Agema Publications

A forum for the disscussion of the Play by Mail games from Agema Publications


Game 10

Share
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1587
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: Game 10

Post by Deacon on Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:39 pm


The Jacobites need help, no question, but England was pretty active in game 7 when they got taken over. I assume the player threw in the towel at some point, but they pretty actively resisted the initial takeover.

I think the real problem with the jacobites as a position is why go to all that work as a player? You'll spend years of play time fighting to claim what you could get almost out of the starting gate with a number of other positions. When/If you finally get England, the position will likely be weakened by the conflict, while other competing nations are more likely to have had a good run, leaving you behind.

You really have to relish the challenge of pulling off reclaiming the throne to want to go to all that work. And, as you say, you will need help. France and Spain, and to an extent other catholic autocratic powers all have good reasons to help you, but if you don't get material help, the position is likely to be frustrating in its limited ability to progress.

No real answer. We've talked about the challenge of not having certain positions played and the impact upon the game. No obvious solutions to that problem.

J Flower
King
King

Number of posts : 803
Age : 47
Location : Paderborn, Germany
Reputation : 13
Registration date : 2012-02-16

Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:21 pm

You probably need a lot of determination, staying power & a tad of luck, because as the Jacobite you have to fight an uphill battle, you have to render the English, Scotish & Dutch positions all inactive or nullify at least Scotland & or preferably UDP to stand a chance of takin gon England, plus if the England player is doing his job, he will be racking up his honour score by using anti- Jacobite propoganda & in the meantime looking to form some form of Protestant alliance. Basically you start off with a small position & must wait in the wings for your chance & hope it all goes well because it is a shallow position with no deep reserves to fall back on.

As you poin tout a lo tof work & investment of both time & money for little real reward at least initially. Plus should you get to the top of the hill & claim the throne, just over the nex thill are all those Protestant Nobles & Bishops with a supporting choir of commoners who are not happy with having a catholic monarch.

It can be done as G7 has proved, at least the first hill has been conquered, wha tlies over the next hill is yet to be seen. Esp with war continuing in UDP .
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1587
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: Game 10

Post by Deacon on Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:31 am


It was done in game 3 too. In the short window I played the jacobites in game 7, I followed thei game 3 strategy generally. In game 3, he retook the throne, but agreed his son would be raised protestant, so it effectively ended the catholic line. In the short period I ran the position, My plan was to move to religious liberty and so make it a moot point. Separate the church of england from the throne.

Have to respect the player who took over and decided to burn everything to the ground!

J Flower
King
King

Number of posts : 803
Age : 47
Location : Paderborn, Germany
Reputation : 13
Registration date : 2012-02-16

Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:29 am

I think looking at seven, the player who followed you didn't so much burn it all down as have it all burnt around him , he got hit by the supporters of William & all his hangers on. There has been a lot of harsh words exchanged both here in the forum & in game. It has not been an easy ride for either side in Game seven.

Going back to the alliance & help, England player initially stood alone, but when France came along it seems to have helped him a lot. He was afterall at one point fighting the Spanish Empire, the Austrian Empire along with the HRR & the UDP along with other Williamite factions in his own position. So he has done amazingly well simply to survive, most players would have thrown in the towel & walked away from it.


If the same player had taken on Spain in ten then it may initially have caused a few heads to turn, but at least we would have a position we could all relate to, get the feeling the whole game is waiting for Spain to come out of the closet. Any player taking on Spain is going to get a honeymoon period from the rest of the players initially simply because everyone is waiting to see how it is going to turn out.

So, please, please, please can we get a new Spanish player!
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1587
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: Game 10

Post by Deacon on Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:35 pm


I think the Spanish Empire is a ridiculously huge position given it has colonial holdings everywhere. If you are going to do a reasonable job managing that position, I think you have to be either super focused, or willing to regularly play high turn fees to run the position well. (hint, hint, I am not super focused in Game Cool. Even if you are super focused, maybe you'd be happier in a smaller position where you don't _have_ to be super focused.

It doesn't surprise me that Spain isn't always in play. I think to a certain extent France is an easier position to play IF you avoid the problem so many Frances seem to make of picking too many fights because you think you're big enough to take on everyone (and you almost are).


J Flower
King
King

Number of posts : 803
Age : 47
Location : Paderborn, Germany
Reputation : 13
Registration date : 2012-02-16

Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:52 pm

I suppose Spain is a good candidate for a team position with a tleast one LOYAL Viceroy to support the crown, problem in some games is that historically loyal viceroys/ Companies end up disagreeing with their crown position & either rebel or ally up with enemies to try & take the crown. Maybe there should be an in game clause that such posiitons are not allowed to make war on the central position.

