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Game 10

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J Flower
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Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Fri May 05, 2017 6:55 pm

Nice picture of King Billy at the top of the paper.

looks like a smash & grab job in Italy, or was it first the carrot(s) & then the stick.

J Flower
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Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Fri May 05, 2017 7:41 pm

This may help people who are trying to send diplomatic representatives to Poland & end up getting their diplomat sent home in a huff.

Consulate
A consulate, headed by a consul, is not an embassy but a mission established in a foreign town or
city, and funded as a mission by the state sending it out. It does not grant embassy status, but the
consul attends to the interests of your subjects or citizens in the place in which it operates.

which means you have to pay the cost of you consulate rather than the Poles paying for your embassy.

As I understand it the Polish player feels that he as the Steward of Poland he cannot accept diplomats & that the court Augustus of Saxony-Poland is where diplomats should be presenting their credentials. As King Augustus is de-facto ruler of Poland.

So if you want diplomatic ties send a Consul ( after asking permission) rather than a diplomat.
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Rozwi_Game10
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Re: Game 10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat May 06, 2017 10:42 am

J Flower wrote:This may help people who are trying to send diplomatic representatives to Poland & end up getting their diplomat sent home in a huff.

Nice post Exclamation  Definitely very interesting and useful to know.

I'm, as Rozwi, doing something similar - as Portugal's / UDP's / Scotland's players know.

Rozwi doesn't send out ambassadors to foreign lands outside of the area of South Africa, so meaning I haven't sent embassies to Europe to forge ties with those three nations. Instead, Rozwi has an 'ambassador-at-large' who flits about between Khami-Mozambique-Zanzibar and works with the Portuguese and the Omani governors. With the Dutch at Capetown I've a trade mission, with a named character leading it who also acts as Rozwi's 'ambassador' to the governor there. Scotland is in the process of sending a chap to Rozwi to just open diplomatic communications between players in the game - as Rozwi, me, doesn't have any dealings with nations / players in the game that are not actually present in some form or another in southern Africa.

Through those three links to Portugal / UDP / Scotland I can justify communications in private or letter with the players, and not have to worry about having embassies open and the risk of a faux pas or two due to cultural differences. I also don't have to worry about sending private letters through third-party merchant shipping acting as paid couriers, since Rozwi has no diplomatic service or navy of its own to use.

Then there's the language barrier. I've trained up men to act as interpreters to the Portuguese. The Omanis will have people of there own who can communicate in a mix of Bantu-Swahili. My chap at Capetown knows enough Bantu / Khoikhoi / Khoisan to communicate with people there. No idea how the Scottish chap is going to communicate with us though! lol! (might need to send off to those English islands, nearby, for a Bantu-English speaker to teach some interpreters)

Thelittleemperor
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Re: Game 10

Post by Thelittleemperor on Sat May 06, 2017 11:07 am

A didnae ken the English kent the guid Scots mithir tongue. Who 'll translate between the English and the Scottish ?

Stuart Bailey
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Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat May 06, 2017 11:34 am

Ref the difference between Embassies & Consulates.

Technically a Ambassador can only been sent to Court of a Monarch while a Consul represents you and helps our subject/citizens elsewhere:

This means that a Ambassador to the King of Poland should be sent to attend to Augustus the Strong of Saxony in Dresden (or wherever he is visiting).  If you want a representative in Warsaw, Danzig, Courland, Lithuania or other parts of the Commonwealth its a Consulate.

The same titles should apply in the Ottoman Empire technically the Ambassador to the Porte is in Constantinople.  Your chap in Egypt, Rumelia, Syria etc is a Consul.

The other difference's  between a Ambassador and a Consul its that Ambassador's are generally Nobles from your Country in place to do high level diplomacy.  If you want them to do particular "trade" & other stuff etc you should consider a Commercial Attache and a Military Attache to your Embassy.

