Nations "Out of the Box"

Hi everybody

I'd like to take the move from the interesting post of Jason "Managing the Manchu" to open a discussion concerning the "Not so known nations" or "I would really never believe a nation could be played that way" as we could call it.

In your experience, has there been any nation that has been played in a way that surprised you significantly (or a similar experience you lived yourself and wish to share)?

I can call to mind a beautifully played Mainz-Trier-Saar in game 3, about twenty years ago, that was leading (with England) the honour table and the european trade.

In the same game England was ruled by the jacobite, while William of orange was leading (with no great success as far as i can remember, the American Republic).

In those days Rowzy is offering an interesting view over south african empires and gameplay.

You experiences?

G3 like you say had some interesting ones in it. The potential of the Sweden-Triple Kingdom union of crowns was an odd one whilst I always liked the Americas Republic, always seemed quite a success (I only came into the game after it became a republic).

The rise of Prussia in G2 was another one. Its empire was quite impressive. I agree on the Rowzi in G10, a nice change and a bit of a surprise.

Jason wrote:G3 like you say had some interesting ones in it.  The potential of the Sweden-Triple Kingdom union of crowns was  an odd one whilst I always liked the Americas Republic, always seemed quite a success (I only came into the game after it became a republic).

The rise of Prussia in G2 was another one.  Its empire was quite impressive.  I agree on the Rowzi in G10, a nice change and a bit of a surprise.

I have no info on those, could you tell me please?

Jason Flower could give the full details as he played the position but Prussia in G2 became Kaiser of quite a united Germany. By luck (whilst sorting a massive IT failure) I actually found some of my old turns when I played Hanover in G2. