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Change of Governing Style

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MarkTurner26
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Change of Governing Style

Post by MarkTurner26 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:42 am

This has been plaguing my mind for a while and I wonder if anyone can enlighten me with thoughts suggestions or even just a slap in the face telling me not to be so stupid.

Has anyone tried to change there nations style of government say from an autocratic state to one of a constitutional monarchy as an example.

I know the potential ramifications of such an act but would like to know if others have tried it and what happened to them.

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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by count-de-monet on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:52 am

I dont think I have seen this occur in game, but I have seen a nation change its lead religion (actually both times England going from Protestant to Catholic under a Jacobite restoration). I would imagine that would be a harder task to complete ?

Thinking about it quickly, I would guess going from an autocratic state to a constitutional monarchy would be easier because you are effectively giving more control to your nobles which they would love. Going from a consitutuional monarchy to an autocratic/despot monarchy would almost certainly lead to a civil war of sorts. So have the majority of the army and navy on your side !
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Jason
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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Jason on Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:30 pm

Wasn't there a France in one game that had the revolution 75 years early? So despotic monarchy to despotic despots Don't think it lasted that long...
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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Deacon on Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:42 pm


I think in period you have to realize that most of the absolute monarchies if they moved to constitutional monarchies would be just ceding power from themselves to the nobles. It would be hard, and probably not work to try to make a more true democratic society.

Other than perhaps interest in how Richard would make your life hell, I'm not sure why you'd want to!
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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Kingmaker on Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:02 pm

Jason wrote:Wasn't there a France in one game that had the revolution 75 years early? So despotic monarchy to despotic despots Don't think it lasted that long...

yes game 2 did but they overthrew that and replaced it with the king again and the position was split between 2 players who ended up going to war with each other France v its colony's. I supported the Colony player (I was Russia) as the France player was rude to me.......


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Jason
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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Jason on Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:27 pm

Kingmaker wrote:
Jason wrote:Wasn't there a France in one game that had the revolution 75 years early? So despotic monarchy to despotic despots Don't think it lasted that long...

yes game 2 did but they overthrew that and replaced it with the king again and the position was split between 2 players who ended up going to war with each other France v its colony's. I supported the Colony player (I was Russia) as the France player was rude to me.......

Ahh, thanks Smile Couldn't remember the details.

I suspect that at the end of the day, going back to Mark's original question, unless the change is forced on you for some reason, or you feel there is a real need for the change, it's not worth it!
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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Kingmaker on Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:55 pm

the player who did it made the monarchy look bad with the express intention of removing the King and making him self president etc.


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Jason
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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Jason on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:05 pm

I wonder if a character, playing within Swashbuckler, could become the leader of such a revolution?
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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Deacon on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:37 pm

You might be able to start that way, but I think you'd end up needing a full position. I didn't get to play many turns of swashbuckler, but the actions were very limited as you might imagine.
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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Jason on Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:50 pm

Must admit Deacon, not really thought too much about the limits on what can and can't be done in Swashbuckler...but as I've said elsewhere, as a game version, I doubt it's one for me...I'd end up being an accountant Very Happy
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MarkTurner26
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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by MarkTurner26 on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:25 pm

Thanks guys for the input, honestly I am not sure whether I was going to do this or not and honestly am undecided, I do a lot of things for fun.

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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:29 pm

Jason wrote:Must admit Deacon, not really thought too much about the limits on what can and can't be done in Swashbuckler...but as I've said elsewhere, as a game version, I doubt it's one for me...I'd end up being an accountant Very Happy

Pirate ships, slavers and merc companies all need good accountants pirat so hope for you yet!

Mind you is it safer for our hero to face Richards traditional three thugs or get the blame for a lot of missing triad cash?

Going back to original post I have seen lots of Germans try to amend the constition of the Holy Roman Empire with mixed success and one French Revolution which was just crazy.

But the real nightmare constitution which badly needs to be changed if the player(s) is to get the best out of the position and be able to rival Russia, Sweden, Austria, The Ottomans etc in Eastern Europe is the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Since the Pacta Conventa and the Nobles right of veto is a nightmare to deal with........even worse than dealing with the Janissary Corp or getting the French Nobles to pay tax!

I suspect to get change you would either need various Polish/Cossack players working in co-operation or a major disaster. Has anyone had a go?
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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Deacon on Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:29 am



The polish thing is a mess. The only thing I can think that would work is either you're strong enough, or have enough agents that every time a pole exercises his veto, he dies. You'd probably have to go through a number before the rest agreed to amend the rules on vetoes...

If you're looking for an interesting government change challenge, that would be it. Fixing that would be a major accomplishment.

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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by J Flower on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:35 am

With the French Revolution in G2 it may well have failed because the player simply tried to impliment Napoleonic tactics- Skirmish screens columns of attack etc, without actually having a revolution to evoke the spirit of the revolution. Yes the King was dead, but the people were not the cause. Maybe if the support had been there then it would have turned out differently. Instead it was more an attempt to apply out of period tactics wiht the army in being not being retrained or drilled in the new way, I seem to remember the newspaper article in game as saying the skirmishers wandered aimlessly towards there objective unsure of what was expected of them. which may be a reflection of that.

I expect as with most things in the game a change of Government form is possiable, but the way & how may remain a mystery. Get it right & you can tell the world how great & good you are, Get it wrong well I guess it could be time to look for the back exit as the mob armed with pitchforks & flaming torches are knocking on the front door.

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Re: Change of Governing Style

Post by Guest on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:40 am

Stuart Bailey wrote:...even worse than dealing with the Janissary Corp or getting the French Nobles to pay tax!
I never had any trouble getting French nobles to pay tax. They even voluntarily paid for infrastructure improvements, and sent some wonderful gifts on the anniversary of my coronation. I guess it must just have been my winning personality!

MarkTurner26 wrote:
Has anyone tried to change there nations style of government say from an autocratic state to one of a constitutional monarchy as an example.
Like previous comments, I dont think it is easy if everything is going well. In many countries the trend was towards central authority rather than away from it. However, if a country is in trouble with an unpopular government or struggling with war or famine, then the nobles may decide they are better off without the current king. Whether they would opt for a full blown revolution or rule by a cabal acting in the name of a weak king seems to depend on the history of the country concerned.
Some monarchs like Poland (as Stuart has pointed out) were notoriously hampered by archaic political structures so nobles were semi-independent. Others, like France, were the exact opposite: highly centralised and their independent power had been eroded over 50 years so that thoughts of rebellion had gone.
G7 is interesting in that a constitutional monarchy has effectively been established in England. This may be something unique in English history and a reaction against having a Catholic king (the nobility looked to Parliament to protect their rights from an overmighty king). They had tried being a republic and failing, but found they needed a king, so the only option left was to reduce his powers to become closer to that of a constitutional monarch.
I will also argue that after the Treaty of Westphalia, the role of the Holy Roman Emperor is constitutional with power within the states being sovereign. However, what we see here (and possibly elsewhere) is that if a strong king comes along who wants to take back powers he has lost, then it is probably easier to do so in 1700 than it would be later.
It is perhaps ironic that failure is more likely to lead to long term freedom and economic prosperity as the government is taken out of the hands of a monarch, whereas success (in 1700) is more likely to hold back such freedom and prosperity as power is taken away from the people. A great king like Louis can make even cumbersome machinery creak along through hard work, but when he was replaced by his successors, all of them struggled and eventually the revolution came along.

I cant really comment on how this could work in non-European states.


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