Consul's esp in Countries were you already have a Ambassador tend to have a lot more to do with trade and looking after your subjects legal problems etc and can be locals with links to your Country.  Thus the Portugal should probably honour one of its top Nobles by making them Ambassador to the Court of St James while its Consul in Bristol could be a local Alderman and Wine Merchant who also ownes Vineyards and a Port Warehouse in Porto.

While in the UDP you probably want a Ambassador at the Hague and use a Consul in Amsterdam to manage your relations with the HEIC, The Bank of Amsterdam, Dredger Contracts with Dutch Shipbuilders etc

If you want to set up something like this in game think best option is to have a trade mission......but call it a Consulate and give it a named head/Consul.

Stuart Bailey
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Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat May 06, 2017 11:38 am

Thelittleemperor wrote:A didnae ken the English kent  the guid Scots mithir tongue. Who 'll translate  between the English and the Scottish ?

What about a shipwrecked ex-Pirate and master Gunner from Newcastle who just happened to wash on the shores of Africa after a Pirate-Reound to the Indian Ocean went wrong?
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Rozwi_Game10
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Re: Game 10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat May 06, 2017 1:44 pm

Thelittleemperor wrote:A didnae ken the English kent  the guid Scots mithir tongue. Who 'll translate  between the English and the Scottish ?

Razz I didn't want to be the one to suggest this, myself (I did think it, though) Wink
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Jason
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Re: Game 10

Post by Jason on Sat May 06, 2017 3:25 pm

Now, this has just given me an idea...I could sent a Doric-speaking Covenanter to France as ambassador...
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Rozwi_Game10
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Re: Game 10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun May 07, 2017 9:47 am

Quite common, I've read, for Victorians abroad in India or Africa to be met with a native soul who spoke English but with a Scottish accent. Obviously due to Scottish missionaries passing on their own pronunciations and colloquialisms in their teaching and translations.
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Jason
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Re: Game 10

Post by Jason on Sun May 07, 2017 1:16 pm

Not to mention Scottish engineers and merchants, seems we were either trying to save peoples souls, build them mechanical devices...or flog them haggis and whisky Wink

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Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun May 07, 2017 2:00 pm

August 1701 Mercurius Politicus has shown up and for non players in G10 here are the highlights:

1) WAR !!!!! no not a war over the Spanish Succession (that is still a shouting match) but in India the Great Mughul has declared war on the Maharata Confederation and his forces are on the move again.  According to the Moghul this war is new and different but since he has been fighting those pesky Hindu bandits for the last thirty years not sure why this one is different to all the other Moghul operations in the South.

2) FAMINE !!!!! Also in Asia the Shogan seems to have turned a rice Shortage into a major Rice Surplus.  Not sure how he has pulled off this coup but it seems to involve the Govt seizure of the deposits of the Osaka Rice Brokers.  Wonder if this is a version of a Govt using its fishing industry to provide food rather than income?  Only in this case its the Banking Industry being turned into food?  Very interesting but unless the Changamire of Rozwi sets up a Cattle Bank in future its probably not a move which non Japanese players can follow to avoid famine.  In other famine news

- the Dutch have abolished Taxes for a couple of years (indication that they are not keen on fighting a expensive war over Spain?).
-  Persia has declared that reports of grain shortage in Persia are false and can merchants please send the Shahdom flintlock muskets instead of grain.  Is the Shia Shah plotting to liberate his Sunni Brothers from the Yoke of the Sunni Ottomans or is he concerned by his other historic Sunni foe the War Like and expansive Empire of the Moghul?  Do the Persian Heretic's think they are next for Jihad after the Pagans?
- The Rozwi have been slaughtering Cattle for food........probably means that in future they will have to raid other tribes to replace their herds.

