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What I like and what I don't

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Deacon
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What I like and what I don't

Post by Deacon on Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:16 pm

Things I like about The Glory of Kings

Building a position For those fans of Sid Meiers Civilization series of games, I love the build-up of a position. From the scientific breakthroughs that make your position just a little bit stronger, to the brand spanking new army or fleet of lineships that are just waiting for an enemy to dare to test you.

Learning history As an American, albeit a well-travelled one, I often lack a lot of later history in Europe. I can find just reading history relatively dry, but if Im actually playing a position where the history is relevant, it really becomes very fun to read and learn. Weve joked about looking at historical palaces and the like and calling them ours, but that sense of linkage is also what makes the history really come alive for me.

Trying to be clever So the rule books are full of players clever ideas that got turned into game rules and developments. Can I come up with a brand new idea that fits historically that will advantage my position? One that might one day end up in the next version of the rule books as a suggestion for other players to pursue?

And, of course, when a plan comes together!

Things I dont like about the Glory of Kings:

Game pace Game pace is naturally pretty slow, and recent turn-around time hasnt helped. But even if it was fast, it isnt that fast. You get the turn for 2 weeks, Richard processes for a week. 3 weeks all-in. So in 10 years in the real world, just ~14.5 years pass in game. Youre almost playing in real-time! To me, thats a strong disincentive to commit to some long-term plans. It also means serious delay-of-gratification on the plans that you do commit to. I see no obvious solution to this problem, but I do think it impacts player decision making in the game (as it should!).

Random Luck of Played Positions Sometimes your key neighbor is a played position. Sometimes theyre not. The randomness of what positions have players and dont has a lot of effect on how the geo-politics of a game unfolds.

So heres a question for the player base, how price sensitive are you? If you could get a discount on a pre-paid year of play, but you dont get to pick the position(!), would you be interested? I wonder if Richard offered something like that so that he could put players in positions that games would benefit from having even if theyre odd-ball, if the players would bite? I think as a business Agema would want at least a year commitment pre-paid before thinking about offering a discount. Particularly since time is literally money to Richard.

I also think it might be useful to have a rotating list of interesting available positions updated on the forums. I dont want to get sucked into another game, but I know I might get tempted if Richard posted open positions.

So What are your key joys? What are your pet peeves? If you could change one thing about the game, what would it be?
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Jason on Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:08 pm

I would say my only peeve is the slow turn turnaround (though it does seem to be speeding up again). I don play the long game with 5 year plans so does take some patience to see what I'm up to coming together.

For me, my joys are nation building. I love taking a position and modernising its infrastructure, improving its economy, building up its military (usually to a historical model). I also get a kick out of researching the history of a position and using that to plan how I play the game. I also love the interaction with other players.

I also love coming across new inventions or military units that an be added into the game and used by others as well as myself.

I particularly enjoy watching the interaction of other players when I'm playing a more 'isolated' position, e.g. watching the verbal sparing in Europe when playing China.

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by jamesbond007 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:20 pm

For me, you have to pick a position you like. But you could have a year prepaid at a cheaper rate. I would be up for that. But what about extra orders,? There would still be an extra cost each turn, do that kinds of defeats the purpose.

I like quicker turns. The quicker the better. I am sure the slowness of the game puts off some potential players. But I understand it's hard to quicken it up, less than 3 weeks a turn.

I like the idea of a rotating list of avaliable positions. Good idea.

If I could change one thing about the game, it would be honour. Have a ball each turn and talk about court life and you gain honour. Take ten towns in combat and you don't gain a single honour point. I cannot agree with that. The game favours political play over warmonger plays.
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Kingmaker on Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:21 pm

I like pulling off sneaky stuff...... lol!


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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:52 pm


I dislike:

1) Positions which are wrecked by multi poor harvests early in the game.

2) Players who do not answer by letters......even with a couple of lines.

In a number of wars have also ended up annoyed with my "allies"........mostly NPC but also the odd Player Character as well.

I have theory that Richard gives different groups a annoyance score from 1 " Happy to listen to logic & do something for reasonable payment" up to 5 "The Grand Mufti, The Janissary Corp & most Hungarian & Polish Diets"
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Jason on Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:40 am

I'd agree on harvests

As to allies...well if you will chose to ally with who you do...I mean, if (for example) you made nice with the Scots, Dutch and English in G10 you'd find a bunch of trustworthy, upstanding allies...ok, we like to hang pirates but you can't have everything your own way...I mean we like to burn devil worshipping witch-y Catholic priests...

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:23 am

Jason wrote:I'd agree on harvests

As to allies...well if you will chose to ally with who you do...I mean, if (for example) you made nice with the Scots, Dutch and English in G10 you'd find a bunch of trustworthy, upstanding allies...ok, we like to hang pirates but you can't have everything your own way...I mean we like to burn devil worshipping witch-y Catholic priests...

