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Moving without grain

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Jason
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Moving without grain

Post by Jason on Sun May 15, 2016 8:57 am

Ok, am having a brain freeze, can't find the relevant bit in any rules and can't remember what I've done before hand...

With the 'new' movement rules, can someone remind me-can we move armies/fleets without them having a grain supply? If so, I assume they would pick up a higher sickness level quicker?

Don't worry, not planning to invade anyone (honest ) just want to move some forces around internally...and as we know, there ain't much spare grain in G10...
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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Basileus on Sun May 15, 2016 3:13 pm

Yes and yes. It is possible to run military campaigns without grain as well, It just means that you have to be prepared to have higher sickness levels. In game 7, one of the reasons the French lost the last war was because they were campaigning against the Austrians, then the Dutch turned up and then the Spanish turned up, so their armies in the field had little time to recover during a campaign that ran over a number of months. Its just a judgement call you have to make. I am sure the Russians in game 7 could also say something about how sickness must have affected them with the campaigning in Scotland.

It is a strategic weapon. Work out when your enemy is about to collapse because of sickness, disease and starvation and then push his army beyond that point. Players also need to work out what losses they are prepared to accept as well when campaigning.
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Jason
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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Jason on Sun May 15, 2016 4:56 pm

Thanks Smile

Was sure that was the case but just having those "can't find the rulebook" moments. Am just doing this to move units around internally and over short distances in good weather so hoping the effects won't be too bad.

Must be said, I do like the logistics elements of the games. The relative lack was one of the few things about the game that nagged at me when I first started; in G2 there seemed to be some nations who had regiments and fleets who were constantly moving around the world on "Grand Tours"...

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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun May 15, 2016 10:23 pm


I work on the basis that if you move in summer without supply you pick up 1 sickness level. If it is winter or its raining 2 sickness levels (or one sickness level if in supply).

This is just for the movement...... fighing and actions by hostile agents etc can also cause additional sickness levels.

Some people do not like the new rules because logistics now seem to be more important than tactics but what I like is that in that past a Siege or a blockade was a safe seemingly loss free option and their seemed to be little reason to offer the defenders good terms.

Now if you know a siege is going to cost you grain and sickness levels each month players have an incentive to try a coup de main (like Milan in G10) & offer terms to end sieges early.

Its also forces players to consider the use of "covering" forces since you probably do not wish to fight a battle directly after a siege (without a period of rest). But the use of seperate covering forces costs you more grain....problems, problems scratch
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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Mon May 16, 2016 10:58 am

All very interesting reading.

Summer and Winter campaigning.
How does this work in the games for the southern hemisphere?

I have looked at the climate and seasons for South and Southern Eastern Africa, and obviously recognise that the seasons don't match with the northern hemisphere. I just wondered if the game does recognise this fact, or not?

I'll need to clarify in-game, but I thought I'd enquire on the forum also.




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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Nexus06 on Wed May 18, 2016 8:27 am

Stuart Bailey wrote:
I work on the basis that if you move in summer without supply you pick up 1 sickness level. If it is winter or its raining 2 sickness levels (or one sickness level if in supply).

This is just for the movement...... fighing and actions by hostile agents etc can also cause additional sickness levels.

Some people do not like the new rules because logistics now seem to be more important than tactics but what I like is that in that past a Siege or a blockade was a safe seemingly loss free option and their seemed to be little reason to offer the defenders good terms.

Now if you know a siege is going to cost you grain and sickness levels each month players have an incentive to try a coup de main (like Milan in G10) & offer terms to end sieges early.

Its also forces players to consider the use of "covering" forces since you probably do not wish to fight a battle directly after a siege (without a period of rest). But the use of seperate covering forces costs you more grain....problems, problems scratch

Exactly.

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Re: Moving without grain

Post by J Flower on Thu May 19, 2016 5:25 pm

Problem for the Russians in Scotland is that they started out with no Grain, then got hit by disease due to some nasty civilians using the drinking wells as public toilets.

That is one problem the second is that the cheif ingredent for Vodka is grain, so as a commander the choice is hunger or thirst. Mobile distilleries are a positive morale booster.

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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Stuart Bailey on Thu May 19, 2016 10:30 pm

J Flower wrote:Problem for the Russians in Scotland is that they started out with no Grain, then got hit by disease due to some nasty civilians using the drinking wells as public toilets.

That is one problem the second is that the cheif ingredent for Vodka is grain, so as a commander the choice is hunger or thirst. Mobile distilleries are a positive morale booster.