3) EXPLORATION & DIPLOMACY IN THE HEART OF DARKNESS............no not Versailles or Scotland but the Rozwi lands.  This formerly unknown Tribe seems to be making friends not only with other natives but with the UDP & Portugal as well.  Not sure if this was before or after the Christains found out that the Rozwi practice Spirit Magic & Human Sacrifice.  Oh dear what will the Pope think about Portugal dealing with Black Magic???????  Probably not a lot since he has enough problems in Iberia to keep him busy for some time.  Just as well the Steward of Poland is doing his bit to uphold the true Catholic Faith.  Taking a break from his loyal service to a ex Protestant who converted to the Catholic faith he walked 200 miles to worship a Icon showing the Mother of God as black which is seems is now Queen of Poland.  Has anyone told Augustus the Strong that he is now married to a Icon?

4) INSULTS.........plenty of these flying about mostly about Rodrigo de Abello and his backers in Spain who have been called a questionable birth, an imposter, the "Black Eminence", a vile junta & anabaptists in various places from Flanders down to Naples and my many different people,  but oddly without reply from Madrid.  The Pope no doubt concerned with the reputation of a important Catholic Catholic Monarchy, a Cardinal & the Papal fief of Naples being dragged through the mud plus having a splitting head ache due to the Public and Private ear bashing he is getting from the French Envoy in Rome & the Catholic faithfull in general has asked for a senior prince - temporal or spiritual to explain the case for their native but illegitimate monarch.  Which can be read as I have the King of France's grand son in Italy with the full backing of the dodgy duo (Aka the Prince of Savoy & the Doge of Genoa) putting forward his claim to be King of Naples with tribute & even the White Horse and demanding that I Crown him King of the Papal fief of Naples.  I really do not want a possible future King of France with "interesting" taste in friends and women on my southern border.  Please, please dont ignore me and come up with a reason for why I should turn down his claim.  Ideally something which stands up in cannon law or Louis XIV printing presses and propaganda machine are going to go into over drive

On a much lower level the English Prime Minister declined the challenge to daul the Chevalier Rene Trouin and added to earlier insults by informing the noble Chevalier that he should shut his mouth and mind his manners least his horrible drunken antics cause more than a challenge to be issued.  Trouin will probably take thuis a meaning "I am much too important and too much of a Coward to fight a honourable daul with a mere Gentleman but if you do not shut up I will have your throat cut by one of by scores of agents in France."

Lord Melville also insulted the Duc of Anjou's (King of Naples, King of Spain?, Duke of Milan?, Duke of Flanders) Privateers who are busy recruiting (by press gang) his Majesties Loyal Subjects to perhaps fight the usurper.  By calling them Pirates........but this may just be a dodgy translation from the Scots.  Since its 100% certain that Forbin's Lawyers have not made an errors with the paper work and the privateers letters of Marque will stand up in any Court in France.

DIPLOMACY & THE REAL HEART OF DARKNESS (VERSAILLES) - Its odd that the English Prime Minister and Lord Melville seem to be in a slanging match with Rene Trouin when he is part of a French court faction (The old Colonial and Marine Faction of Colbert) which is most keen on a diplomatic settlement with the Hapsburg's and William III and his ministers.  The latest draft treaty from his faction (The Third Partition Treaty) would seem to give Spain and most of its colonies to the Hapsburgs and give them the choice of Milan or Flanders while seeking to deal with King Williams concerns about the Flanders Barrier Forts and the Chevalier St George.

- Other factions at the French Court are the Jacobites (formerly active but no seemingly in decline), A German faction linked to the Duc of Lorraine (married to the Duc of Orleans daughter) and the Landgraf Charles of Hesse-Kessel (finished visit to Versailles this month) and the currently very influential Italian Faction.

- The Italians lead by the Duc of Savoy & the Doge of Genoa and linked to hard line Catholic Opinion in France.  For them Rodger the Dodger is a imposter, the Duc of Anjou undisputedly "His Most Catholic Majesty" and men like the Forbin, Trouin, Bart who urge diplomacy & want to cut a deal with the Dutch King to keep the balance of power are weak, feeble and too soft cuddly.  They would seem to have stolen a march on their court rivals by getting the Duc of Anjou to Italy this month and rather than just having him made King of Naples by the Pope in the Great City of Milan, former Capital of the Roman Empire and for many Italians the true heart of Europe they aclaimed him as King of Spain and the true heir of Carlos II.

