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Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

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Stuart Bailey
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Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:01 pm

I was looking at the accounts of the Moghul campaign against the Maharatan Confederation in G10 and the thought occured that players and the forum spend a lot of time worrying about Navies (The shot at hull or digging debate), their Heavy Cavalry (The great Lance V Sword debate) the best drill for their Infantry drill.  

But in the vast majority of campaigns in game involve a majority of Sieges and Street fighting.  But favourite defensive designs and the poor old engineers, fortress gunners and dragoons who carry the campaign hardly get a mention.  Anyone like to change this?

Found the G10 accounts from India interesting due  to the mix of defences in use and the aggressive tactics of the defenders who in almost all cases attempted to disrupt the siege before it got started:

1) Nellore seems to have been a classic case of a large Moghul Army and probably a fairly small garrison, or at least one not large enough to take on the Moghul 5th Army in a stand up fight.  But too their credit the Maharatan's stiil launched a night raid on the Moghul camp.

- This raid was not enough to break the siege but it does seem to have cost 5th Army another month.  And as experienced campaigners can confirm delay's in sieges cost sickness levels and supplies.

2) Admadnagar was similiar story to Nellore but on a much larger scale with the Maharatan's launching a "Grand Sallie" with Infantry, Cavalry & Field Artillery against the Troops to the North who they mangled so badly that General Pari Khanna has abondoned the whole siege.

- The success of this "Grand Sallie" shows that forces which have spread out to blockade all four sides of a city can be very exposed to attacks by relief forces or the garrison.

3) Satra was an interesting example of a City with a Citadel in the centre of the city but no other defences.  The Moghul 6th Army assumed the defenders would be in the Citadel and advanced through the streets...... were they were ambushed and routed.

- What happened to use of Scouts?

4) Poona followed Admadnagar in having another "Grand Sallie" or to be exact two.  One Sallie from the main city and another from the detached Singhad Fort which defends High Land to the north of the city.

Such detached forts like St Elmo on Malta and the Montjuich south of Barcelona offer a interesting problem for the attacker.....do you deal with them first or effectively ignore as a distraction?

In this case the Moghuls screened the fort while getting ready to besiege Admadnagar but ended up with two forces having to fight back to back which is always a bit problomatic.


Last edited by Stuart Bailey on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:09 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Error)

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by jamesbond007 on Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:27 pm

I think the above refers to g10, not g8.

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:14 am

jamesbond007 wrote:I think the above refers to g10, not g8.

Error amended Embarassed

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:01 am

Not had to tackle a siege, yet, and I doubt I will - unless its a fortified village with wooden walls.

Only experience I've had with reading about Horse and Musket era sieges was in the Sharpe books, so I'd probably look at Wellington's Indian and Iberian campaigns - and any in France he may have encountered in '14?

My first tactics for a siege would probably be to ask for surrender. Use a spy(s) to open the gate(s). If I was being really naughty, possibly assassinate the military commander, or, even, use biological warfare and let sickness wipe everyone out and keeping them trapped inside until the sickness has passed. Or just do all the above.

Best tactics I've ever heard for surviving a siege was from the city of Derbent. Just open the city gates every time somebody invades, tell them the city is theirs and simply ask to be allowed to carry on with the city's merchant business as usual - paying the new taxes as a matter of course. Everyone is happy, as nothing really changes except who you're paying the taxes to.
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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Jason on Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:56 pm

Thinking what you said about defensive designs. I guess in game there is very little we can do around it, perhaps that's why we don't discuss it much. You can play around with army units but fortresses and citadels are, well, fortresses and citadels; you can't do much to customise them (other than adding outworks)

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:07 pm

Jason wrote:Thinking what you said about defensive designs.  I guess in game there is very little we can do around it, perhaps that's why we don't discuss it much.  You can play around with army units but fortresses and citadels are, well, fortresses and citadels; you can't do much to customise them (other than adding outworks)

Guess I must be in minority in having at least one fortress-city protected by:

- Extended fortifications with narrow wet ditch between it and the old wall (elm trees and windmills on the ramparts, carp & swans in the ditch). Botanical tulip gardens (between the old wall and the new wall). Academy of Agriculture (attached to gardens above), researching a superior hop to improve the taste and barrel life of Belgian beer).
- Citadel
- Countersiege works
- Grain Silo
- St George's Hospital constructed in the neo-classical manner

And I was so looking foward to someone's cunning night attack getting stuck in my V shaped ditch and pecked to death by an outraged Swan!

In theory as well some of my best plans have been drawn up based on fortress defence/relief but for some reason people keep ignoring my "A" class fortresses and attacking little known and puny places. How can I play in the style of Vurban, Richards, etc if people keep turning down the chance to be blown up or drowned?

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Jason on Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:21 pm

How does a grain silo count as part of fortifications? Unless you've got Triffids Wink

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:55 pm

Jason wrote:How does a grain silo count as part of fortifications?  Unless you've got Triffids Wink

If you are planning a long siege rather than the token 40 days food is important & if the attackers are using mortar bombs number one target with your magazines are your grannaries....of which burn rather well.

