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The Roman Liturgical year in Period

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Deacon
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The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Deacon on Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:03 pm


So on another thread there was a great suggestion to plot out your social calendar in advance, and since there were some things I'd like to become more annual affairs, I thought the suggest was brilliant, and just starting it is helping get a better idea of what I'm trying to do rather than just the "Oh damn, turn's due and I need to do some court stuff, quick make something up!"

BUT....

Figuring out the changing roman liturgical year in period gives me a headache. You can search Easter easily enough, but then you have to count back by hand to ash weds to know when lent really starts. Ditto Advent which starts in November or December depending upon the year.

Does anybody have a good resource for this? I'm enough of a purist that I want to get these things right, admit spending 15 minutes googling, looking up period calendars, counting back sundays, etc, is getting annoyingly tedious.

Heck, Richard, if you're listening, I'd buy this as a supplement just so I had all the key dates in one place and knew they were official.

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by J Flower on Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:37 pm

Problem is the movable feasts But if you look up the Orthodox Calender then you can get the fixed feasts. you will probably need to nail Easter down to one month( April?) as a lot of the calculations go from there.
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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Deacon on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:21 pm

Yes, I notice that Richard for convenience fixes Ramadan in the Calendar. If he similarly fixed the Catholic Liturgical year for simplicity of game play purposes, that would work as well.

Something like:

Lent starts in March
Easter is in April
Advent begins in December

Those are the key movable dates, with Easter bouncing all over (and as a consequence Lent), and Advent flipping between the end of November and the beginning of December.

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Stuart Bailey on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:46 pm

Deacon wrote:Yes, I notice that Richard for convenience fixes Ramadan in the Calendar. If he similarly fixed the Catholic Liturgical year for simplicity of game play purposes, that would work as well.

Something like:

Lent starts in March
Easter is in April
Advent begins in December

Those are the key movable dates, with Easter bouncing all over (and as a consequence Lent), and Advent flipping between the end of November and the beginning of December.

As a added problem I think that in 1700 not all countries were using the same calender.

I look forward to the first war in Glori starting over the correct date for Easter.
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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Deacon on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:51 pm

They all aren't. Most of the catholic ones I think are on the gregorian calendar though, so less of an issue, I think. (I know spain and portugal were both on the gregorian calendar by this time.)

Lutherans might have different dates. The eastern orthodox certainly do!

Edit: as I thought, all the great catholic powers and most of the smaller ones had adopted the gregorian calendar, including strangely prussia in 1610.

A bunch of protestant countries adopted the calendar fix in 1700, which I assume means in game it hasn't happened unless you order. List of countries here:dates for transition to Gregorian Calendar

The wikipedia article on the calendar will tell you more than you ever wanted to know on why the calendar fix was necessary.

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Deacon on Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:11 am


At least according to the wikipedia article, the benefits to trade were one of the key reasons protestant nations embraced the new calendar.

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:44 am

Deacon wrote:They all aren't. Most of the catholic ones I think are on the gregorian calendar though, so less of an issue, I think. (I know spain and portugal were both on the gregorian calendar by this time.)

Lutherans might have different dates. The eastern orthodox certainly do!

Edit: as I thought, all the great catholic powers and most of the smaller ones had adopted the gregorian calendar, including strangely prussia in 1610.

A bunch of protestant countries adopted the calendar fix in 1700, which I assume means in game it hasn't happened unless you order. List of countries here:dates for transition to Gregorian Calendar

The wikipedia article on the calendar will tell you more than you ever wanted to know on why the calendar fix was necessary.


Very interesting,

I now have visions of G8 Hispania showing its centralization habit and ordering Flanders to join Spain, Naples, Milan etc and use the new fangled (well its only been in use for 120 years) Papal calendar.

Also Catholic Lorraine seems an odd one out.........if the French take over under the 2nd partition treaty its clearly going to have to get with the program.

Jacobite Govts in England...... I hope they are having x2 Easter celebrations.....one for the Catholics according to the correct Papal Calander and another for the Anglicans.

As for Orthodox councils called by the Czar to bring the Greek, Russian & Old Believer Othodox Churches into line I can not understand why the correct date of Easter has not been top of the agenda.
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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Deacon on Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:01 am


Well, if you note closely, the catholic low countries did convert back in the 1580s with the rest of catholic Europe. It's all the protestants who thought that fixing the calendar was some popish plot who didn't.