- Sitting in his great Palace Louis XIV is the sun King round which these various factions move like planets round the sun.  Tall, Dark, Handsome the fairly silent Monarch seems to be allowing his Count and allies to do most of the talking while he plays his cards close to his chest and figure out which advise he should take (if any).  He is also probably trying to work out why did he agree to current set up and how did Forbin become the soft and cuddly voice of moderation at the French Court.

OTHER NEWS - English Govt forces take back Dublin from one trouble maker who had run a Jacobite Flag.  Why the Capital of Ireland did not have a Garrison in place looks a bit suspect.  One wonders if was all a plot to make King William look like a Protestant Champion or if some of his ministers are trying hard to make the Jacobite Threat look greater than it is so as to give grounds for involvement in Spain/Flanders if the Bourbon Party comes out on top.
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Jason
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Re: Game 10

Post by Jason on Sun May 07, 2017 6:48 pm

I can assure you Lord Melville has consulted with much Scotch...I mean many Scotch Lawyers...and they have assured him that foreign Privateers caught operating in Scottish waters will find their pouncy letters responded to with a Glasgow kiss Wink
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Rozwi_Game10
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Re: Game 10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun May 07, 2017 8:41 pm

Technically there's been no cattle slaughtered, yet.

The bribe cattle I gave to Rozwi's "Chief Spirit Medium" (Its not Black Magic!), to keep the nation onside in the upcoming belt-tightening period, was meant as a gift for him to keep. It was the Spirit Chap himself who then said he'd sell them back to me for 4,000 Ashrafis, then I could slaughter them for food supplies.

Fair enough, the cattle were imported from Zanzibar and not pure blood stock from the Rozwi herds, and the Spirit Chap is actually asking for more money than the herd was actually bought for in the first place, but if he's happy and the people are happy with having their belly's filled who am I to argue.

And whats the matter with a bit of willing sacrifice for the good of the tribe? Its just a coincidence that it only happened after the nice Christian nations promised to send us their diplomats. Honest. Its not like we're cannibals like some of the people belonging our tribal neighbours are.

J Flower
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Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Sun May 07, 2017 9:07 pm

Maybe I should send my ambassador along with a gift for the chief of the tribe, would a large( man sized ) cooking pot be acceptable
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Jason
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Re: Game 10

Post by Jason on Sun May 07, 2017 10:15 pm

J Flower wrote:Maybe I should send my ambassador along with a gift for the chief of the tribe, would a large( man sized ) cooking pot be acceptable

Be careful, based on this they might consider it's for your ambassador Wink
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfciQfmUMAAKSMw.jpg


J Flower
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Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Mon May 08, 2017 8:23 am

Maybe it will become a tradition, if your ambassador gets put in the pot then you know they are really upset & maybe considering war! Or there has been a major famine. Will make a point of only sending a skinny ambassador.
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Rozwi_Game10
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Re: Game 10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Mon May 08, 2017 11:42 am

I've been trying to remember for a while now what it is that I read about south eastern Bantu practices on declaring war. Something like sending a specific weapon to the intended enemy chief to declare your intent to attack him - He then had to do something as per the accepted practices of receiving said 'message', like driving it blade first into the ground or something. I can't remember what it all was, nor where I read or saw it.

Oh, by the way, any ambassador gifting Changamire Dombo II with black ink, getting him to use it to dye his hair youthful black then telling him its the elixir of life can expect a few sharpened wooden pegs strategically inserted up their rectums (the preferred method of execution, I believe). Though I dare say I won't be able to stop the oohing and ahhing of the crowds (and Dombo) if they're gifted with shiny metal wire to wear as ornaments, or other useless tatt that the natives will consider the height of fashion (its a good job there's no telegraph wires hanging around for us to steal, strip down, and make arm bands with! Wink )
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revvaughan
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Re: Game 10

Post by revvaughan on Mon May 08, 2017 11:36 pm

The Prime Minister was just sending an invite to a party at sea that was all! Much better than a duel from those that market it stolen blue prints. This will let the good man see the ships close up so that he can appreciate them.

Who knows maybe the two can become friends. Suspect

Stuart Bailey
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Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Mon May 08, 2017 11:57 pm

I was looking round historic collections in Mombassa and the east coast of Africa seems to have had quite good taste ref "Shinny stuff".

Favourites seem to include Arab style daggers with fancy hilts in Ivory and the like and fabrics from India which seemed normal enough for the Indian Ocean.  What I found more unusual was the huge numbers of Venetian Glass Beads in the collection and the amount of stuff from China.

Do not think this is evidence for Italians and Chinese merchants swarming all over east Africa and emptying the royal coffers of Dombo II but clearly if Mrs Dombo wants a new cooking pot, a nice Ming Dynasty dish plus a new dress in Indian Silk then the local coastal traders know a man who knows a man who can supply........"shall we say 8 strong slaves and a ton of Ivory for the Venetian Glass?  And thats cutting my own throat."

Stuart Bailey
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Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Tue May 09, 2017 12:15 am

revvaughan wrote:The Prime Minister was just sending an invite to a party at sea that was all!  Much better than a duel from those that market it stolen blue prints.  This will let the good man see the ships close up so that he can appreciate them.  

Who knows maybe the two can become friends. Suspect

The Prime Minister wants Rene Trouin, Sieur du Gue to have a party on East India Merchant Ships?

Not 100% sure that the directors of the Hon East India Company and their Insurance Underwriters will be happy about a bunch of drunken frogs having a party anywhere near the best China. affraid

Mind you if the PM is in disgrace with the HEIC its probably nothing compared to the King of England who has just called the Stuart Family a bunch of debauched, liars lacking in honour. Reminder me again what the name of the Queen before she and William married? And the name of the current heir? Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

J Flower
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Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Tue May 09, 2017 10:11 am

That is Obviously just the Catholic male side of the Jacobite Stuart Clan, it must be obvious to anyone that the Pretty Protestant Tender, Loving, Caring, Sophisticated,Beautiful, Charming, Intelligent Female side of the clan was not the intended target of the King of England's remark.


It may however be advisable for the PM of England not to put out the best silverware for his tea party with the King of Frances Chief Minister Tourin, Or if he does then he maybe find that he lot less than he started with.

Wonder about the outcome of the quiet chat between the Pope( may his house never catch fire) & Rodger the Dodger. Will it mean Spain gets a fresh start, with Rodger cast upon the pile of de-throned king like James II, maybe they could start a club "Shame of Thrones." The way things are going there isn't going to be much of an inheritance left for anyone anyway. Will the Pope say it is ok for him to stay & split the Catholic faithful, will he kick him out & let Austria & France do a deal to maintain world peace.

When will the Reichsarmee arrive in Milan to ask about the new governments plans?
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Basileus
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Re: Game 10

Post by Basileus on Tue May 09, 2017 3:08 pm

There was a flurry of books about ten years ago, I think, about Chinese voyages of exploration. Certainly their ships seem to have reached Ceylon and probably Eat Africa. So Indian Ocean trade between Africa and China is certainly plausible. There would have been Red Sea trade going back to Ptolemaic times, so I see no reason for there not being an advanced East Africa trade. Not least because the Arab traders who were slaving down the east coast of Africa could have acted as an intermediary with China.
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Jason
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Re: Game 10

Post by Jason on Tue May 09, 2017 7:53 pm

Basileus wrote:There was a flurry of books about ten years ago, I think, about Chinese voyages of exploration. Certainly their ships seem to have reached Ceylon and probably Eat Africa. So Indian Ocean trade between Africa and China is certainly plausible. There would have been Red Sea trade going back to Ptolemaic times, so I see no reason for there not being an advanced East Africa trade. Not least because the Arab traders who were slaving down the east coast of Africa could have acted as an intermediary with China.

A lot of Chinese pottery was found in excavations at Great Zimbabwe a few years back, unfortunately no indication if it was the result of direct trade or via intermediaries.

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Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Tue May 09, 2017 11:14 pm


I was looking at the collection at Fort George in Mombassa......Its later English name not what the original Portugese builders or later Omani occupiers called it.

What they stress at Fort George is the historic triangle trade in the western Indian Ocean based on the Monsoon Winds between the Coastal Ports of East Africa, Western India and the Arabs. Plus the influence of European interlopers from outside who built Fort George. Nothing about Chinese while the Portugese come over as important for ship design in the Indian Ocean but basically as pirates & tax collectors rather than active traders. Sorry Portugese Players but folk memory on this part of the Coast has the Portugese Empire down as you down as a massive "Protection racket". Not even as suppliers of the really popular Venetian Glass which came via the Arabs (and are still really popular today).

The Fort George collection also tried to show how the Western Indian Ocean triangle was linked to another Monsoon triangle in the Eastern Indian Ocean (source of the Chinese Pottery) and the trade of the Med (source of all of the Venetian Glass).

Think its interesting to note here that the growth of the HEIC in the Indian Ocean was based on alliance with local trade families and as shippers inc between the four major trade zones of India - the Konkan Coast inc Bombay, Malabar Coast, Coromandel Coast inc Madras and the Bay of Bengal inc Calcutta. All of these area's had own unique products & trade networks. So its likely that Chinese Pottery in Africa had been traded to South East Asia, then Eastern Indian Ocean trade zone, then Western India before it got to Coastal merchant who traded it inland.

One of the oddities of the Dutch East India Company was that it was willing to pay in Silver and place orders direct with Chinese & Japanese Potters for European Customers. From view point of China & Japan circa 1700 the Dutch East India Company can basically be viewed as your shipping Company to valued export markets......you might not know much about the coats of arms and some of the other designs you are painting but their silver is good to who cares.

The Hon East India from the viewpoint of the Japanese & Chinese Hongs probably look much more like the frontmen and agents of the Indian Merchants. A bunch of Scots and Indians on the make with Cargos of Indian Fabrics and Opium is probably a bit worrying! Indeed the Japanese never did let them in.

From the Rozwi point of view think its unlikely that Chinese merchants will be active.......Coastal Arabs, Indians, plus some Europeans inc Italians and Scots who have a habit of showing up in other peoples explorations. Oddly the HEIC & the English do not seem to be involved with East Africa (other than as Pirates) until later. I wonder if its due to East Africa being linked to the Malabar Coast trade zone were the HEIC were least strong? Also they wanted to keep on good relations with both Portugal and Oman (Their Coffee supplier).

Thus Rozwi Trade Minister (AKA Chief Supplier of Shinny Staff) probably should be a Coastal Arab or an Indian rather than Chinese. But perhaps a place can be found for the odd shipwrecked Scot, Dutch or Frenchman on the military council?



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Jason
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Re: Game 10

Post by Jason on Wed May 10, 2017 7:20 pm

Well, no it is unlikely there was direct Chinese trade-it's going to have been like the Silk Road, good travelled the long distances, not the merchants Wink Though of course, modern politics might have a role to play. In regards African archaeology, until recently the tendency was to play down any indication of contact of any kind (including indirect trade) with the "Far East"...of course with the current political situation and Chinese investment in Africa, this might change...one of the "joys" of my line of work, our interpretation of the past is as much a reflection of contemporary politics as it is an actual understanding of that past.

And I am sure the Rozwi will find the Scots more than happy to assist them with more than a single man...we can introduce them to the delights of whisky, haggis, claymores, golf and tunnocks teacakes. Afterall we're not a colonial people so clearly not looking for based, outposts, etc...we're just nice Wink

As to the Japanese, well later (at Scramble-ish times) they saw the light and welcomed Scots with open arms...imagine what they could have achieved in Glory 10 if they had turned to the Scots rather than the French... Very Happy


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