My feeling is that the "logistics/supply/sickness" rules in Glori are based on Western European Campaigns and Russian/Ottoman/Moghul commanders probably need to think of a campaign which starts with 100,000 men and ends 30,000 strong as normal rather than a disaster as most of the missing men have probably just gone home with their loot after using up the supplies they brought with them and will probably re-join their host next year.

Well that would be the case for campaigns in the Crimea.......not sure about Scotland. Run off to the Highlands to invent something deep fried in Vodka?

The Russians are lucky in morale being linked to the Vodka supply. I have attempted feeding troops, paying them extra for digging, bonus payments for ears, allowing 5 day sacks rather than 3, provision of Priests, Vets & Medics etc, etc ...........but did any of this keep the Jannissary Corp happy? No:(

My current theory is only campaign in nice area's with good wine, sun & friendly locals. This would seem to indicate places like the south of France & Italy and keeping out of Scotland. But this is probably relative!

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Re: Moving without grain

Post by J Flower on Fri May 20, 2016 2:46 pm

Historically the Russian supply system simply didn't exsist, well in theory it did but in reality it was a case of make do with what comes your way. Albeit it wasn't only the Russians that had this problem, being soaked to the skin, or sunburnt depending on season was something soldiers had to put up with. Logistical support was more by luck than judgement.

Even the French when they were on campaign had problems despite all their preparations, it got so bad that there was a shortage of bricks to build the ovens that baked the bread for the armies on the move.

there are many reports of other Nations troops marching like beggers, without shoes on their feet, wrapped only in blankets due to a lack of proper greatcoats.

Plus we are lucky that the Grain with our troops dosn't spoil or suffer from the effects of weather.

Any army will suffer from Sickness, desertions, hunger etc, it comes with the job.

Some areas are worse than others, a posting to the Carabean was considered a death sentence by many, in the Napoleonic era, England alone lost over 80,000 men in the area, mostly to sickness & tropical illness. Some maybe in Game certain areas will come with an automatic SL enhancer.

Bear in mind that most of the general population of the time is only a couple of meals away from starvation,(meat is more a seasoning than a main ingredent ) a hard winter or a bad harvest is a disaster for the civil population, Going to the military was considered by many as an escape route from starvation, in peace time in theory at least the troops should receive regualr rations.

Personally feel the SL are a little harsh, simply because hiustorically the supply system didn't work anyway so making troops less effective is a little pointless, as it dosen't automatically reflect the historical reality. They were mostly starving at least later on in campaigns, when the supplies became short. Also interesting that Grain is required to keep an army in the field in the game but no mention is made of ball & powder, I know naval units can get short of powder & special actions can render armies short of powder as well, but generally little thought has to be made as to supply line to insure a supply of powder & letters from home.
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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Kingmaker on Fri May 20, 2016 5:48 pm

This was why Napoleon ravaged the land and did not care about supplies


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Jason
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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Jason on Fri May 20, 2016 7:09 pm

Problem is that can backfire. Isn't it said that when Wellington's forces crossed into Southern France from Spain, they got more co-operation from the French civilians than the French army did simply because Wellington insisted on paying for supplies, etc rather than living off the land like the French army did even at home. My favourite story (would love it to be true) is that the French peasants insisted in being paid (reasonably enough) in French money...so Wellington took a load of Spanish coins, melted them down and got the ex-forgers in his ranks to make 'new' French coins...apparently these had a higher precious metal content (if the story is true) than 'real' ones.

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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun May 22, 2016 10:51 am


During this period "Modern" Govts/armies based on Louis XIV Frence supplied bread to their troops while private merchants attached to regiments supplied wine/beer etc. But they also sent out "forage" parties to gather in supplies from the surrounding area.

If in friendly territory these forage parties issued receipts for supplies taken which could then be set against tax's or claimed back from local government (but the farmer could have a very long wait!).

In "unfriendly" territory armies had moved away from the traditional plunder, loot the pillage in favour of levying "contributions" and issued receipts for the same. If you are being really nice and honourable you only levy "contributions" at the same level as existing tax.
In theory the town/village which paid up could then claim its losses back from its own government. So in theory if you are fighting a campaign on hostile territory you "export" your costs to the hostile government who ends up paying for its own troops and yours when it settles its tax payers losses.

In theory this system means that you have better control over your Army and lower desertions/losses to irrate locals since half the Army is not off plundering. Also its a lot kinder to local area's and avoids the burning and general destruction of say the 30 years war.