I'm sure it was all very serious back then, but the modern me finds it a bit laughable to not adopt a calendar fix cause reasons.

(But then the british vote on brexit and the recent US election make me think maybe we haven't changed much over the centuries....)

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by J Flower on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:12 am

Try this as a link into the calendar, saintsshallarise.blogspot.co.uk not sure if it is exactly what you are looking for but it may help, The word Holiday is derived from Holy Day, which according to liturgical Catholic calender means a celebration of various saints days as well, it could well be that all these holidays basically hit the economy because everyone is off to church rather than doing a hard days work. This may well be why Protestant Nations have a different work ethic to Catholic ones( controversial statement, sorry if it offends) Up to a third of the calender year can be deemed a "holy day" with its consequences.

In game it maybe worth simply staying on the main Church calender feasts( ok, you have to define which ones you need) Probably possible to get one for every month, especially if you throw in a few Saints days.

While we are on the subject there are probably Muslim, Chinese, African players who also have a chance to delve into their respective religiosity( is that a word) I get the feeling there is enough scope to fill a supplement from Agema.

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by J Flower on Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:38 am

done a bit of hunting around the following may be useful for normal calender dates.

The Julian Calender was/is twelve days behind the Gregorian calender. ( Julian being the Old Style calender, which remained in use in Russia until 1917!) This opens up the chances that different countries celebrate the same holidays on differing days.

The Muslim Calender begins with the Hegira- The flight of Mohammed from Mecca to Medina in AD 622, to calculate the year of the Hegira( AH) there being only 354 days in the Muslim year you need to do the following calculation :-

622 is subtracted from the Christian date, then multiplied by 11 & divided by 354 this is then added to the first deduction.


so 1700 AD
1700 -622 = 1078; x 11 / 354 =34; 1078 +34 = 1112

is 1112 AH

Almost as bad as calculating Fahrenheit & Celsius.

Not sure about the Chinese calender with the various years of the animals etc.
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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Deacon on Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:09 pm


I think this insane calculation is why Richard decided to just fix the date of Ramadan in game. I forget what month it is in, but it is in one of the supplements as a fixed, non-movable date.

Thanks for a the website, it looks like another good site for fixed saints' days. Pedro is forever happy to host a feast for a saint that gives him an excuse to host a glass.

The problem is two VERY BIG events in the liturgical year, Lent/Easter and Advent move around in the months, so for any given game year if you want to be accurate you have to go calculate them or find some source for them - Easter being easy to find, the other two not so much, though they can be calculated which is doable but a pain.
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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Deacon on Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:21 pm



All this does make me think that a religious supplement book would be valuable.

Summaries of the religions and requirements for the non scholarly and key dates. So the major religions would all know their key religious tenets and liturgical events so they could roleplay their religion better.

After all, The Prince of Peace is what caused so many wars...


But them maybe I'm more into this than most players.

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by J Flower on Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:30 am

You could I suppose also put forward the argument, that in the era in question, religion played a more central role in peoples lives maybe instead of gaining honour for attending religious events you should in fact loose honour for lack of piety & righteous deeds.

After all people expect you to be a righteous & just ruler.....

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:26 am

J Flower wrote:You could I suppose also put forward the argument, that in the era in question, religion played a more central role in peoples lives maybe instead of gaining honour for attending religious events you should in fact loose honour for lack of piety & righteous deeds.

After all people expect you to be a righteous & just ruler.....

In G2 Rumelia waged with the full backing of the Kadiasker of Rumelia (later Seyhulislam of the whole Empire):

- A Jihad to save the Ottoman Empire from the Papist Alliance.
- A Jihad to protect the Ottoman Empire from Polish Invaders.
- Another "defensive" Jihad against Persian Shia Heretics trying to meddle in the internal religious affairs of the Empire.
- A Jihad against Heretics in the Janissary Corp & their allies inc a so called Grand Mufti who were guilty of "Shirk"

It also fought with the full backing of the Patriarch of Athens (later Patriarch of Constantinople)

- Several Holy War's to liberate Othodoxy from the Papist Yoke of Venice
- Several Holy War's to liberate Orthodoxy (and Protestants in Hungary) from the brutal Hapsburg and Papist Yoke.

