble backer hung around Versailles in the hope that his unit would distinguish itself on the field of battle. With the fragmented nature of Balkan society, this may be how the hussar regiments maintained a presence so far from home. I suppose it is similar to what happened in the English Civil War, with lots of local contingents being raised to fight on one side or the other. It is easier to understand in a civil war, and for similar reasons within the 200+ small independent baronies making up the HRE during the 30YW period. Sounds like I'd better start researching Jager zu Pferd next!

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Re: Hussars

Post by J Flower on Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:33 pm

The Illistration I have seen shows a broad bladed axe hanging from the front of the saddle on the Right hand side, think along similar lines to those carried by the Farriers during trooping of the colour.

Part of the appeal of the Hussars was there infamous activities, they wer notorious as plunders & havoc makers, that in some circles was looked down upon whereby in others the adventurous lifestyle found a glamourous outlook among many.

As I have said before the Dragoon was very much the poor mans cavalry. It is also worth noting that the officers in houshold troops of France & England ( no details about other nations, sorry) Enjoyed a status of rank two steps above the line regiments so a Guards Captain would rank as a Lt. Col of the line. Especially interestinsg as it raised the fees paid for commissions in those elite regiments considerably.

If you are interested in hte Jager zu Pferd , then there was also at the beginning of the 18th century a mountain Fusilier unit, they were initially the only light infantry avaliable to France but in 1727 a number of volenteer units were raised for the "small war" or "Guerilla war" to name a couple the Sächsische Dragoner, Fischersche Jager both raised in 1743.

Hope it will help you pass a bit of time researching them.
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Re: Hussars

Post by Jason on Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:46 pm

Thanks for the comments folks and the extremely detailed info. My original reason for asking the question was doing some research into the Hanoverian army and came across units it had in the SYW (ok, a little after our period but well...) and so learnt about their own Hussar unit

http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Luckner%27s_Hussars

Interesting that, as it grew, it went from foreign to Hanoverian in makeup

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Re: Hussars

Post by Guest on Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:36 pm

I don’t know much about the Hanoverian army, but did come across a few notes which could be useful. Apparently in the period up to 1700, Hanover regularly provided mercenaries for the Hapsburgs (against the Turks), for UDP (against France in Flanders), and for Venice. The Electoral Prince of Hanover married Sophie Dorothea of Celle, so the armies of Hanover and Celle increasingly operated as one in the early 1700s. In 1705, Hanover had 10 battalions of infantry and 18 squadrons of cavalry; Celle had 10 battalions of infantry and 14 squadrons of cavalry.

There is a breakdown of individual units here:

http://www.spanishsuccession.nl/armies_ha/hanover_infantry_regiments.html

If you follow the link down to the bottom of the page it gives another source (old German book) which may help you researching other regiments.

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Re: Hussars

Post by J Flower on Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:23 am

Jasons comment about Hanovers Hussaren Regiment changing over time from forgien nationals into a native unit is something that would have happened more often in the period, simply because the supply of replacements from hte original source was no longer there or was insufficent to meet demands. The famous Marmadukes of Napoleons army were gradually over time replaced with non Egyptian recruits, yes the uniform & Regimental name stayed the same but the make up of its rank & file moved on. In modern times even in the British army there is a degree of this, anyone visiting the "Irish" Guards would be amazed at the number of Scouse accented Irishmen they find there.

To a certain extent the initial roots of the units are not lost, but remaining true to the national makeup is nigh on impossiable.

There is in the game little made of desertion, and or soldiers being discharged because of age or infirmaty, these would all have an effect on units.
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Re: Hussars

Post by Jason on Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:36 pm

Good point...but I guess it might be about simplicity of play/GM-ing that sees it left out?


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Re: Hussars

Post by Stuart Bailey on Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:00 pm

A bit out of our usual period but I was reading about the Swedish Army of the 7 Years War which also had one regiment of Hurrars with a 2nd one established in 1761. One Yellow Regt & One Blue one same as Swedens National colours.

These troops came from Swedens German Speaking provinces and the language of command was German and their drill was Prussian.

One recruit into his Brother in laws Hussar Regt was a 15 year old Count Blucher who was rapidly taken POW in 1760 with the Prussian 8th Hussars. Showing the style of a true Swashbuckler character young Blucher then joined the Prussian 8th Hussars and finished up as a Field Marshal and National Hero.

Actually joining a Hussar Regt has several advantages for a people who want to Swash their Backle. As well as the really trendy and fashionable Uniform which causes the ladies to swoon many Countries use their Hussars in the Prussian style for pursuit of a defeated foe. Result.........who gets to loot the opponents camp/baggage trains first? The Hussars! Having been in the mess of the English Royal Hussars Regt which seems to have spent a lot of time looting (I mean fighting) in Spain & India I can confirm that some of these Hussar units did rather well out of this tactical role.

No doubt Dragoon types like that Flower Chap will make sniffy comments about bandits, looters etc.......clearly sour grapes. Pursuit is a vital Military job.

The only downside to putting your Swashbuckler into the Hussars is the view expressed by the French Hussar General that any Hussar who was not dead by the time he was 30 was clearly a scoundral.

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Re: Hussars

Post by J Flower on Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:52 am

Ah, Mr Bailey spoken as a true member of the Heavy Maschinegun Corp.

I can agree that making the ladies swoon is obviously of major military importance,

The bandit stigma attached to Hussars may be a little sterotye, apparently the French Hussars were towards the end of the period reknown for the strict disipline impossed upon them. Also interesting that in French service the language of Command in Hussar Regiments was also German.

I would also like to put to the defence of the Queens Dragoon Guards that it was only the one goat. Wheras the Hussars have a reputation far exceeding that minor crime.
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Re: Hussars

Post by Jason on Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:53 pm

Hmmm...so on one side we have Mr Bailey and his roguish Hussars, who like nothing more than a bit of murder, plunder and rape...on the other Mr Flower and the Dragoons, who are sensible chaps who want to be in bed by nine at night with a cup of coco and whose idea of a wild night out is line-dancing...

There seems only one way to solve this...FIGHT!

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Re: Hussars

Post by J Flower on Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:24 pm

Ok, Handbags at dawn it is.


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Re: Hussars

Post by Stuart Bailey on Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:30 pm

Surely no true Hussar or Gentleman knows what dawn looks like? Unless one refers to the bar maid at one's favourite watering hole?

If so what has poor Dawn done to get hand bags thrown at her?

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Re: Hussars

Post by Jason on Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:58 am

Surely a true Hussar or Gentleman does know what Dawn is...it's the time they go to bed...

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Re: Hussars

Post by J Flower on Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:28 pm

They don't like being out in the light of day, people may recognise them for what they are.....

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