Marshal Bombast
Lord
Lord

Number of posts : 68
Age : 45
Location : Essex, UK
Reputation : 0
Registration date : 2009-01-23

Re: Game 10

Post by Marshal Bombast on Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:57 pm

Could almost do with a China type set up where going against the crown would lose you a lot of honour rather than an outright ban on doing so which kinda goes against the spirit of the game.
avatar
Rozwi_Game10
Prince
Prince

Number of posts : 537
Age : 36
Location : North Yorkshire
Reputation : 8
Registration date : 2015-08-15

Re: Game 10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:13 pm

I've just realised that I've labelled the turn I've sent in for game 10 (Turn 34) as November 1702 when it should be October 1702.

Apologies to those receiving letters from Rozwi this turn. Obviously you'll need to strike out November and correct the date with the actual month of game play for your records.

Doh! Embarassed

Stuart Bailey
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1293
Age : 55
Location : Somewhere East of Bristol & West of Bath
Reputation : 34
Registration date : 2012-01-29

Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey Yesterday at 12:38 am

J Flower wrote:I suppose Spain is a good candidate for a team position with a tleast one LOYAL Viceroy to support the crown, problem in some games is that historically loyal viceroys/ Companies end up disagreeing with their crown position & either rebel or ally up with enemies to try & take the crown. Maybe there should be an in game clause that such posiitons are not allowed to make war on the central position.

Actually, if you started the game with several different Spanish players and they backed different claims for the Crown this would be one way to get the WSS going and re-create the political weakness/crisis that hit Spain in 1700.

While G10 has provided plenty of evidence of Spain in crisis in other games Spain seems much stronger than it was historically. G2 being the classic example since in less than a decade the King of Spain had swallowed Portugal and its Empire and defeated England and France.

But once you have a proper King in place any revolt should suffer badly honour wise. But in many ways the Spanish Empire does offer good opportunities for multi player gaming since the possible positions do not rub up against each other in the same way as the Ottoman or Polish Commonwealth positions.

jamesbond007
Prince
Prince

Number of posts : 421
Age : 48
Location : Norwich
Reputation : 14
Registration date : 2009-04-07

Re: Game 10

Post by jamesbond007 Yesterday at 2:56 pm

I recall Richard splitting Spain in one game of Lgdr. Spain started with two players. Trouble was both players submitted orders each turn and some conflicted so some orders were not put through from both players.

I think the players kind of got frustrated with paying for orders and not knowing if they would get passed or not. One player dropped fairly quickly, not sure about the other. In hindsight, that tactic did not really work out.
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1587
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: Game 10

Post by Deacon Yesterday at 9:20 pm

I’m feeling long winded today, so ignore me if I drone on too long.

I think drops from the split Spanish position is just a different variant of the played/not-played problem that is sort of an unsolvable problem in most PBM games.

Games can be made/broken by drops from positions, particularly key ones.  When you're paying turn fees for a game position that has become untenable, or just not fun, most people will just drop.

Splitting up Spain between two factions is a great idea. But it would require two players willing to fight it out and really go for it, with the winner getting the position and the loser... losing.

When you are shelling out real world money every time you post a turn to Richard, there can come a point where you decide you don't want to keep doing that and drop. It's a perfectly logic and reasonable choice that can have significant impact on the rest of the game.

I don't see a solution to the issue, though.

Some more structured, closed-end PBM games used to make you pay for the whole game before turn 1. So, since you'd already paid for the whole game, you had an incentive, even if losing, to keep playing and to go down fighting so the guy who took you out got slowed down and HE didn't win. Evil or Very Mad

But that's hard to do here in a game like this. Richard could offer some discount on the base game turn fee if you prepaid a year out or something, but I'm not sure that would really do the trick either. Most of us would just use the prepay option to reduce costs for us, without necessarily really impacting this issue at all. So Richard's income goes down, and people still drop when too frustrated because they can see it coming and stop pre-paying.

I think some players are interested in the fun of a big position, but don't realize how much work can be involved and how frustrating a GM Richard can be. It is never easy, even if it really doesn't matter.

For example, this turn, I just finally closed the Spanish inquisition in game 8, fulfilling one of my long-term 'enlightenment' goals. It tooks years of game effort, a lot of turn fees, and a lot of ingame work and still cost me some honour. All just for something that has, as far as I'm aware, zero impact upon my position other than 'style points' or something. That's Richard.

Now imagine you’re trying to navigate something as important as the Spanish succession. You will be repeatedly frustrated and will need to keep hammering away and attacking the problem from as many angles as possible. If plan A fails, be prepared with Plan B, Plan C, and Plan D.

When I 'took' Spain in Game 8 as Portugal I had the advantage of a missing France, and I still spent ~18 months of hard work making it happen with a Spain that wasn't keeping an eye on his honour and didn't see my 'attack' coming. Remember that at the start of the game, The Spanish Player is a Regent, not a royal. You have a lot of power, but your position _IS_ assailable. You can lose your regency.

