Agema Publications

A forum for the disscussion of the Play by Mail games from Agema Publications


Nations "Out of the Box"

Share

Stuart Bailey
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1158
Age : 54
Location : Somewhere East of Bristol & West of Bath
Reputation : 34
Registration date : 2012-01-29

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:23 pm

In past games inc LOK Richard has but forward various "Spanish" positions as possible starting positions for players inc:

Hapsburg Spanish & Bourbon Spanish positions in same game.
Viceroy of Flanders
Viceroy of Milan
Viceroy of Naples
Asiento Corporation
Saville Corporation

I also think playing one of the Spanish Viceroy's in the America's or Manila could be interesting esp for players who like detailed trade.  Probably a bit like playing one of the Chinese positions but with added Pirate and Indian Raid's.  Wonder if you would gain more honour by sending Gold & other exotic gifts to the King of Spain?  Or for hanging Scots Pirates?

Have never seen more than two Spanish positions active and then only for a short time.  But in theory if they all agree and co-operate Spain is very strong.  If they do not agree thing WSS is on the cards.

G10 is currently interesting in that the the the Duc of Anjou (Who started as a French NPC but who now seems to have gone Rogue ie under Richards control) has appointed various Players as Viceroy's or at least confirmed their self appointment.

Which leaves the new Madrid Government with a interesting problem.  Does it crown Philip as King and seek to work with these players to achieve long term "Spanish Goals"?  Or does to crown back one his rival's and seek to crush these "Bourbon" rebel dogs?

Have to admit as some of my favourite characters in G10 now include the Bourbon Viceroy of Flanders, Philip's Naval advisor and real tennis partner & his Royal Mistress I am now waiting with great interest to see if I am now to be considered as a Bourbon Loyalist and friend by Madrid.  Or as a rebel dog to be crushed.
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1456
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Deacon on Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:36 pm


Some "out of the box" positions I've thought about:

1) Japan doing the Meiji Restoration early. Basically drop the insular approach, embrace western technology, go crazy and try to conquer asia!

2) Chinese provincial governor try to seize the imperial throne instead of all this sucking up nonsense. Overthrow the Manchu and restore the Han!

3) Start as Pope, try to unite italy. Could probably have a great deal of fun with the Spanish succession given the impacts to Milan and Naples.


Nexus06
Marquess
Marquess

Number of posts : 250
Age : 44
Location : Bologna, Italy
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2015-04-14

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Nexus06 on Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:41 pm

Deacon wrote:
Some "out of the box" positions I've thought about:

1) Japan doing the Meiji Restoration early. Basically drop the insular approach, embrace western technology, go crazy and try to conquer asia!

2) Chinese provincial governor try to seize the imperial throne instead of all this sucking up nonsense. Overthrow the Manchu and restore the Han!

3) Start as Pope, try to unite italy. Could probably have a great deal of fun with the Spanish succession given the impacts to Milan and Naples.


I'm thinking about n°3 but i can't see how. The Papal States has a claim over Naples, which i've tried to exploit unsuccessfully when i played the position. Tuscany has been a subject of war against the Pope back in the renaissance, but further nord there are no claims.

The Spanish succession involves Catholic nations (Spain, Portugal, Austria), so i can't imagine such actions without massive honour drop (but as pope consider that you are owning Malta and the Malta Knights, and you can fight Algerian pirates!)
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1456
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Deacon on Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:47 pm


Pope agrees to back whoever agrees to grant these territories "back" to the church.

In game 3 (very late) when I played the pope, my assessment was that your chief asset is your ability to affect other catholics honour. Talking up one king and down another is likely to have a notable impact if done cleverly.

No, I don't think it would be easy. But it might be doable. Like many games it would depend a great deal on who you got as Spain, France, and Austria. Historically, Other 'compromise' candidates were also looked at for the crown of Spain, so the Pope might be able to put somebody else into play too.


Nexus06
Marquess
Marquess

Number of posts : 250
Age : 44
Location : Bologna, Italy
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2015-04-14

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Nexus06 on Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:49 pm

Deacon wrote:
Pope agrees to back whoever agrees to grant these territories "back" to the church.

In game 3 (very late) when I played the pope, my assessment was that your chief asset is your ability to affect other catholics honour. Talking up one king and down another is likely to have a notable impact if done cleverly.