Think perfectly good positions being ruined by a series of poor harvests early in the game is everyones pet hate and if its not you have probably not had in happen to a position you are running or lost a key ally due to such problems.

As for allying with the Anglo-Dutch-Scots......been there, done that, have the scar's!

In G7 playing Hapsburg Spain I remained a loyal to old allies in the League of Augsburg including that particular dodgy bunch & what happened????

- The English started a war with French which dragged me in..........then they abandoned their allies mid war and crowned a pro French Jacobite.

- The Dutch with support of other "English" positions like the HWIC attempted to remove a very, very, unpopular NPC Jacobite Govt & missed a open goal from about 5 yards. I mean how hard is it to find a landing spot in the British Isles when Scotland is friendly and the Royal Navy is in port and close to Mutiny?

- Scotland ......Dont get me started! Its cold! Its wet!! No good Wine!!! Sods waited to their allies had landed then handed over their King & the greatest Hapsburg hero of all (Prince Eugine) to the Jacobites who cut their heads off.

Since in G7 I have now semi betrayed the Dutch-Scots (sorry about that.......but it was Scotland or Flanders/Franche Comte:D ) and been at least partly responsible for part's of Scotland & England getting trashed still want me as a Ally?Shocked

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by J Flower on Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:13 am

Still willing to bring the Matches if you sort out the oil, burning Rome is still an option.

Old habits are hard to shake.

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Nexus06 on Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:57 pm

Like

1. Running the position building and planning
2. Role playing sub themend stories while waiting for plans to come around
3. Receiving letters.
4. Lord Fong

Dislike

1. harvest failure
2. Honour score waving beyond understanding
3. Lucky nations growing in HR by simply waving hands.
4. Have to wait one month per turn.
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Jason on Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:34 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:
Jason wrote:I'd agree on harvests

As to allies...well if you will chose to ally with who you do...I mean, if (for example) you made nice with the Scots, Dutch and English in G10 you'd find a bunch of trustworthy, upstanding allies...ok, we like to hang pirates but you can't have everything your own way...I mean we like to burn devil worshipping witch-y Catholic priests...

Think perfectly good positions being ruined by a series of poor harvests early in the game is everyones pet hate and if its not you have probably not had in happen to a position you are running or lost a key ally due to such problems.

As for allying with the Anglo-Dutch-Scots......been there, done that, have the scar's!

In G7 playing Hapsburg Spain I remained a loyal to old allies in the League of Augsburg including that particular dodgy bunch & what happened????

- The English started a war with French which dragged me in..........then they abandoned their allies mid war and crowned a pro French Jacobite.

- The Dutch with support of other "English" positions like the HWIC attempted to remove a very, very, unpopular NPC Jacobite Govt & missed a open goal from about 5 yards. I mean how hard is it to find a landing spot in the British Isles when Scotland is friendly and the Royal Navy is in port and close to Mutiny?

- Scotland ......Dont get me started! Its cold! Its wet!! No good Wine!!! Sods waited to their allies had landed then handed over their King & the greatest Hapsburg hero of all (Prince Eugine) to the Jacobites who cut their heads off.

Since in G7 I have now semi betrayed the Dutch-Scots (sorry about that.......but it was Scotland or Flanders/Franche Comte:D ) and been at least partly responsible for part's of Scotland & England getting trashed still want me as a Ally?Shocked

Oh Stuart, Stuart, Stuart...I'm not talking G7 but G10 where the Scots, English and Dutch are honourable, trustworthy, decently spiffing chaps, the League of Honourable and Extraordinary Gentlemen...ok, we might want to hang pirates and burn witches but that aside...

And Scotland needs no wine...we have good Scotch and damn good beer...and I promise not to feed haggis to allies...enemies however...when we catch those pirates they will dine on the finest haggis, breakfast, lunch and dinner...and double haggis for supper as a treat...
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:26 am

jamesbond007 wrote:
If I could change one thing about the game, it would be honour. Have a ball each turn and talk about court life and you gain honour. Take ten towns in combat and you don't gain a single honour point. I cannot agree with that. The game favours political play over warmonger plays.

Conquering territory and seizing towns will only increase military glory - which will only be recognised if your nations military minded, I suppose?

Would recognising victorious generals, bestowing on them titles, riches and estates, holding a ceremony to their triumph and awarding them a ceremonial weapon, or the like, not increase your Honour score and work alongside your own military success?

Recognising a unit that has performed valiantly, giving it special recognition through a uniform piece or banner, awarding the unit commander reward, they might raise Honour as well, possibly?

Then there's also the use of the royal harem, marriage, or elevation to nobility, that can be awarded to a npc character and/or his family. Spreading the laurels of victory amongst the nation's nobility should improve a player's character's Honour, as such would sway opinion in your favour?

