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The perfect army

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Nexus06
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The perfect army

Post by Nexus06 on Wed May 06, 2015 9:16 pm

I was wondering, in your opinion, which is the " perfect" combination of elements for your in game army?

We all know that a good army deployment depends from various elements, but being you a major country which would be your starting combination of elements?. Would you use some horse regiments of heavy cavalry or do you think they are useless? What about the dragoons? Are they garrison or a cheap but useful chivalry section? How may cannons? Of which kind (no siege, too easy).

Which is the perfect sizing of the army?

Of course using the games rules.

Eager to know
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The Real Louis
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Re: The perfect army

Post by The Real Louis on Thu May 07, 2015 6:12 pm

To be honest, I have very little experience of pitched battles - but one thing is clear to me, the "perfect" army depends on who you are fighting (and where). What might work between two conventional European armies, will not work for a European-type army pitched against, say (he typed with feeling) a mass of tribal light horse...
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Jason
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Re: The perfect army

Post by Jason on Thu May 07, 2015 8:47 pm

For me it depends on the nation I'm playing.  If it's one I can find information on the actual army it had in real life then for me, recreating that is the perfect army Smile

For smaller nations withe limited recruit bases, I tend to focus on a good core of regular infantry and heavy cavalry regiments with a reasonable number of cannon but not too many.  In such cases I tend not to have many dragoons and those I have I tend to use for patrolling.

With larger nations who have good recruit bases, I tend to have specialised armies-a field army (of several) of infantry (including light and dedicated grenadier battalions) and heavy cavalry; a 'guard corps' of elite only units; a separate "artillery corps" (field, siege, mortars, engineers and a small escort of infantry and dragoons); and a 'flying column' of dragoons.
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MarkTurner26
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Re: The perfect army

Post by MarkTurner26 on Fri May 08, 2015 8:10 pm

From my past experience it depends on your nation and the type of game you want to play, Persia for example should use large amounts of light cavalry due to the nature of its terrain.

I have attempted a Grand D'Armee style army with larger rapid moving cavalry units.

I tend to have a good mix of light, regular and elite infantry with the same theory provided to the cavalry corp.

Ultimately you cant say what is the best options, every nation has its pro's and con's. Fast moving cavalry is a must in the steppes and the far east where as I think well ordered ranks of infantry are vital in central europe.

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Re: The perfect army

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun May 10, 2015 10:29 am

Jason wrote:For me it depends on the nation I'm playing.  If it's one I can find information on the actual army it had in real life then for me, recreating that is the perfect army Smile

For smaller nations withe limited recruit bases, I tend to focus on a good core of regular infantry and heavy cavalry regiments with a reasonable number of cannon but not too many.  In such cases I tend not to have many dragoons and those I have I tend to use for patrolling.

With larger nations who have good recruit bases, I tend to have specialised armies-a field army (of several) of infantry (including light and dedicated grenadier battalions) and heavy cavalry; a 'guard corps' of elite only units; a separate "artillery corps" (field, siege, mortars, engineers and a small escort of infantry and dragoons); and a 'flying column' of dragoons.


My view is that if you have a army with a strong historic identity such as the Swedes or WSS English its best stick as close as possible to the historic model/tactics rather than trying new things. Swedes for instance are deadly if organized into flying columns of Inf/Cav .....with a few light guns and ordered to attack at speed, but if you try to use "Swedish" tactics/organization with other Nations.......best of luck! I am staying loyal to Artillery.

Also if your position includes non standard/European troops like light Cavalry, Tribal foot, light infantry you should use them to your advantage. Since every troop type has its advantages & disadvantages the more troop types you have the better.

Ref troop proportions this is going to depend on area's of operation historically armies used 30% to 50% cavalry with higher numbers of cavalry used by eastern powers and generally its best to stick to this. Since Infantry form the majority of garrisons I tend to go 50/50 in field armies but the overall percentage of cavalry gets reduced by the number of mostly infantry garrisons deployed.

Ref Cavalry I go 50/50 Heavy Cavalry/Lt Cav or Dragoons. Since at least half of my Dragoons/Lights will be detached on patrol, or as seperate small forces to escort supplies, raiding/scouting coloums this will mean roughly 3 heavy or lancers for each Light or Dragoon in the main army.