No, I don't think it would be easy. But it might be doable. Like many games it would depend a great deal on who you got as Spain, France, and Austria. Historically, Other 'compromise' candidates were also looked at for the crown of Spain, so the Pope might be able to put somebody else into play too.


Yes, but you need to have all position playing because it is a very diplo game. If Spain, Austria and Frane find a suitable agreement you're out. Nice but not easy for sure!
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1456
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Deacon on Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:01 am


Yes, it does depend upon other positions, but if Austria is out, you can probably claim Milan eventually. You take it, give France something to back you against Spain's attempts to reclaim. Ditto if Spain is out and Naples.

You're probably stuck if you're in a game 8 situation where there was no France to be found for the first 5 game years!

I absolutely do believe that Richard 'shaves' the dice. By which I mean, If you're a smaller position, victories come easier, and if you're a bigger position, they come harder. Note that putting a thumb on the scales to help smaller positions isn't the same as determining an outcome. I also think this is what Richard _should_ do to help keep the game healthy. Bigger positions can pick on the smaller ones, but there is a risk and they should tread a bit carefully.

Which is a round about way of saying that I think that playing the Pope and "going for it" you'd have a fair chance of pulling at least part of it off... IF you were clever. (and as you say, IF you have good players in the other positions.)


Nexus06
Marquess
Marquess

Number of posts : 250
Age : 44
Location : Bologna, Italy
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2015-04-14

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Nexus06 on Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:03 am

Deacon wrote:
Yes, it does depend upon other positions, but if Austria is out, you can probably claim Milan eventually. You take it, give France something to back you against Spain's attempts to reclaim. Ditto if Spain is out and Naples.

You're probably stuck if you're in a game 8 situation where there was no France to be found for the first 5 game years!

I absolutely do believe that Richard 'shaves' the dice. By which I mean, If you're a smaller position, victories come easier, and if you're a bigger position, they come harder. Note that putting a thumb on the scales to help smaller positions isn't the same as determining an outcome. I also think this is what Richard _should_ do to help keep the game healthy. Bigger positions can pick on the smaller ones, but there is a risk and they should tread a bit carefully.

Which is a round about way of saying that I think that playing the Pope and "going for it" you'd have a fair chance of pulling at least part of it off... IF you were clever. (and as you say, IF you have good players in the other positions.)

Yes you probably have a point in this
avatar
Rozwi_Game10
Prince
Prince

Number of posts : 421
Age : 35
Location : North Yorkshire
Reputation : 7
Registration date : 2015-08-15

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:36 am

Only nation that I have considered in the past - and have seen it in play as a separate nation - is the United States of America.

That would be a nation that I would consider playing, as you can nation build the Thirteen Colonies, create a professional Continental Army and the US Navy, explore West, build trade relations in the geographic area and generally thumb your nose at the English - French - or the Spanish depending on which way the honour score takes you.

Another that has just come to mind is something South American, as in Brazil, maybe. Or, even, Central America, if you look at Mexico.

Anyway, I can't afford to pay another TGOK game, so I'll stick with South Africa.

Nexus06
Marquess
Marquess

Number of posts : 250
Age : 44
Location : Bologna, Italy
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2015-04-14

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Nexus06 on Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:07 pm

I've just asked richard some info on the viceroyalty of Milan. I'm quite curious. How's going in G10?

Stuart Bailey
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1158
Age : 54
Location : Somewhere East of Bristol & West of Bath
Reputation : 34
Registration date : 2012-01-29

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:44 pm

Nexus06 wrote:I've just asked richard some info on the viceroyalty of Milan. I'm quite curious. How's going in G10?

I am starting to wonder if they have put something in the G10 water........no active Russia, no active Ottomans but the game is swarming with Italian types!

For info in G10 we have three people claiming to be Duke of Milan:

- Philip of Anjou........started out as a French NPC but seems to have fallen in some dodgy company and may we be on his way to Agema rogue NPC status. Named as King of Naples & Duke of Flanders* by will of Carlos II.
- Charles von Hapsburg.......loyal 2nd son of HRE, still a Austrian NPC and named King of Spain & Duke of Milan* in will of Carlos II
- King Rodrigo of Spain.........New Spanish Player ........questionable birth Son of Carlos II (?) put on throne of Spain by Cardinal Portocarrero (old Spanish player) even he seems to have doubts about how legitimate his claim is since the Cardinal ignored laws of Spain, laws of Church and will of Carlos II to do it.