Compare that to France or Austria. Louis or Leopold could make themselves universally reviled in their nation and still it would be monstrously hard to unseat them. They ARE the state.

Not sure where I’m going with all this, just that I get frustration leads to drops, and that drops can have a big impact upon the rest of the game.

I’ve personally tried to get a number of my gaming friends interested in the game, but haven’t succeeded.

Anybody have any ideas for helping make sure we have fresh blood? I’d love to have more new players picking up the smaller positions to fill out the games.

jamesbond007
Prince
Prince

Number of posts : 421
Age : 48
Location : Norwich
Reputation : 14
Registration date : 2009-04-07

Re: Game 10

Post by jamesbond007 Yesterday at 10:17 pm

I love the game. But 5 weeks per turn and for a big position £30 a turn are turn offs for most in this day and age. That’s my view and position anyway.

Paying for a year in advance would be too short to do much. It could only cover 10 turns. How many turns would it take to conclude the Spanish succession.? Could take many years. Not sure you would ever get two Spanish players play long enough to sort it out.

France in particular could destroy the Spanish succsssion situation any time it felt like it. Don’t personally think the idea would work in reality.

Stuart Bailey
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1293
Age : 55
Location : Somewhere East of Bristol & West of Bath
Reputation : 34
Registration date : 2012-01-29

Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey Yesterday at 11:16 pm

jamesbond007 wrote:I recall Richard splitting Spain in one game of  Lgdr. Spain started with two players. Trouble was both players submitted orders each turn and some conflicted so some orders were not put through from both players.

I think the players kind of got frustrated with paying for orders and not knowing if they would get passed or not. One player dropped fairly quickly, not sure about the other. In hindsight, that tactic did not really work out.

G7 started with a Spanish Bourbon player and a Spanish Hapsburg player (Me  Very Happy ) on the Royal Council of Spain.

Oddly for the day to day running of Spain the Royal Council worked quite well....to avoid confused NPCs we agreed to split up duties & use x2 Military orders each.

In the event while I was strongly Pro Hapsburg the Bourbon faction turned out to be only really interested in keeping the Spanish Empire United, they also wanted to annex Portugal who was being a real pain at the time (Note if events which occured in G8 or G10 had been attempted in G7 I suspect Lisbon and Savoy would still be burning).

The whole Council also agreed that we did not like being told what to do by Louis XIV and was tempted by the approach of the Holy Roman Empire and the the Anglo-Dutch who were offering us drill bored cannon, dredgers, platoon fire, East Indiamen, mutual defence pacts etc if we did not Crown a Frenchman and allowed free trade.

Final agreement of whole Royal Council was throw the partition treaty into the bin (Bourbon faction policy) and Crown Charles von Hapsburg (Hapsburg faction policy).  With all our non aggression pacts (France & England) and mutual defence treaties (Austria & UDP) we were all set to invade Portugal and unite Iberia when both the Spanish Bourbon player and the pain in Lisbon dropped out of the game.

A famine, Pirate attacks on Havanna, Apache cattle raiders, Ottomans and a Franco-Jacobite plot to take over the British Isles etc, etc left a single player Spain with more than enough to deal with without trying to push the Bourbon faction dream of a united Iberia.  Also the replacement player for Portugal sent me a nice letter so we sent him a £2m loan to develop Gold Mining in Brazil rather than a declaration of war.

Unless you really want to screw up Spain and see what players in directly conflicting positions do I think it might be more interesting if you had several Spanish Empire positions without saying you are "Hapsburg" or "Bourbon" faction and just allowed them to split or unite as they see fit round the legitimate heirs (please no more miracle babies or forged treaties!).

Though to be fair the start of G7 was really interesting with a a real feeling of Crisis, working against the clock and a backs to the wall situation for both Spanish players.  Though probably not everyone would enjoy a famine mixed with a feeling that we are about to get smashed by invaders with half the country and Portugal on the side of the invaders.  Think what saved G7 Spain was the fact that the Council did not split, Austria was only interested in a Hapsburg Spain not nicking Milan or other bits and the French were always more interested in their feud with the Anglo-Dutch and did not fancy getting stuck on the wrong side of the Ebro while a Cardinal headed into the hills to preach Holy War.

Also for those who are interested if you can get over the Crisis Spain is a really nice position(s).  I say positions since even if the whole Empire is being run by one player it still plays like several medium positions rather than one large position.  All with rather different concerns and problems.  Having now played Hapsburg Spain for quite a while I am now of the opinion as a player (not my character) that life is a lot easier if you are a Bourbon and get on well with the French Court (not a given either in History or in game).

Sponsored content

Re: Game 10

Post by Sponsored content


    Current date/time is Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:35 pm