Unlike Mark & others I dont like Artillery forces marching serperate to the main army. Ok so the guns slow up the Army but I dont want to start a siege/battle without them! And if you lose the guns the whole campaign can be ruined. Thus if you are typical European Power planing to beseige a hostile fortress I think you should look to have:

1) ST inc Cavalry/Infantry/Artillery/Engineers to conduct siege.

2) Force of Lights/Dragoons to scout & raid ahead.

3) Supply column of small force of dragoons/Inf with 15,000 tons of grain ready to re-supply.

Some players may favour splitting the main army into a force to conduct the siege inc all the siege guns and a covering force inc most of the cavalry. Such "Armies of Oberservation" used by Marborough & Marshal Saxe etc intend to stop any relief attempts by fighting a open field battle or blocking the relief at a distance away from the siege works.

However many commanders still like a single force which means using the old siege method of digging siege works which face both outwards & inwards and fighting off any relief from the field works.

In G2 with the the Ottomans I used the old method but with hordes of light cavalry thrown out.........so any relief Army needed to march across "scorched earth" and deal with hordes of skirmishers/arnauts behind every tree before getting to the siege lines.

In G7 my Spanish are very modern.

In G9 Augustus is still trying to convince the Diet that buying some Siege Guns is actually a good idea. Think Saxon-Polish forces are basically a relief force or perhaps a Army of Obervation for allies.

However its fair to say that while you may have idea's about your perfect Army when you come to fight almost certainly most troops will be in the wrong place.
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MarkTurner26
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Re: The perfect army

Post by MarkTurner26 on Tue May 12, 2015 8:37 am

I like to send out my light cavalry to clear the way and scout the area of advance prior to and whilst my main force is marching along. Alternatively I just tell my men to collect ears its much more fun when a barbaric Hungarian Hussar carrying a bucketful of ears is tearing towards you than a man bearing a large french mustache.

Nexus06
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Re: The perfect army

Post by Nexus06 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:29 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:
Jason wrote:For me it depends on the nation I'm playing.  If it's one I can find information on the actual army it had in real life then for me, recreating that is the perfect army Smile

For smaller nations withe limited recruit bases, I tend to focus on a good core of regular infantry and heavy cavalry regiments with a reasonable number of cannon but not too many.  In such cases I tend not to have many dragoons and those I have I tend to use for patrolling.

With larger nations who have good recruit bases, I tend to have specialised armies-a field army (of several) of infantry (including light and dedicated grenadier battalions) and heavy cavalry; a 'guard corps' of elite only units; a separate "artillery corps" (field, siege, mortars, engineers and a small escort of infantry and dragoons); and a 'flying column' of dragoons.


My view is that if you have a army with a strong historic identity such as the Swedes or WSS English its best stick as close as possible to the historic model/tactics rather than trying new things.  Swedes for instance are deadly if organized into flying columns of Inf/Cav .....with a few light guns and ordered to attack at speed, but if you try to use "Swedish" tactics/organization with other Nations.......best of luck!  I am staying loyal to Artillery.  

Also if your position includes non standard/European troops like light Cavalry, Tribal foot, light infantry you should use them to your advantage.  Since every troop type has its advantages & disadvantages the more troop types you have the better.

Ref troop proportions this is going to depend on area's of operation historically armies used 30% to 50% cavalry with higher numbers of cavalry used by eastern powers and generally its best to stick to this.  Since Infantry form the majority of garrisons I tend to go 50/50 in field armies but the overall percentage of cavalry gets reduced by the number of mostly infantry garrisons deployed.

Ref Cavalry I go 50/50 Heavy Cavalry/Lt Cav or Dragoons.  Since at least half of my Dragoons/Lights will be detached on patrol, or as seperate small forces to escort supplies, raiding/scouting coloums this will mean roughly 3 heavy or lancers for each Light or Dragoon in the main army.

Unlike Mark & others I dont like Artillery forces marching serperate to the main army.  Ok so the guns slow up the Army but I dont want to start a siege/battle without them!  And if you lose the guns the whole campaign can be ruined.  Thus if you are typical European Power planing to beseige a hostile fortress I think you should look to have:

1) ST inc Cavalry/Infantry/Artillery/Engineers to conduct siege.

2) Force of Lights/Dragoons to scout & raid ahead.

