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Black Carabiniers

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J Flower
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Black Carabiniers

Post by J Flower on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:14 am

Following recent discussions on Hussars/Dragoons, I have found details of a unit in Prussian service in the SYW.

The "Schwarzer Karabinier von Schaumburg-Lippe"

Wearing Black armour, (including Leather Shoulder & upper arm protection) Black long leather coats under the armour, black helmets with a black bearskin turban.Mounted on Black Horses. They were classified as Light Cavalry, respected by friend & foe alike. The French gave them the nickname the Black Devils from Bückburg.

Their Comander was Johann Kasimir von Monbewitz who was a Pole by birth.

They were well trained & respected horsemen. Taking part in scouting, skirmishing & raiding.

Unfortunatly they were only small in number some 75 riders & about 50 Jager.

Maybe such a unit or it's raising would be interesting for someone who plays in hte Swashbuckler game, technically it is too small to exsist in game, but as a roving band in Swashbuckler it may have some merit.
If anyone can find out any more about this obscure unit I would be interested to hear about them.

I suppose they could be raised in Game as eSc with Cuirass, not sure how that would work in game as the two would seem to be at odds with one another
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Jason
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Jason on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:49 am

The Swashbuckler idea is an interesting one! It would also help recreate in game the way some of these small units moved around. I came across a couple of similar small cavalry units for Hanover in SYW who started out in dutch service (for example) who then switched...

I don't think this adds anything but I think it is the same unit?
http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=B%C3%BCckeburg_Carabiniers


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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:42 pm

Napoleon created armoured Sappeurs who wore iron cuirasses painted black and medieval-style helmets to protect them against snipers whilst digging. I don't know of any other examples of painted metal being used, but I suppose it opens up the possibility of some very interesting uniforms. From a distance cuirasses stand out, so I suppose disguising them with the same colour as the rest of the uniform could lead an enemy to mistake them as lighter cavalry.

I have found something more about Bückeburg, though: http://nba-sywtemplates.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/fusilier-of-schaumburg-lippe-buckeburg.html

"The fusiliers of Schaumburg-Lippe-Bückeburg infantry regiment were 8 companies (c.820 men) raised in 1751 by Graf Wilhelm von Schaumburg-Lippe. Schaumburg-Lippe was the smallest allied state but contributed quite heavily for its size, providing very good artillery, a miner company, an infantry regiment and a mounted carabinier company. The infantry regiment fought entirely in the western theatre against the French and was at the siege of Minden 1758, the battle of Krefeld 1758, the battle of Lutterberg 1758, the battle of Minden 1759 and the battle of Vellinghausen 1761, as well as other actions. According to Mollo, the unit eventually became entirely an artillery guard unit.

Most depictions seem to rely on a Knötel plate showing Schaumburg-Lippe units in 1765, later than the SYW; Mollo's picture of a soldier of this unit differs in showing pure white pompom and bobs, a black stock, buttons on the cuffs and no buttons on the left side of the coat. Belts were white, cartridge box black leather, scabbards brown, sword hilt brass with brass fittings on the scabbard, shoes black leather.
"

For the purposes of LGDR, I think there has to be a compromise between the historical strength of a regiment and making it a viable regiment for combat. Raising single cavalry squadrons risks their total destruction in a skirmish, whereas standardising on 5 or more squadrons makes more sense. I faced the same problem when I raised the musketeers in France. Historically they were only 2 squadrons, grey and black, but it seemed pointless to raise them as individual units rather than as a usable size for battle. I faced a similar situation with infantry where many regiments were single battalions of infantry so I tended to upgrade them in size to a sensible minimum. That way I could always raise replacements and promote battalions who were successful in combat. By 1700 France was leading the way in adopting a regimental structure in the army. Before 1650 armies were primarily mercenary groups with loyalty to their officer rather than to any particular cause. The experience of the Fronde led Louis to insist on regular French troops who owed their loyalty to him rather than mercenaries. He did have foreign units in French service, but these were primarily from foreign recruits loyal to France rather than mercenaries. Some historians suggest that this was a major reason why French troops performed better than their enemies who still relied on mercenaries well into WSS. This is not to deny the quality of some mercenary troops, but simply that they lacked the sense of purpose and shared history which being part of a regiment helps foster.