That's how I'd do it, at least. Unless it didn't work, then its back to the drawing board.

I'm playing Rozwi as a military position. The Army is the thing to be in, and conquest the ultimate sign of success. There's been no war(s) to profit from, so far, but I've used the above methods already to boost my own Honour in Game 10 to FOURTEEN (November 1701 - the secrets out! affraid ). The Changamire is also head of the main army, so his personal Honour will, hopefully, rise with military success as the Army is staffed with the nation's Chiefs that were provided in the start up turn.

If it all goes tits up, mind, I'll have to give peace a chance

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by jamesbond007 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:56 pm

Hi Rozwi.

Some good ideas thanks,I have tried a few of them. Sometimes you gain the odd point, mostly you don't. I will have to try more.

Surely your Nobles are impressed if you gain 10 towns. Many more recruits, much more tax revenue.? I always feel the military side of the game does not get the rewards the political side does.

Best wishes Roy.
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:29 pm

I ended up reading a fiction novel with the Moghuls as the characters after the local library was selling it off cheaply.

Empire of the Moghul: The Tainted Throne

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_the_Moghul

I don't know how historically accurate it all is, as Moghul India isn't my interest, but it was quite an easy and fun book to read for TGOK ideas.

The army and conquest/quelling rebellions features a lot in the book I read. But I got the feel that the Moghul court in the story wasn't that bothered about what happened outside of the royal palace or noble society. The court was as much ruled by females, directly and indirectly, as it was males, and yes, some women were interested in the military side of the empire, but for most of the court it was very much like France's Versailles or China's Forbidden City. Pleasure, politics, splendour, deceit and illicit affairs.

I've also seen books on Moghul art, and saw a documentary on BBC4 about the Treasures of the Indus Valley that had Moghul cultural pieces shown. I can't remember much about celebrating the military conquests of the empire, but its another option in the game. Start making the Palace Harem and the Royal Ladies apartments in the Harem more attuned with the Emperor's military tastes and you might see a change in the court's interests, as the women become more interested in men in uniform and watching military pageantry instead of camel races or poetry readings*. At least that's my thoughts on it, as it all just came across as more civilised and 'romantic' from what I've seen and read.
* though it might be interesting working within the laws of Purdah

Look at C19th Britain. For most of the first part of the century people at home liked to read and hear about victories, but they weren't that interested in the military unless it effected them directly. Come the British Empire and its all about men in uniforms. Paintings of men in uniforms and battles fought. Medals, captured guns and flags and whatever. The British military was probably seen in one form or another and influenced daily life, thanks to art and advertising, etc., even though it was serving far from home and territories gained didn't benefit people much at all in Britain, noble or commoner. But it was the legend of the British military, I suppose.

Saying all that, I'm probably wrong. With Richard quietly reading this and laughing at what I've wrote (and plotting Rozwi's downfall) lol!
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Jason on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:52 pm

I wonder if honour is a bit more complex than we sometimes think. I often feel Richard has done a lot of research and understands what was considered 'honourable behaviour' in the period in different nations. Have to be honest, of the positions I've played over the years, the only one where throwing banquets seemed to directly benefit honour was Denmark.

England-only played it for a brief while in one game but never worked out how to increase its honour
Russia-See England
China-throw all the banquets you want, doesn't do your honour any good. Now, giving the Emperor a gift (the right gift, not just any old gift) will benefit your honour
Persia-be nice to everyone and convince Oman to leave your property without having to kill anyone, honour goes up
Scotland-banquets might help a bit but basically go "See You Jimmy" to the French-Spanish Minister for Pirates and honour goes stellar

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by jamesbond007 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:26 pm

Very interesting Rozwi, thanks. It is hard to see exactly what moves Moghul honour. I have not found the answer yet.

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by J Flower on Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:08 am

With honour, it may also be worth looking at the historical rivalries that existed, so tension between Hapsburg & Bourbon dynastic claims could have a direct influence on honour, plus the rivalry between Russia & Sweden, or England & France, is you are taking a swipe at the perceived historical National foe this may influence honour.

Plus keeping the most influential parts of society happy may help, be it the Diet, Church or merchants, each nation has different springs & cog wheels driving it's internal works so what works for one position may not influence others.

Maybe victories in battle need to be linked in with parades of soldiers marching with captured cannon & standards when they return home, or having enemy muskets put on display in a form of self publicity. Sometimes blowing your own trumpet is the only option

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by jamesbond007 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:20 am

I remember in a previous Moghul position. I held a medal ceremony for my conquering troops. I never got a point for that either and it cost me a couple of hundred thousand pounds.

