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The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Deacon on Wed May 02, 2018 9:23 pm


Well, if it's 300 men, I think that's two squadrons, but maybe that's just my western barbarian math. Very Happy

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Nexus06 on Thu May 03, 2018 11:54 am

Non to question Lord Fong greatness, which is indubitable, but 20 Sqds escort looks like a bit...compensative? Smile
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Thu May 03, 2018 3:18 pm

Yes, well, please don't anyone think that Lord Yea will be entering into some sort of one-upmanship contest with Lord Fong.

I'm envisioning my involvement in Game 9 to be quiet. I'll be the silent, junior partner in the (currently comprising two members) Team China*.



*there isn't actually a Team China, but it sounded cool.
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Jason on Thu May 03, 2018 9:11 pm

I quite like the idea of Team China Smile

20 squadrons may sound a lot....but when it's well under 1% of your forces.... Wink

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Stuart Bailey on Thu May 03, 2018 10:48 pm

Jason wrote:I quite like the idea of Team China Smile

20 squadrons may sound a lot....but when it's well under 1% of your forces.... Wink

While it may sound a lot you also need to compare it too:

- The size of the Imperial Banner Armies & the Imperial Guard under the direct control of the Emperor if Lord Fong decides he wants to stop being a Manchu Lapdog and found his own Dynasty.

- The possible size of Japanese invasion forces if they have a third go at Korea and Lord Fong gets ordered to stop them.

- The size of Wako forces......some of the major pirate fleets were over 1000 vessels strong and totally dominated coastal China.

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Stuart Bailey on Thu May 03, 2018 10:54 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:
Jason wrote:I quite like the idea of Team China Smile

20 squadrons may sound a lot....but when it's well under 1% of your forces.... Wink

While it may sound a lot you also need to compare it too:

- The size of the Imperial Banner Armies & the Imperial Guard under the direct control of the Emperor if Lord Fong decides he wants to stop being a Manchu Lapdog and found his own Dynasty.

- The possible size of Japanese invasion forces if they have a third go at Korea and Lord Fong gets ordered to stop them.

- The size of Wako forces......some of the major pirate fleets were over 1000 vessels strong and totally dominated coastal China.

But I still think this team China thing sounds a bit dodgy and like a plot against the Emperor. Think the Court needs to send a couple of upstart provincial leaders to invade Nipon in revenge for invasion of Korea & backing Wako raids......that should keep them busy and out of trouble.

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Jason on Fri May 04, 2018 9:38 am

Tsk Tsk Stuart,

We are not like you European barbarians, we are loyal servants to our rightful emperor...we could not more rebel against him than we could acknowledge any European ruler is equal to a provincial governor Wink
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Fri May 04, 2018 11:24 am

I'll state for the record at the next AGM, that we put on hold any planned uprisings against the Emperor until Stuart becomes the third member of Team China [then we wait for Stuart to declare himself 'in rebellion' first, before we, the other members of Team China, decide which way to act].

Manchuria has access to a lot of skirmish cavalry I believe, so should go some way to reenact the glory days of Rumelian light cavalry of Game Two.

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat May 05, 2018 11:37 am

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:I'll state for the record at the next AGM, that we put on hold any planned uprisings against the Emperor until Stuart becomes the third member of Team China [then we wait for Stuart to declare himself 'in rebellion' first, before we, the other members of Team China, decide which way to act].

Manchuria has access to a lot of skirmish cavalry I believe, so should go some way to reenact the glory days of Rumelian light cavalry of Game Two.

Since Manchuria is the homeland of the Manchu & they had a policy of keeping native Han Chinese out of Manchuria I think revolts in Manchuria are very unlikely. They are far more likely to happen in Mongolia or in SOUTH CHINA!

It should also be noted that Manchu Provincial Governors in south China are basically Army strongmen leading a foreign army of occupation.......probably a good idea to think of them as being a bit like Norman Nobles in England in the decades after 1066. While the Governor of Manchuria is probably a high ranking Manchu Prince. So if I played Manchuria I would expect a bit of respect from mere southern governors who are clearly not important or able enough to be considered for an important appointment in the North against the Dzungar.

Think if I played a "Team China" position it would be a lot more fun to be a be in the opposition either Wako/Ming loyalist or better still Dzungar. Have always said this game is about logistics.......wonder how an expert in tea who has clearly gone soft bullying cowed Han serfs will do against real men on the steppe?
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat May 05, 2018 8:51 pm

Ah, but that's only in the world of history. In the world of game 9 we've the freedom of the blank page and being able to write the future how we would choose. After all, there's nothing to say that my Manchu lord isn't more than a little influenced by the Han mandarin he must co-habit with. Not all of us enjoy the security of the Willow Palisade.

As to the Wokou. I believe Lord Fong has designs to keep the coast clear.
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Deacon on Sat May 05, 2018 9:20 pm


I'd like to see a chinese governor actually attempt to seize the jade throne, unify china under a new dynasty, and then kick some regional butt. The whole sucking up to the emperor thing with presents just seems boring to me. Twisted Evil
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Jason on Sat May 05, 2018 9:58 pm

Deacon wrote:
I'd like to see a chinese governor actually attempt to seize the jade throne, unify china under a new dynasty, and then kick some regional butt. The whole sucking up to the emperor thing with presents just seems boring to me. Twisted Evil

When I first played Kwantung in G2 (so many years agao) there were two rules
1) Governors could not rebel against the Emperor
2) Governors could not wage expansionist wars against other Governors

I am pretty sure those rules were also in place when I was Manchuria in G8 when it first started. I don't recall them being specifically stated in G9 but I plays as if they are.

Sorry Smile

But one day in G9, I will burn Vienna to the ground....

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Goldstar on Sat May 05, 2018 10:46 pm

As a good Christian, Gods annonted Holy Roman Emperor Leopold Hapsburg is always ready to forgive the intemperate language of heathen lords from far off lands. It must be hard for a learned scholar like Fong to kowtow and oppress his Han brothers in the name of the descendant of Northern Horse rustler barbarians from North of the Great Wall. Fong commands over 300,000 men yet prostates himself before a Manchurian despot.
Strange how the Chinese accept these foriegn invaders as their overlords, it is as if the Crimean Khan had taken Vienna and pronounced himself Holy Roman Emperor.
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Deacon on Sun May 06, 2018 9:06 am


A pox on 'rules'. I doubt seriously that Richard would prevent a player in China these days from trying it. Wouldn't be easy, but that's part of the point.
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun May 06, 2018 4:28 pm

I'm not looking to become Emperor. I just fancied something that would allow me to use all the build options in the game, while I continue with Rozwi in Game 10. However, I can't be bothered kowtowing to the Emperor (famous last words, now the GM has read this!) so am quite content to stay in the luxury of my Shanghai palace.

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun May 06, 2018 5:07 pm

Think the problem for leading a revolt against the Emperor from a Governors position is that to get the position in the first place you have to be Manchu. Which means that the Han masses will not follow you because you are Manchu.

While after leading the Manchu to the conquest of China the honour of the early Qing Dynasty amongst the Manchu (including all of your military officers) is so great that if you raise the flag of revolt its going to be you and your horse V 600,000 men.

Think the only way to do it is assassinate the Emperor and Crown Prince in person (or use a hired in foreign Ninga) but blame it on a rival. Then have a civil war with rival governors backing different Princely heirs to the throne.

Stuart

PS Someone is clearly getting lazy in Shanghai......think he needs to be sent on campaign in outer Mongolia, Tibet or perhaps ordered to invade Japan.

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Jason on Sun May 06, 2018 5:21 pm

So...let's get this straight...

Some of you think that instead of me and Roy working together, develop the empire and build up it's forces to defend it and its friends and neighbours against threats...

...we should start a prolonged civil war to become Emperor, leaving China weak and divided for some time...

...hmmm...now why is it that I found myself thinking that might not be such a good idea... scratch
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Deacon on Sun May 06, 2018 5:45 pm


In the history of Glory, has china ever been really threatened? Except for a Spanish dalliance in Formosa in Game 3, I'm not aware of any.
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Jason on Sun May 06, 2018 7:09 pm

Not really, some piracy issues in G8 but not much more.

Of course, I'd like to keep it that way...which is why i'm always suspicious of those suggesting coups or what ever...is it just a distraction before their invasion turns up? Twisted Evil

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun May 06, 2018 7:17 pm

Deacon wrote:
In the history of Glory, has china ever been really threatened? Except for a Spanish dalliance in Formosa in Game 3, I'm not aware of any.

In one game the number I do not recall the Japanese launched a really big invasion just before the game ended which rather seemed to sink in mud and rain just before the game ended.

Think the only position which is played on a regular basis which could invade China (probably Korea to start with) is the Shogan. But like with Manchu Govenors this position does not seem to be of interest to hard core wargamers out to win glory as the biggest and badest Samari on the battle field rather than by making the perfect cup of tea.

Pity really since we all want to see Lords Fong and Roy take part in a contest to see who can toady more to the Emperor in order to get command of the relief force.

Potentially, these could be some of the largest and most interesting battles ever seem in Glori.

PS Is anyone playing the Shogan in G9 or is the position free?

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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun May 06, 2018 7:28 pm

Jason wrote:So...let's get this straight...