* Latest partition treaty drawn up by Anglo-Dutch & French gives option to swap Milan & Flanders but Emperor and Spain seem to want to have nothing to do with William of Orange and his sordid back stairs diplomacy with the French.

Too date only Philip of Anjou has appointed a Viceroy of Milan - "The most Noble Duc of Savoy" or "The snake of Turin" to others. And he is currently running things in Milan in the name of Philip of Anjou.

So in theory you can still be the Hapsburg Viceroy of Milan or Rodrigo's but you need to get rid of the current Bourbon Viceroy first.

If you want to take over a currently in place Spanish Viceroy and join in the debate from an "inside" track the America Viceroy's are still in place and you could ask to play one of them. Then their is Flanders if you are feeling really rash:

Carlos II Viceroy was the Elector of Bavaria (who may or may not be an active player) who has not gone near Flanders in years and goes deaf when ever he is asked who he supports as King of Spain/Duke of Flanders. But his deputy is still semi running things in Brussels claiming to be running things in the name of ??????? Duke of Flanders.

In this usual way Philip of Anjou got feed up with this type of thing and has appointed a Great French-German Noble (who happens to be Chairman of the Compaigne des Isles Americ and a Player Character) to be Viceroy of Flanders...........so in theory you could be the Elector's Deputy standing on the walls of Brussels going "And you and who's Army say I am sacked............Oh that Army the one with all the Lilly Banners"

But if you want a G10 Italian position I think the only one left is the Papacy..........How are you on questions of Canon law ref inheritence of Papal Fiefs like Naples? And Charges of Witchcraft, Devil Worship, Murder and de-flowering Virgin Nuns currently being levied against a senior Cardinal? If you get it wrong you may like to look up the "Sack of Rome" and "The Avignon Captivity" plus "Church Councils" for what happens to Popes who really, really annoy the House of Hapsburg or the Crown of France. Very Happy

Nexus06
Marquess
Marquess

Number of posts : 250
Age : 44
Location : Bologna, Italy
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2015-04-14

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Nexus06 on Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:49 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:
Nexus06 wrote:I've just asked richard some info on the viceroyalty of Milan. I'm quite curious. How's going in G10?

I am starting to wonder if they have put something in the G10 water........no active Russia, no active Ottomans but the game is swarming with Italian types!

For info in G10 we have three people claiming to be Duke of Milan:

- Philip of Anjou........started out as a French NPC but seems to have fallen in some dodgy company and may we be on his way to Agema rogue NPC status.  Named as King of Naples & Duke of Flanders* by will of Carlos II.
- Charles von Hapsburg.......loyal 2nd son of HRE, still a Austrian NPC and named King of Spain & Duke of Milan* in will of Carlos II
- King Rodrigo of Spain.........New Spanish Player ........questionable birth Son of Carlos II (?) put on throne of Spain by Cardinal Portocarrero (old Spanish player) even he seems to have doubts about how legitimate his claim is since the Cardinal ignored laws of Spain, laws of Church and will of Carlos II to do it.

* Latest partition treaty drawn up by Anglo-Dutch & French gives option to swap Milan & Flanders but Emperor and Spain seem to want to have nothing to do with William of Orange and his sordid back stairs diplomacy with the French.

Too date only Philip of Anjou has appointed a Viceroy of Milan - "The most Noble Duc of Savoy" or "The snake of Turin" to others.  And he is currently running things in Milan in the name of Philip of Anjou.

So in theory you can still be the Hapsburg Viceroy of Milan or Rodrigo's but you need to get rid of the current Bourbon Viceroy first.

If you want to take over a currently in place Spanish Viceroy and join in the debate from an "inside" track the America Viceroy's are still in place and you could ask to play one of them.  Then their is Flanders if you are feeling really rash:

Carlos II Viceroy was the Elector of Bavaria (who may or may not be an active player) who has not gone near Flanders in years and goes deaf when ever he is asked who he supports as King of Spain/Duke of Flanders.  But his deputy is still semi running things in Brussels claiming to be running things in the name of ??????? Duke of Flanders.

In this usual way Philip of Anjou got feed up with this type of thing and has appointed a Great French-German Noble (who happens to be Chairman of the Compaigne des Isles Americ and a Player Character) to be Viceroy of Flanders...........so in theory you could be the Elector's Deputy standing on the walls of Brussels going "And you and who's Army say I am sacked............Oh that Army the one with all the Lilly Banners"  

But if you want a G10 Italian position I think the only one left is the Papacy..........How are you on questions of Canon law ref inheritence of Papal Fiefs like Naples? And Charges of Witchcraft, Devil Worship, Murder and de-flowering Virgin Nuns currently being levied against a senior Cardinal?  If you get it wrong you may like to look up the "Sack of Rome" and "The Avignon Captivity" plus "Church Councils" for what happens to Popes who really, really annoy the House of Hapsburg or the Crown of France. Very Happy

Holy Crap!

Well Milan + Flanders it's a hell of economic position!
avatar
Rozwi_Game10
Prince
Prince

Number of posts : 421
Age : 35
Location : North Yorkshire
Reputation : 7
Registration date : 2015-08-15

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:50 pm

Yeah, Savoy captured Milan quite early on in the game and still occupies it.

Italy in Game10 is the 'battleground' for the war of words in the War of the Spanish Succession. They're trying to decide who gets to control Naples, and who keeps Milan.  

As far as I know Game 10 has these Italian states active:

Savoy  
Genoa
Venice

I can't remember if Tuscany is active, or not?

Nexus06
Marquess
Marquess

Number of posts : 250
Age : 44
Location : Bologna, Italy
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2015-04-14

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Nexus06 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:43 am

Nexus06 wrote:I've just asked Richard some info on the viceroyalty of Milan. I'm quite curious. How's going in G10?

Just to close the request with a feedback, the position in G10 is not available (well, we can agree with that as we saw aldready 3 dukes; It is more than evident that the world does not need a fourth!)

Now i can explore those options:

1) Prussian Savoyard: Savoy used to be the best army in pre-unitarian italy. Milan is separated by nothing but a flat rich land. South of the maritime alps lays the rich port of Genoa. The "industrial triangle" (Milan; Turin, Genoa) launched the industrial revolution in italy.

2) Trading Venetian: Venice failed to survive the westernization of trade. But what would have happened if they managed to open suez and cut of Dutch and Portoguese african trade? May the old enemy become an ally? With the Suez channel open, the eastern africa, Basra, Oman and persia, india and Singapore, indonesia and teh celestial empire are "open for business". Venice could become "the Mediterranean UDP"?

3) Tuscanian Reinassance: Being a "De Medici" has it's flavour. Florence is beautifull and Leghorn is able of house any kind of human being without asking, as long as they produce a profit. Tuscany could explore trade options (De' Medici were bankers as first job, Dukes as second occupation) and honour game. Too bad i've aldready seen it Sad

4) Revolutionary Naples: In 1350 the king of Palermo was one of the richest man in europe, three times richer than the king of england. A the moment of the unification of italy, the treasure of Naples hold 65% of the total circulating currency in the peninsula. If you are born in italy, you exactly know were the money is (and you'll bettern know it also if you want to play spain). Naples is the first mediterranean harbour, sicily produce massive grain amounts, not to mention the sulfur mines, producing sulfur wich is mandatory for gunpowder (in our age, the saltpetre was prepared starting by sicilian sulfur in all europe). Cattle was a big thing, expecially sheeps. And vines were profitable too. An ambitious viceroy could exploit the succession war to gain freedom and become the sweden of the south.

5) The papal states: i've aldready played it and all i can say is BOORING. But it's my personal point of view.

6) Genoa: Well, it's the bank of Spain, so play it as swashbuckler or if you are really really buddy with spain, it never interested me.

As far as i know, in G10 only Naples and Tuscany are available, right?

I'm ignorant in german positions. I know Bavaria (wich in my mind exist as Bavaria Wurtemburg), i've seen a massive Mainz-Trier-Saar (but i could not paint it on the map. Prussia of course, Saxony, and that's all i think. Here i need Your Help:

1) Hanover? I know little, but i think it is not only the territory on the map. Right? Should have also Lunenburg (by 1705) and the archbishop of Bremen (city not included). It becomes king of england in 1715.

2) Others???

If you want to briefly describe the german positions, streghts and possibilities as i've done with italian ones, i'll be gratefull.

Also of course if you need more info on italian positions and possible strenghts i'm here for you.

Tnx

Luca

avatar
Rozwi_Game10
Prince
Prince

Number of posts : 421
Age : 35
Location : North Yorkshire
Reputation : 7
Registration date : 2015-08-15

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:41 am

Just gone back through the newspapers and it looks like Tuscany is being played.

Naples, like Milan, is part of the power struggle in the War of the Spanish Succession and it looks like another Italian Duchy will be installed as governor on behalf of France / Spain / Austria.

Italy in Game 10 is very much full. Except for the Pope, but Richard is roleplaying him, where needed, as the Spanish Succession question is the hot topic in Rome with the ambassadors.

I can't help with the German states. Sorry.

Nexus06
Marquess
Marquess

Number of posts : 250
Age : 44
Location : Bologna, Italy
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2015-04-14

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Nexus06 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:44 am

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:Just gone back through the newspapers and it looks like Tuscany is being played.

Naples, like Milan, is part of the power struggle in the War of the Spanish Succession and it looks like another Italian Duchy will be installed as governor on behalf of France / Spain / Austria.

Italy in Game 10 is very much full. Except for the Pope, but Richard is roleplaying him, where needed, as the Spanish Succession question is the hot topic in Rome with the ambassadors.

I can't help with the German states. Sorry.

Thanks

i'll ask your help in swashbuckler section in minutes Smile

Stuart Bailey
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1158
Age : 54
Location : Somewhere East of Bristol & West of Bath
Reputation : 34
Registration date : 2012-01-29

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Stuart Bailey on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:16 am

Nexus06 wrote:
Nexus06 wrote:I've just asked Richard some info on the viceroyalty of Milan. I'm quite curious. How's going in G10?

If you want to briefly describe the german positions, streghts and possibilities as i've done with italian ones, i'll be gratefull.

Luca


Compared the screaming rows which pass for Public Life in Italy, The Court Life of La Belle France and the Oratory loving Anglo-Dutch-Scots the States of the Holy Roman Empire (excluding Austria) seem to be oddly quite. But every so often various states including Saxony, Prussia, Bavaria and Hesse-Kassel and Hesse-Darmstadt seem to do something like sending out a Envoy or a Trade Mission. Though mention of Hesse Darmstadt may have been a mix up with the other Hesse. So if you want a list of free positions in the HRE you probably need to ask Richard.

To my mind having played a couple the problem with playing one of the HRE states (excluding Austria) is that unless you have a particular interest in Religion, Rhineland Steel Making or Music they all seem a bit alike and you tend to have to have to wait for opportunities to arise and then respond to them rather than setting your own policy.

As this point someone may shout:

- Spartan Prussia & the Unification of Germany! - To my mind Prussia has some military advantages but its a Geographic Mess & poorer than many other HRE positions like Bavaria, Liege-Cologne & Munster at the game start. But for reasons of history it tends to attract plenty of players and get more respect from others than the 1700 position actually deserves which may help a bit. But in theory most of the HRE states have about the same chance of getting to unite Germany.

In G1 Munster managed to Unite most of the North in a North German Kingdom in opposition to the Emperor & in G2 first Bavaria & then Prussia managed to unit large area's of the Empire and replace the Hapsburgs as Emperor.

The problem with setting out to unite the HRE from a the basis of a German State is that its already got a Emperor and the Holy Roman Empire really does not want to be united! All the States are fairly tough and liable to Scream loudly about infringement of Princes rights and disturbance of the Imperial Peace if you touch them. This would not be so bad if the rights of Princes had not been underwritten by the Emperor, The King of France, The King of Spain & the King of Sweden.

An added problem is half the Empire is Catholic and half Protestant which means that if your are are the Catholic Elector of Bavaria you can get in deep trouble with Public Opinion for taking over the lands of Catholic-Bishop Princes. While if you are a Protestant Elector you touch Catholic Lands at your peril.

All this means that the unification of Germany tend's to be a waiting game......waiting for powers which will otherwise bury you to come to grief or be otherwise distracted so you can perhaps take a perhaps fleeting chance.

The other option for playing a German state is take one with outside interests:

- Saxony starts the Game as King of Poland

- Prussia starts with a sister who is the newly widowed Dowager Duchess of Courland

- The Elector of Bavaria is also the Gov of Flanders for Carlos II of Spain and holds the French Road to Vienna (and vis versa).

- Hanover & Hesse Darmstadt are related to William of Orange and have links to the English Crown

- Lorrraine has close links to the French Court which under the 2nd Partition Treaty would have seen the Duke Swap Lorraine for Milan.

- Denmark, Sweden & Spain are all really outside powers but hold lands and votes in the Empire.

Development of such outside links can offer great opportunity for HRE players but can be another barrier to would be uniters of Germany. The Imperial Reich in G2 had a very large Hanover shaped hole in it mostly due to the fact that the Elector was also King of England.

Nexus06
Marquess
Marquess

Number of posts : 250
Age : 44
Location : Bologna, Italy
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2015-04-14

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Nexus06 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:45 am

Stuart Bailey wrote:
Nexus06 wrote:
Nexus06 wrote:I've just asked Richard some info on the viceroyalty of Milan. I'm quite curious. How's going in G10?

If you want to briefly describe the german positions, streghts and possibilities as i've done with italian ones, i'll be gratefull.

Luca


Compared the screaming rows which pass for Public Life in Italy, The Court Life of La Belle France and the Oratory loving Anglo-Dutch-Scots the States of the Holy Roman Empire (excluding Austria) seem to be oddly quite.  But every so often various states including Saxony, Prussia, Bavaria and Hesse-Kassel and Hesse-Darmstadt seem to do something like sending out a Envoy or a Trade Mission.  Though mention of Hesse Darmstadt may have been a mix up with the other Hesse.  So if you want a list of free positions in the HRE you probably need to ask Richard.

To my mind having played a couple the problem with playing one of the HRE states (excluding Austria) is that unless you have a particular interest in Religion, Rhineland Steel Making or Music they all seem a bit alike and you tend to have to have to wait for opportunities to arise and then respond to them rather than setting your own policy.  

As this point someone may shout:

- Spartan Prussia & the Unification of Germany! - To my mind Prussia has some military advantages but its a Geographic Mess & poorer than many other HRE positions like Bavaria, Liege-Cologne & Munster at the game start.  But for reasons of history it tends to attract plenty of players and get more respect from others than the 1700 position actually deserves which may help a bit.  But in theory most of the HRE states have about the same chance of getting to unite Germany.

In G1 Munster managed to Unite most of the North in a North German Kingdom in opposition to the Emperor & in G2 first Bavaria & then Prussia managed to unit large area's of the Empire and replace the Hapsburgs as Emperor.

The problem with setting out to unite the HRE from a the basis of a German State is that its already got a Emperor and the Holy Roman Empire really does not want to be united!  All the States are fairly tough and liable to Scream loudly about infringement of Princes rights and disturbance of the Imperial Peace if you touch them.  This would not be so bad if the rights of Princes had not been underwritten by the Emperor, The King of France, The King of Spain & the King of Sweden.

An added problem is half the Empire is Catholic and half Protestant which means that if your are are the Catholic Elector of Bavaria you  can get in deep trouble with Public Opinion for taking over the lands of Catholic-Bishop Princes.  While if you are a Protestant Elector you touch Catholic Lands at your peril.

All this means that the unification of Germany tend's to be a waiting game......waiting for powers which will otherwise bury you to come to grief or be otherwise distracted so you can perhaps take a perhaps fleeting chance.

The other option for playing a German state is take one with outside interests:

- Saxony starts the Game as King of Poland

- Prussia starts with a sister who is the newly widowed Dowager Duchess of Courland

- The Elector of Bavaria is also the Gov of Flanders for Carlos II of Spain and holds the French Road to Vienna (and vis versa).

- Hanover & Hesse Darmstadt are related to William of Orange and have links to the English Crown

- Lorrraine has close links to the French Court which under the 2nd Partition Treaty would have seen the Duke Swap Lorraine for Milan.

- Denmark, Sweden & Spain are all really outside powers but hold lands and votes in the Empire.

Development of such outside links can offer great opportunity for HRE players but can be another barrier to would be uniters of Germany.  The Imperial Reich in G2 had a very large Hanover shaped hole in it mostly due to the fact that the Elector was also King of England.

The three elements i've bolded at the moment are not evident, at least in G9.

Fact is i'm deeeply ignorant in HRE dynamics in 1700 and in the positions. In many cases i can't even find them on map.

I do believe the unification of germany is as hard as for Russia conquering all the 5 holy cities of orthodoxy.

any suggestion for a light&fun diplo-honour position that do not requires a lot of job?

Stuart Bailey
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1158
Age : 54
Location : Somewhere East of Bristol & West of Bath
Reputation : 34
Registration date : 2012-01-29

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Stuart Bailey on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:23 pm

Nexus06 wrote:

any suggestion for a light&fun diplo-honour position that do not requires a lot of job?

If you do not fancy trying trying to unite Germany or at the very least trying to be Frederick the Great Mk2 and lead one of the medium ranked German States into the ranks of the Great Powers.

The states of Germany do offer fairly good options for role playing and diplomacy. Mostly because almost all are ruled by Princes (unlike the Republican Italians), Are members of the Holy Roman Empire and for most players they are in the middle of the map so you always have some neighbours and someone to talk too. Even if its only about who is going to get married to who & the latest Shocking news from Italy & what is the Emperor going to do now?

Generally speaking Emperor's like to have someone to talk too about the Empire & if trouble starts in the East etc are always happy for a bit of help. While the French like nice friendly Catholic Princes on their border plus lots or people like a nice wedding. So a nice friendly German Prince with some good looking sons/daughters or sisters or if a Bishop-Prince Neices and Nephews can do far more for the security of his state and his honour with one wedding than half a dozen battles.

In one game the Queen of France, Queen of Sweden, Queen of Poland & the King & Queen of England were all Germans. With two Queens being sisters to that Famous writer of orders in the form of letters to his friend Teddy mostly moaning about his mother, lover of Music & Arts & inventor of German Marmalade...... the Elector of Hesse Darmstadt. Hesse-Darmstadt did have a Army......well someone had to hold doors open but its main security was in the fact that both France and Sweden were more scared of their mother in law than any foe.

The same can be said about English Ministers who were perfectly happy to crown the Elector of Hanover as good King George I of England. They then found Jason running Hanover as the King's son and deputy.........& general Black Sheep. Think English would have paid almost anything to keep their Crown Prince, his Harem & Janissary Guards out of London and safe in Hanover.

But if you are looking for a position in G10 which is free and offers diplomatic possibilites what about being the The Elector of Pfalz (Archbishop of Mainz-Tier)? This position makes you Archchancellor of the Empire so you can diplom as much as you want in the Empire.......some of the Princes may even pay attention. Plus while you may viewed as the lapdog of the Emperor in some quarters the French hardly ever nail Catholic Bishop-Princes to gates of their Palace Very Happy

Plus if the good Prince-Bishop is a Cardinal you get to vote in Papal Elections?
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1456
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Deacon on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:36 pm


I think it depends a bit on what you mean by fun and Diplo? I note in game 10 that the Rowzi are quite the thing and are at the ends of the earth. They seem to be having a blast and talking to a lot of folks without really having neighbors.

I think you could do the same with a number of the asian positions in any of the recent games (8,9,10). The fact that you're out in the boonies only matters if you let it. If you're the Burmese King who becomes obsessed with european fashions, who is to tell you not to? You could have tons of lovely letters and activities without much real need to commit to war gaming the position much.

Play a chinese governor who thinks that if china is the center of the world, every part of the world needs to be respresented... in your harem.

While these things seem a bit amusing, there are plenty of historical analogs for the behavior. And just because you are an amusing character does not mean you are not also very dangerous....

Nexus06
Marquess
Marquess

Number of posts : 250
Age : 44
Location : Bologna, Italy
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2015-04-14

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Nexus06 on Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:51 pm

Morocco fielded a black slave army of 150.000 Musketeers in era lui 1700. I had no idea about that. Anyone knew? Anyone played it?
avatar
Deacon
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1456
Age : 54
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 38
Registration date : 2010-04-13

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Deacon on Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:33 pm


In all the games I've been in, Morocco was only in play in game 8 for a few months in the beginning as far as I know.

It isn't an ottoman nation, so it has the potential challenge of spain to its north and the ottomans to its east.

avatar
Rozwi_Game10
Prince
Prince

Number of posts : 421
Age : 35
Location : North Yorkshire
Reputation : 7
Registration date : 2015-08-15

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:09 am

Deacon wrote:
I think it depends a bit on what you mean by fun and Diplo? I note in game 10 that the Rowzi are quite the thing and are at the ends of the earth. They seem to be having a blast and talking to a lot of folks without really having neighbors.

We're talking to a handful of player nations and a trio of npc nations.

If we could find a means to talk to a player nation 'very far away' in the game, we would.

We have attempted to contact another player nation who is active in Africa, but nothing came of it for one reason or another.

As far as I know, the only other nation who Rozwi is yet to have dealings with in the game, and who owns land quite close to us, is England. But we're already in contact with their 'United Kingdom' partners so its no big deal to not be, as we'd just be repeating processes and formalities.

Historically, China would have known of the coastline, but obviously at this point in time wouldn't have any dealings except third-party trade. India and Arab/Persian traders would have been present on the coastline buying gold and ivory. At present, none of them are, not that I'm using this opportunity to asking them to do so in the game.
avatar
Jason
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1574
Age : 47
Location : Gourdon, Aberdeenshire
Reputation : 17
Registration date : 2008-08-27

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Jason on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:27 am

Nexus06 wrote:Morocco fielded a black slave army of 150.000 Musketeers in era lui 1700. I had no idea about that. Anyone knew? Anyone played it?


Not played it but I do remember one of the rule supplements does describe them and their role in game, will try and find it...
avatar
Jason
Emperor
Emperor

Number of posts : 1574
Age : 47
Location : Gourdon, Aberdeenshire
Reputation : 17
Registration date : 2008-08-27

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Jason on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:52 am

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:
Deacon wrote:
I think it depends a bit on what you mean by fun and Diplo? I note in game 10 that the Rowzi are quite the thing and are at the ends of the earth. They seem to be having a blast and talking to a lot of folks without really having neighbors.

We're talking to a handful of player nations and a trio of npc nations.

If we could find a means to talk to a player nation 'very far away' in the game, we would.

We have attempted to contact another player nation who is active in Africa, but nothing came of it for one reason or another.  

As far as I know, the only other nation who Rozwi is yet to have dealings with in the game, and who owns land quite close to us, is England. But we're already in contact with their 'United Kingdom' partners so its no big deal to not be, as we'd just be repeating processes and formalities.

Historically, China would have known of the coastline, but obviously at this point in time wouldn't have any dealings except third-party trade. India and Arab/Persian traders would have been present on the coastline buying gold and ivory. At present, none of them are, not that I'm using this opportunity to asking them to do so in the game.  

What you could try is what I've done in G9 as Kwantung. Nearest active player is Moghul India and it's been a struggle to maintain relationships with the main players in Europe as there is little we have to offer each other once trade links are established and a little bit of technology exchanged. So, frankly, to have something to do diplomatically I started during little pieces for the paper, Lord Fong's musings on the barbaric ways and actions of those uncivilised simpletons in far away Europe. Ok, it was a bit of fun and gave me the chance to gently poke fun at what was going on in the game, I doubted it would add anything more than that. However it's led to a diplomatic spat with the Holy Roman Emperor and now the Pope has waded in. Not sure about anyone else but it's added a lot to the game for me Smile
How about a G10 version? The Rozwi's reading of those strange events in distant lands?

Nexus06
Marquess
Marquess

Number of posts : 250
Age : 44
Location : Bologna, Italy
Reputation : 3
Registration date : 2015-04-14

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Nexus06 on Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:54 pm

The articles for the journal are a great think, i remember back in the days when i used to play Papal States i used MS publisher to write down "the Roman Observer" wich was fun.

But i'd like to point out that sovereign of the world used to keep thenselves in touch by lettere just to exchange news and point of views, not necessarily to "close a deal". Now even if you are in the middle of nothing it doesn't imply that no connection can be established

Sponsored content

Re: Nations "Out of the Box"

Post by Sponsored content


    Current date/time is Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:28 am