Thanks for the ideas everyone.
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:35 am

When I looked at playing Gujerat in a game I had ideas of grand archetural and ornamental design, inspired by the great Moghul residences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalimar_Gardens,_Lahore
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalimar_Bagh,_Srinagar

It isn't something that I can replicate easily in Africa, but there is the fact that Khami and the Rozwi are a little more advanced than the usual wood hut and cow pat floor kraals of other places in the continent. Definitely I'll be casting an eye over the Portuguese and Omani designs of my neighbours and offer a tribal interpretation to give the royal kraal of the capital an air of bucolic splendour not seen elsewhere in the kingdom.

I just need to win a military campaign, now, so I can plan my Triumph.

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Thelittleemperor on Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:02 pm

Perhaps printing pamphlets all about such derring do as taking other cities and have them distributed free will raise the honour score ...then again...
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Deacon on Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:31 pm


I started another thread on Honour since I think it's a topic on its own.

Harvest failures is one I didn't mention hating, but I do. At least I hate how hard it is to deal with in the early game and wish there were more options.

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:59 pm

Okay. Here's one of my hates. Not that I expect a fix (it isn't possible for a start, nor desirable for most).

I'd love to know which TGOK nations the other forum players are.

Don't tell me, as it'll probably spoil the fun of playing. But when I read a forum post from someone, especially in the game 10 topic, I'm itching to know which position they are and do I have in-game contact with them, or not?

It isn't really a hate, though, is it.
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Jason on Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:16 pm

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:Okay. Here's one of my hates. Not that I expect a fix (it isn't possible for a start, nor desirable for most).

I'd love to know which TGOK nations the other forum players are.

Don't tell me, as it'll probably spoil the fun of playing. But when I read a forum post from someone, especially in the game 10 topic, I'm itching to know which position they are and do I have in-game contact with them, or not?

It isn't really a hate, though, is it.

I think a lot of us are quire open about which positions we play. Looking at a lot of postings in G10, for example, I do feel its obvious who is who Smile Having said that, when playing as the Russian Far East in G7 I didn't mention it in public but that was because it was a vulnerable position at first, last thing I needed was a Dutch Fleet coming out of Batavia and laying waste to a (then ) undefended Singapore.

On grain and harvest failure. I find it frustrating early in a game when there just isn't spare grain around; I've suggested it before but I do feel when you take on a position it seems fair to have a grain supply, maybe just enough to see you through one harvest failure-of course if you then use that grain for other things that's your decision. One thing the threat of harvest failure has done is changed my game play and the first thing I now do in a position is establish a fishing industry to help offset the risk of harvest failure.

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Stuart Bailey on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:12 pm


Have Scots considered that pushing both their Fishing Industry & their honour by being horrid to Corsairs may be a bit problomatic?

Not sure if its my paranoia or not but I am fairly sure that people gain honour by saying nasty things about my characters but some how it does not seem to work the other way round.

Not very good on the topic of how to improve honour but what I would say is that visiting holy sites is a good way to improve honour......just make sure you visit the right ones....a Muslim Great Moghul visiting a lot of Hindu Holy Sites and trying to pamper the "mob" will see his honour drop like a stone.

Still like the old LAOK system were you had three scores ref your popularity with a) The Nobility b) The Church & c) The Commons.

Also if your are in a co-operative position like the Ottoman Empire, Holy Roman Empire or Polish Commonwealth getting on well and saying nice things about each other is a really good way to improve honour. While falling out with them is a really good way to reduce your honour.

Feel my true expert knowledge is in ways to reduce honour scores. Wonder if I should publish a top tips guide for new players on moves to avoid if they are worried about the loss on honour such as:

- Do not call religious leaders a "Senile Old Goat", drive them into exile, or impale them etc

- Reply to a Mutiney by mass slaughter of offending units

- Why its a bad move to be nasty to Agema NPC and Diets even if they are asking for it.

However, I think it should be said that some of the most effective leaders in our period such as Peter the Great of Russia were not always that popular.

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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Deacon on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:29 pm

>>However, I think it should be said that some of the most effective leaders in our period such as Peter the Great of Russia were not always that popular. <<

I think this is a key point. Don't let your honour score stand in the way of taking your nation where you want it to go. You have to be aware of the number, but great visionaries aren't always appreciated by the stick-in-the-mud masses!

(I think mass slaughter of mutiny units sounds like a capital idea personally.)
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Re: What I like and what I don't

Post by Jason on Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:30 pm

It depends, do the Corsairs really want to smell of fish? And lets be honest, attacking a bunch of hardworking but poor fishermen won't do much for their honour...and when they get caught, will they really want their last meal, before being hung, to be triple helpings of haggis...maybe I need to invent the mars bar so I can deep fry it and then offer it as an alternative to haggis?

To be serious for a change Wink Stuart does make a good point at the end about Peter the Great. Effective doesn't mean popular and vice versa...which do you want to be I guess!

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