Some of you think that instead of me and Roy working together, develop the empire and build up it's forces to defend it and its friends and neighbours against threats...

...we should start a prolonged civil war to become Emperor, leaving China weak and divided for some time...

...hmmm...now why is it that I found myself thinking that might not be such a good idea... scratch

Probably because if you end of on the side which losses the Manchu Emperor's have some really nasty ways of dealing with people who upset them (look at what almost happened to Flashman in Flashman and Dragon) and were not really big on the concept of Royal Pardon's.

And if you do suffer defeat and make it into exile were to you end up......Rome, Paris, Constantinople??? No Siberia drinking fermented mare's milk at minus 50 below.
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Deacon on Sun May 06, 2018 7:49 pm

Jason wrote:Not really, some piracy issues in G8 but not much more.

Of course, I'd like to keep it that way...which is why i'm always suspicious of those suggesting coups or what ever...is it just a distraction before their invasion turns up? :twisted:

I guess, except that I can't think of much of anybody rational that would pick China to invade before so many other targets. If you just want a ton of bodies, invade India. It's closer. It's always possible that somebody will be crazy, but the logistics of putting an army on chinese soil that could really threaten it is staggeringly complex. I pay a lot for my turns in game 8 and I wouldn't even want to contemplate the amount of time and effort and money (real world and in-game) that I'd have to commit to that effort. So not worth it.

I tried to take Japan in one game since I was a Japan studies major in College and speak the language (badly these days), but it was taken so I ended up with another position. Not sure what I would have done with it all, but Korea would have definitely been on my list!
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Jason on Sun May 06, 2018 8:38 pm

Goldstar wrote:As a good Christian, Gods annonted Holy Roman Emperor Leopold Hapsburg is always ready to forgive the intemperate language of heathen lords from far off lands. It must be hard for a learned scholar like Fong to kowtow and oppress his Han brothers in the name of the descendant of Northern Horse rustler barbarians from North of the Great Wall. Fong commands over 300,000 men yet prostates himself before a Manchurian despot.
Strange how the Chinese accept these foriegn invaders as their overlords, it is as if the Crimean Khan had taken Vienna and pronounced himself Holy Roman Emperor.

It was partly down to the Chinese attitude to regime change. Emperors held their position through the Mandate of Heaven-if they lost power, it was because they were bad rulers who lost the Mandate through their actions (or inactions). It helped that when a new dynasty took the imperial throne that, once the initial bloodletting was over and the early revolts put down, they were usually good rulers who worked to improve China, expand it and generally make things better. It's only when a dynasty gets complacent that things go wrong.

In Glory terms, we're at the 'right' period. The new dynasty has established itself, it has dealt with the early revolts, and the empire is peaceful and accepting of this new dynasty who are expanding the empire and seen to be ruling fairly. The Wako pirate threat is greatly diminished by 1700 for example and the Barbarians aren't a threat.

Of course by the time of "Scramble", it's obvious that the Mandate is in danger
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Jason on Sun May 06, 2018 8:49 pm

Deacon wrote:
Jason wrote:Not really, some piracy issues in G8 but not much more.

Of course, I'd like to keep it that way...which is why i'm always suspicious of those suggesting coups or what ever...is it just a distraction before their invasion turns up? Twisted Evil

I guess, except that I can't think of much of anybody rational that would pick China to invade before so many other targets. If you just want a ton of bodies, invade India. It's closer. It's always possible that somebody will be crazy, but the logistics of putting an army on chinese soil that could really threaten it is staggeringly complex. I pay a lot for my turns in game 8 and I wouldn't even want to contemplate the amount of time and effort and money (real world and in-game) that I'd have to commit to that effort. So not worth it.

I tried to take Japan in one game since I was a Japan studies major in College and speak the language (badly these days), but it was taken so I ended up with another position. Not sure what I would have done with it all, but Korea would have definitely been on my list!

Interesting I had a letter from Japan in G9 this month...hadn't realised they were active.

Korea would be the obvious target I guess for Japan (unless you tried something radical and expanded eastwards across the Pacific?). Of course in G8 and G9, with Chinese players who have spent a lot of time and effort on building up their navies, the Japanese might find themselves imitating the Prussian and Russian fleets Wink
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Re: The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Post by Deacon on Sun May 06, 2018 9:21 pm


Yeah, I think the issue that I've noticed in the game is that territory often means little, it's the population that you need. Fair number of places in the world you can take, but without population they don't really mean much. So Japan could expand east, but they'd get no bodies to fuel the colonial efforts. Korea is a better choice, even though it would put you in conflict with China.

That pesky issue of a navy that stinks that you mention would also be a key driver...

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