J Flower
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by J Flower on Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:45 pm

Russian Cuirassier also had Black armour, although the rest of the uniform was white.

I think from memory that the Bavarian Lifeguard had differant uniforms for each troop, or was it maybe squadron, maybe that would be a way of raising these smaller units put them in squadron size units with individual uniform details but organise them into Regiments for game purposes.
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Jason on Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:20 pm

Schaumburg-Lippe is a fascinating little country and seems to have maintained a large army for its size (apparently 17,000 inhabitants and yet an army of 1,000+); almost a shame it doesn't really exist in game, would have been a fun army to recreate.

Like Louis I have often faced that problem over the desire to recreate a historical army v creating viable formations. I too have tried the same solution, standardised taticals sizes though in several of the smaller positions I've played, with limited budgets and recruit bases, this doesn't always work-to get a good mix of units in an army I have had to accept small sizes of said units.

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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by J Flower on Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:51 pm

The Schaumburg-Lippe army was able to survive because it acted as a mercenary compamy, serving Hanover & Prussia mainly.

The Nassau Regiments also make some nice reading, albeit they ahd a more prominant role in the Napoleonic period.It is also interesting as a table top gamer because you can raise the whole army at not too great a cost.
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Jason on Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:05 pm

It is tempting to raise it in game...as a small independent field force...

Going back to the original topic unit. It is too small historically to be raised in game, I wonder though if you did want to do it if once raised as one squadron, could you order half of it to be retrained and re-equipped as a foot force (light infantry) with half remaining mounted? Would be expensive and time consuming but for fun...alternatively raise it as two squadrons and once raised order one squadron re-equipped and retrained to be a foot unit (effectively as an independent light company), just for novelty value?
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Jason on Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:15 pm

There are a number of similar size Hanoverian units from the SYW that (recruits allowing) I might attempt to raise in-game so will try out these ideas to see if they work...eventually...

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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Guest on Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:48 pm

Jason wrote:Raising it as two squadrons and once raised order one squadron re-equipped and retrained to be a foot unit (effectively as an independent light company)?

Should work better than trying to split units and training half as one kind and half as another. Doesn't get round the problem of having the unit wiped out in 1 battle though. Presumably they could be raised as dragoons and 1 unit ordered to fight on foot whilst the other rode? Do let us know how you get on if you decide to try this out. I'm curious!
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Kingmaker on Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:04 pm

Very interesting... myhaps an idea for me...


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J Flower
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by J Flower on Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:16 am

maybe rather than being wiped out they would suffer a high Sickness Level or loss of Moral, allowing the "core" unit to be kept, But needing to be brought back to effectivness with new recruits.
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Jason on Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:02 pm

I did think that in one game (G7?) Richard had introduced rules that meant a unit could lose men but not be wiped out.

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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Guest on Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:15 pm

Not so, in G7 the 17th Lancers (5Lr) was completely destroyed at Orleans when it was sacrificed by the commander on the ground to save time for him to get his artillery out of the undefended town. It wasn't what I ordered, but the regiment no longer exists. Of course there is nothing to stop someone creating a new one with the same name from 'fragments' of the original. It was also quite common for full units (parts of regiments) to be lost during combat rather than simply having a high sick list.
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Jason on Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:34 pm

Ahh, ok, maybe it was in G6 or G8 then but I am positive that there was/is a game where Richard does have a rule in place so a unit could lose part of its strength and not its whole.
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Kingmaker on Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:02 pm

yes there is they can be resupplied with recruits from your pool I believe


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Jason
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Re: Black Carabiniers

Post by Jason on Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:10 pm

Thanks Km, that's the rule I'm thinking of!

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