3) Supply column of small force of dragoons/Inf with 15,000 tons of grain ready to re-supply.

Some players may favour splitting the main army into a force to conduct the siege inc all the siege guns and a covering force inc most of the cavalry.  Such "Armies of Oberservation" used by Marborough & Marshal Saxe etc intend to stop any relief attempts by fighting a open field battle or blocking the relief at a distance away from the siege works.

However many commanders still like a single force which means using the old siege method of digging siege works which face both outwards & inwards and fighting off any relief from the field works.

In G2 with the the Ottomans I used the old method but with hordes of light cavalry thrown out.........so any relief Army needed to march across "scorched earth" and deal with hordes of skirmishers/arnauts behind every tree before getting to the siege lines.

In G7 my Spanish are very modern.

In G9 Augustus is still trying to convince the Diet that buying some Siege Guns is actually a good idea.  Think Saxon-Polish forces are basically a relief force or perhaps a Army of Obervation for allies.

However its fair to say that while you may have idea's about your perfect Army when you come to fight almost certainly most troops will be in the wrong place.
At the start of our period    






Thank you Stuard, you gifted me with a lot of usefull information. I'll work on your suggestions while reforming the army.

I was thinking of a more infantry army as a top army. And specialized detachments for different duties. Has anyone any web references concerning russian or other continental armies in early 1700? I was trying to find something concerning the russian army in the northern war but found still nothing...
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Ardagor
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Re: The perfect army

Post by Ardagor on Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Lars-Eric Høglund have a a few books about Sweden an her enemies in Swedish and English. I have the Swedish version.

The English is called Great Northern War 1700-1721 I & II (I is about Sweden, II about the enemies)

The info is generally about induvidual regiments (uniforms, raised, Commanders and colours/standards) and more general information on the changes made by Peter during the war.

Nexus06
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Re: The perfect army

Post by Nexus06 on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:41 pm

Ardagor wrote:Lars-Eric Høglund have a a few books about Sweden an her enemies in Swedish and English. I have the Swedish version.

The English is called Great Northern War 1700-1721 I & II (I is about Sweden, II about the enemies)

The info is generally about induvidual regiments (uniforms, raised, Commanders and colours/standards) and more general information on the changes made by Peter during the war.

I'll try to get it thanks
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Ardagor
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Re: The perfect army

Post by Ardagor on Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:05 pm

I know that Berliner Zinnfiguren have it at 46 Euro. Can be difficult to find elsewhere as the publisher is out of business.

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Re: The perfect army

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:45 pm

Ardagor wrote:Lars-Eric Høglund have a a few books about Sweden an her enemies in Swedish and English. I have the Swedish version.

The English is called Great Northern War 1700-1721 I & II (I is about Sweden, II about the enemies)

The info is generally about induvidual regiments (uniforms, raised, Commanders and colours/standards) and more general information on the changes made by Peter during the war.


If you are looking at a particular Army I find the Osprey series is often a good starting point.

For the Russians they did MAA 264 Peter the Greats Army, X2 on the Russian Army of the Seven Years War (which actually covered the Russian Army from the Death of Peter in 1725) & one on Poltava.

The Osprey publishing web site can give details of these books & if they are out of print Amazon may still have a copy.

You may find the the basic Osprey guide enough for your needs. Mine on the Prussian Cavalry for instance listed all the units with names of regimental commanders.....great if you are looking for names of Germanic NPC's for your Prussian, Austrian, Bavarian, Swedish & even Agema position.

However, the guides also include a large bibliography handy for the fanatic's (you know who you are) who want to know the historic uniform of their guards down to the last detail and if their kettle drums should be gold or silver.

J Flower
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Re: The perfect army

Post by J Flower on Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:03 pm

Another good book is by Liliane & Fred Funken "Historische Uniformen" by Orbis, I guess there is an English version out there somewhere

I also many years ago got some guides from Raider Games of Leeds

Raider Books 120A Potternewton Lane Leeds LS7 3DR.

Small & Cheap but full lists of Regimental colonels
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Ardagor
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Re: The perfect army

Post by Ardagor on Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:14 pm

I have the Schiffer books (cavalry and Infantry regiments) and the Verlag Militaria book on Fredrick the Greats army, quite exhaustive and heavy.

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