A good solid grain silo protects your food stocks from going up in flames. Allowing nice kind fluffy commanders like mine to follow the historic tactic of offering double rations/double pay to besieged troops as a way of keeping up morale. Ok this was normally used when troops were being asked to defend a poor position for but it may be worth a try in other situations.

Ok it may not go with the strict Calvinist self image of noble Scots regiments. But for most of my time with Agema I have had forces made up of Albanian Merc's and the like and they expect plunder, loot and rewards and some habits stick.
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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Jason on Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:06 pm

Bah, Scots don't care about the granaries...now if it were the Whisky Store...

Ok, seriously, thanks, hadn't really considered the greater security of silos
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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Deacon on Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:50 pm


I've built grain silos in a number of fortresses to ensure they had proper food stocks in a siege.

My guess is that general sickness levels are what determine most sieges and why so many players work so hard to avoid them!
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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:51 am

I'm guessing a clean water supply for drinking is also a benefit to surviving a siege.

Is there such a thing as an underground water tank that can act like a reservoir and supply water in emergencies? Obviously a man-made water course, properly regulated for flow and water levels, the ingress for the flow being, possibly, an underwater or underground source point so as to aid security.  

Failing that, having a number of large, deep water tanks available for the populace's use would be of benefit. Brick walled and roofed in, to give added protection and help keep the water cool and free from airborne crap (literally). If you employed a chap in a small boat to keep paddling backwards and forwards and stirring the waters with a long pole would that help to keep the water usable for longer, if it wasn't replenished frequently or had a natural source that allowed a flow? Or just make large, underground ice houses and melt the ice for drinking purposes.

Anyway, something I don't have to worry about with the Rozwi Very Happy

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:07 am

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:I'm guessing a clean water supply for drinking is also a benefit to surviving a siege.

Is there such a thing as an underground water tank that can act like a reservoir and supply water in emergencies? Obviously a man-made water course, properly regulated for flow and water levels, the ingress for the flow being, possibly, an underwater or underground source point so as to aid security.  

Failing that, having a number of large, deep water tanks available for the populace's use would be of benefit. Brick walled and roofed in, to give added protection and help keep the water cool and free from airborne crap (literally). If you employed a chap in a small boat to keep paddling backwards and forwards and stirring the waters with a long pole would that help to keep the water usable for longer, if it wasn't replenished frequently or had a natural source that allowed a flow? Or just make large, underground ice houses and melt the ice for drinking purposes.

Anyway, something I don't have to worry about with the Rozwi Very Happy

If you want to survive a siege either as defender or attacker supplies of clean water, food and ammo are key.  A classic example of water use by the defender being the Turkish Siege of Malta were the defenders had deep wells and deep cool rainwater cisterns inside the city and had dumped dead animals etc in the springs and wells outside of the city.  Result by the end of the siege half the Turkish Army was sick which was one of the major reasons why the siege failed.

But on the other hand some sieges were cut very short following an outbreak of disease amomgst the defenders, ammo explosions (Turks seem to have had a bad record with these....Belgrade, Athens etc), or loss of water supply.  Running out of food and being starved out rarely seems to have been a issue unlike in earlier periods but being put on half or even quarter rations was not uncommon and probably hurt morale.  Ditto running out of beer & tobacco!

In game your supply position & general heath of troops is reflected in your Sickness Level but sometimes additional info is shown like "low of gunpowder" and "Disease outbreak".  My advise if you get the disease message and it is early days in a siege is ABANDON the siege and go somewhere you can seperate the sick from the healthy.

Broadly speaking if you are the attacker you can try and shortcut things by bombardment of the city trying to blow up magazines, burn grain, spread disease due to the dead bodies and hit water cisterns.  But you then lower the value and defensive potential of the city when its yours and disease can easily spread to your side.  Which was why the classic siege in form tried to avoid such things.

So how do players line up? Are you a fomal siege every time man.....its the actions of a cad to endanger civilians?  Or do you belong to the blast the hell out of everything school........just get me out of this trench (its cold, my sickness level is going up alarmingly and the water level is now past by knee's:affraid: ).
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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:43 pm

I'd rather use other means to have the place I was after secede and then assimilate them into my holdings.


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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:51 am

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:I'd rather use other means to have the place I was after secede and then assimilate them into my holdings.


Most people also prefer other options and to be fair the Great Moghul did invite the Princes of Southern India to dinner at his Palace but for some strange reason they were all busy washing their heir or had some other reason not to show up.

He then seized a lot of places by "coup de main" etc

But at the end of the day the all the "cunning" options have been used up, the gates are closed, barred and triple locked and no one on the inside are going to open them for you & you have three options: a) Storm b) Blockade or c) Siege.

For the Rozwi their lack of spades will probably make a siege a non option......but then again a timber stockade is not exactly Lille.

But the good news for the Rozwi in G10 is that some people are building European style fortifications in southern Africa so they may at some stage have a reason to study sieges.........chapter one.....The SPADE.

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by J Flower on Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:09 am

Interesting topic this one,

Probably many of us are table top war gamers & Siege operations don't make for a battle you can finish in an evening, so we basically fall back on either the formal siege as per the history books, or go for the storming ladders & cross our fingers. Could also possibly be that we are too focused on our spies & agents breaking into embassies & government buildings whereas they could be used in a more low level way, to find out how well cities are defended, or indeed if defenders are there at all

Another part of warfare that I think isn't given it's full impact in game is the "small war" the battle of the posts, where irregular units clash often the fringes of the war, these were important intelligence gathering parts of the period. Many of the units involved were not trusted on the battlefield but were maintained because they could scout out the land & everything in it. Try attaching a Patrol of light troops to an army formation.

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by jamesbond007 on Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:36 am

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:I'd rather use other means to have the place I was after secede and then assimilate them into my holdings.

Richard does not usually allow you to gain Towns that easy. If you want them, and they are worth anything, you have to buy or fight for them. If there are many, you will have to fight for them.

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:20 am

Thanks jamesbond007, that's very interesting to know.

Yeah, I'd rather use culture or religion to sway the popular opinion of another settlement or region and have them decide to come over to my country that way. Obviously the use of spies sowing dissent and doing other spy stuff would help, as well as seducing the local foreign officials to your way of thinking and have them sway the crowd/mob to be happy to switch allegiance and national ownership.

If we're looking at Africa, specifically, I can't see the point of attacking a European enclave. Let them struggle to bring the fight to us, watch them suffer through SL# and attack their lines of supply and communication, use Africa itself to weaken the European force to such an extent that they've defeated themselves in their war. If they wanted to barricade themselves behind walls, on the coast somewhere, let them. What use is a walled-in settlement which has become dependent on supply from far afield, over seas, when the land around them has become hostile and deadly to White presence.

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:29 am

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:. What use is a walled-in settlement which has become dependent on supply from far afield, over seas, when the land around them has become hostile and deadly to White presence.

Slave Raid's pirat (Ditto raids for Gold & Ivory)
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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:54 am

I suppose the continued threat of raids would tie down military forces disproportionate to the actual raiders strength, so yeah, using that to bleed the other nation of funds and troops would be of use.

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Deacon on Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:37 pm

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:I suppose the continued threat of raids would tie down military forces disproportionate to the actual raiders strength, so yeah, using that to bleed the other nation of funds and troops would be of use.



I think smaller positions have an easier time growing than bigger ones do. The gamemaster wants to prevent size from dominating, so things are just harder for the big positions. So I think the Rowzi will have a much easier time bringing other tribes into the fold early by agents/politics than larger realms (say the Moghul) would.

Good luck in bleeding the major colonial powers though. Most of them have so much money that the cost of a fortress on the African coast isn't even noticeable.
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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:12 pm

I've just remembered that I was going to look into where there was actual stone forts in south and south east Africa pre-1700.

I've also got to look up the purchase rules for fortresses, etc., as surely it'll be difficult to construct a new stone fort in Africa or South America or China Seas/Pacific than it would in the developed areas of the globe. Though I suppose they used local materials as best they could, substituting where necessary with what they had and what worked to create the construction methods needed. Possibly it'll be quite interesting.

I read a book on the development of Kenya in the C19th, and I know the Victorian's really struggled the further inland they got. Driving the railway inland and transporting the tools and materials for the building work construction.

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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Jason on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:03 pm

In G2 I did find constructing a fortress in Southern Africa was more complicated than in Europe. I had an existing fortress and decided to build a citadel. Had no civilian population, only a military garrison and that had to do the building (so couldn't do anything else for a year).
Also had the problem of finding recruits to garrison the fortifications. Can see that being a problem, esp early in a game (where G10 is now). Do you send recruits to hold on to a few coastal outposts in Africa or to keep them at home to defend your towns against your neighbours? I can imagine that right now, most powers would accept the loss of an outpost in Africa as we focus on the threat of a Spanish war
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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Deacon on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:45 pm


Yes, but I'd encourage taking the long view as one of the places with a lot of colonies. Pick your enemies carefully, because once you've made them, they're yours to keep!

Spanish civil war/crisis is certainly a distraction, but it will eventually end. You need to plan for the long term.

But if you're gung-ho to burn it all to the ground, don't let my cautious nature stop you!
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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Jason on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:57 pm

I think we are in virgin territory a bit. Might be the first time we've had a really active Southern African player?
Also, not sure we've ever had a European position really try to expand into Southern Africa...
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Re: Sieges in Glori du Roi - Moghul lessons in G10

Post by Deacon on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:00 pm

Jason wrote:I think we are in virgin territory a bit. Might be the first time we've had a really active Southern African player?
Also, not sure we've ever had a European position really try to expand into Southern Africa...

I'm doing a bit in Hispania in Game 8, but this is the first game I've seen with an active African player. I'm glad somebody appreciates the challenge!

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