Plus we had several rows with the Russians over their inability to put the Othodox Alter in the correct place, cross themselves with the correct number of fingers and their deliberate and wilfull celebration of Easter on the wrong date. Plus their false and outragous claims that Moscow was superior to the See on Constantinople.

I like to think that it was always clear to "The Army of the Will of God" (name for Rumelian Army in G2) that God was on their side.......and if anyone disagreed they were clearly WRONG.

Not sure how much more of a "righteous & just ruler" you want?

Ref current positions in G7 I am playing a Cardinal & in SFE my character is a English Gentleman who has had tea with the Queen and has given to such worthy causes as Schools for Orphans and the Flashman Home for Soiled Doves (Lord Hardinge thinks its a part of the RSPB)
so God much be on their sides as well.

I keep trying this line with Richard and asking for a plus 3 on all dice due to divine support.......not sure if this is working. But in the words of a French Commander "The moral is to the physical as three is to one" and I find bold and aggressive orders often seem to do better than ultra carefull orders which get used as an excuss to do nothing by NPC.
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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Deacon on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:28 pm


Kudos to you, then. I wish I was around the game then. I enjoy using the game as an excuse to dig into relevant bits of history and theology. In Game 3, I was having an interesting debate as Pope with the Eastern Orthodox on several theological matters.

I think one of the risks of a religious supplement, is that it might suggest to players there is only one right way to play the faith. All the faiths that I've studied have had "Liberal versus Hellfire" factions (even the buddhists who seem to come out as mostly the kindest of the lot to me.)

I don't think it says much to reveal that Pedro in G8 is a confirmed Catholic, but he is an early enlightenment ruler, so thinks that missionary work is great, but the inquisition is a medieval atrocity. (The inquisition at this age being a uniquely portuguese/spanish problem).

His general view is that conversion by force, or threat of force, is meaningless and that conversion must be free. While the Church formally acknowledged this much later, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote to this general effect many centuries ago, so it does have sound theological standing. I don't know enough church history to know what other writings on the subject might exist in period.

But, another equally valid way of playing the position is to embrace the inquisition and root out all those crypto-jews pretending to be catholic!


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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by J Flower on Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:24 pm

There is also the other way of ignoring religion, to a certain extent some rulers who looked more to the Enlightenment rather than the church were of a more live & served the state to the best of their abilities then religion was relegated to second place.

There is also always the danger of stereotyping the various religions, especially if it isn't the one you have been brought up in.

The treaty on Nantes isn't too far in the past in 1700, it has left it's mark on Europe at this point.

Religion played a major part, for many of us in modern times the church is a background noise, but in 1700 it was still going with a force many of us may have found hard to comprehend.

It often appears that the Catholics when they need honour points start talking about a crusade against the Muslims, Similarly the Muslims point up with a Jihad against the Unbelievers.

Protestant Nations are a bit spoilt for choice they can either jump on the Crusade bandwagon, support the Muslims against Catholic oppressors , or threaten to burn Rome to the ground, all these are tried & tested methods.



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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Deacon on Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:28 pm


It seems that the crusades idea comes up regularly in game, but it never really worked for me. The crusades are ~500 years ago at this point. I just went and looked up wars of the 1500s (500 years ago for us), and except for the spanish conquest of the americas and a couple of things like that I couldn't even recognize most of the conflicts.

Not that religion isn't a good in-game reason for a war, but I think the crusade idea is just too anachronistic for me.

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:08 pm

Deacon wrote:
It seems that the crusades idea comes up regularly in game, but it never really worked for me. The crusades are ~500 years ago at this point. I just went and looked up wars of the 1500s (500 years ago for us), and except for the spanish conquest of the americas and a couple of things like that I couldn't even recognize most of the conflicts.

Not that religion isn't a good in-game reason for a war, but I think the crusade idea is just too anachronistic for me.


Strictly speaking if Pedro is not "intending" to use the money for crusade purposes he has no right to collect tax on the Spanish Church.

Indeed in our period the main purpose of a getting a "crusade bull" from the Pope was as a financial measure allowing a Govt to raise ready cash by taking a percentage of the portable wealth of the Church.

Sobieski relief of Vienna was mostly funded in this way.

In Game nothing stops a player from just applying say a 20% tax rate to the Church but its probably going to make you really unpopular and get a low return. However, if you can get the Pope to declare a Crusade and gives the OK you can start turning Church Plate into lots of Winged Hussars and march off to relieve under a Papal Banner which is much nicer than being named as the anti-Christ and a evil dispoiler of the Church.