But it must be stressed that this system could break down and people like the Russians, Ottomans etc stayed loyal to their old methods of troops bring own supplies (Each Winged Huassar Comrade used to bring two wagons!) and then "living off the land" in foreign territory. In theory these methods allowed troops not tried to depots etc to move much more freely and quickly and also tended to do a lot more damage to foreign territory.

So in theory if you are invaded by Russians or Ottomans etc its a balance job......the longer you wait the more sickness levels they will pick up and the easier they are to defeat but the longer you wait the more damage your EH is taking.

Ref getting full co-operation from local farmers/labour for sieges/Int reports its best to pay up front in cold hard cash. Some coins with a good reputation may have benefits over other lesser known coins but I doubt if this actually comes into the game. Off course paying your foes farmers for supplies rather limits the damage to the EH but it does tend to back you look like a honourable gentleman.

Ref Gunpowder.........I dont think land battles used that much gunpowder compared to Naval Battles (compare number of cannon in a fleet to number in Army) and Sieges.

During the 4 day Battle V the Dutch Fleet many of the most heavily engaged English Ships were running short of powder and shot by end of day 2. While both Allies and French were running short of gunpowder and needed re-supply at the Great Siege of Lille in 1709. Only actual battle were one side really suffered due to gunpowder was the Swedes at Poltova but that was not a shortage so much as the stuff going off after a hard winter. High sickness level rather than gunpowder shortage in game terms?

As general rule of thumb I work on basis that a full day fleet action is going to empty 50% of shot lockers etc and fleet should look to re-supply/repair. Two days of full fleet action and things are starting to look dicy. Sieges are Ok provided you have a clear line of supply to a magazine but if hostiles cut this the siege could grind to a stop after say a months action.

For details of this type of Siege may I suggest people read Marlborough's Sieges by James Falkner esp the account of Lille and the actions taken by both the Allies & the French to supply/stop supplies to the Siege. OK this is not typical siege as we are talking about a very large Garrison in a First Class plus, plus Fortress so it was long siege but the initial convoy/siege train included 154 guns & Mortars with 3,000 wagons of ammo & materials pulled by 16,000 horses, oxen etc. But it shows almost every type of operation in use to try and disrupt a siege short of a all out attack to beak the siege lines. Which the French considered but probably wisely decided against as Marborough had a covering Army in place with secure flanks & field works inc a 12 foot ditch.

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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Thelittleemperor on Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:18 pm

Rowzi_game10
All very interesting reading.

Summer and Winter campaigning.
How does this work in the games for the southern hemisphere?

I have looked at the climate and seasons for South and Southern Eastern Africa, and obviously recognise that the seasons don't match with the northern hemisphere. I just wondered if the game does recognise this fact, or not?

I'll need to clarify in-game, but I thought I'd enquire on the forum also.


It appears to be taken into account .For example page 33 of the seventh edition rule book says

For Europe , North America , Siberia ,Korea and Japan the best time for marching is May and June then August to November
Everywhere else the best time for marching is December to February .

That's not a direct quote but near enough and the months are right .

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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:26 pm

Yes, we've done just that and used the May & June turns to get into a jump-off area, ready to take it the next step after the harvest / intelligence reports come in.

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Re: Moving without grain

Post by Stuart Bailey on Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:00 pm


A couple of points commanders might like to keep in mind in the C18 the most important logistic factor was not food for the men but fodder and water for horses/oxen/elephants and armies would spent a lot of time basically cutting grass (A grand forage being the normal term for this practice).

Many campaigns in this period basically start when new grass starts to grow and end when its no longer possible to feed animals without spreading them out or taking them home.

European armies in India/Africa/Middle East etc and armies weaker in Cavalry would favour fighting at a time when native armies struggle to feed and muster their their superior numbers of feudal Cavalry.

The other factor to keep in mind is that these rules are basically Eurocentric.......Dec, Jan, Feb are not the best time for everyone to campaign in places like India, Arabia, North Africa. But they are the coolest and when European Regiments can spend a day marching without a quarter of their number getting heat stroke.

If you are a Ottoman Syrian or Indian/Persian fighting a European foe for instance its sod Jan/Feb you want to fight them at mid day in August in the middle of a dust storm. Fight not be great for you but its a lot worse for them!

Not sure how its going to work in south/central Africa since Dec, Jan, Feb is actually their summer.

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