The catch with "Crusade" funding is that you are normally expected to pay it back (unless you are the King of Spain who gained it as a permenant tax on the Church to fund the reconquest). Which normally means a one off 20% tax followed by several years of 0% tax on the Church.

In G7 Spain does not need the cash but if the nasty Pagans, Heretics etc, ever invade or march on Vienna my Character rather likes the idea of melting down some of his Church Plate and having the foe faced with a Holy Catholic Army mustered under the sacred banner of Saint James and his Most Catholic Majesty giving the signal to charge with the Sword of the Cid. Just think of the Paintings which could be ordered for the Prada, the Poety and Music commissions.

OK, OK I admit it compared to the kindly and enlightened Pedro in G8 the Spanish Govt in G7 is perhaps a little bit more old fashioned. The Holy Inqustion has not burnt anyone yet but its really keen on vetting teachers and school books to make sure they have the correct licences and are of sound theology.
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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Deacon on Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:31 am

Historically in period, the Inquisition was burning people, so if you haven't done anything, these have gone on in the background.

Spanish Inquisition

In Game 8, Pedro has funded a great amount of missionary work throughout the world, so if His Holiness wants to have a discussions about taxing the church and the uses of that money, he is free to take it up with me. I still think that the crusades are well out of period and all the discussions of them more a symptom of modern interest in them, than period interest. They ended badly for the christians, and I don't recall ever reading about serious 18th century calls to restart the crusades.

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by J Flower on Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:08 pm

With Crusades they seem mostly to focus on the attempts to retake & hold the holy land & Jerusalem in particular, it is often forgotten that the Teutonic order was created to crusade in the east to convert the heathen Prussi there, that stood as a separate Order/ country until 1618.

There was also a crusade in France in the south, against the Cathars, who were actually also Christians the only time that a crusade was called against a Christian foes.

By the crowning of many of the Holy Roman Emperors part of the deal hammered out with the Papacy for the coronation contained the undertaking that they join a crusade. Indeed Kaiser Frederich was placed under a church Bann because he didn't follow through on his promise, it was only lifted when he went on the crusade, whereby he negotiated with the Ottomans rather than fight them, & actually managed to get Jerusalem that way.

Totally agree Crusades are most probably in the Enlightened 1700s no longer an option.

Probably religion is used quite often as a justification for war rather than a reason. After all simply saying we are going to war to "steal your villages, rape your goats & nick all your land". Doesn't have the same ring to it as "we go to war as our god given right to destroy the heretic..." although the first statement is your intended end game. Religion is a powerful tool but is often used to mask political action
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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:43 pm

Well I am really happy that I made the decision, when I came back into the Agema fold, to not play a nation with such religious issues.

When I go to war I can simply give the reason that I do want to

J Flower wrote:"steal your villages, rape your goats & nick all your land".

It makes it so-ooo much more easier.

It also means I can't make a mistake in trying to understand a particular point about Christianity, and how it might have been seen during the period.

You watch, everyone will want to play a Tribal nation next.

Can you play the Zulus in Scramble?!
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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Jason on Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:50 pm

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:

You watch, everyone will want to play a Tribal nation next.

Can you play the Zulus in Scramble?!

I don't think so...but perhaps you could play a Zulu leader in a Swashbuckler style? Raise support among the tribe and go and attack Rorkes Drift? Wink

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Re: The Roman Liturgical year in Period

Post by Stuart Bailey on Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:39 pm

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:

Can you play the Zulus in Scramble?!


Positions in Scramble are named after a Country (Mostly European but also ones like the USA, CSA, Nipon, Siam etc which has ambitions to expand rather on on map target area's like Zululand), a Trade Company or a Church.

But are all made up of 12 "Characters" who can carry out different types of orders ie Generals, Admirals, Engineers, Politicians, Men of God, Rebels, Agents etc.

Since nothing says that your Character has to be the same Nationality as your "country" or "company" you could always have as one of your "Generals" a Zulu Prince in exile returning to the home with a few "friends" to reclaim his lost throne. Or you could have a Zulu "Rebel" or "Agitator" character.

Currently China & India seem to have a fair number of native Characters active, not so many in Africa but in past we have seen a Boar Rebel active against British rule in the Cape & a Austrian Engineer go Native (Think the Man who would be King).

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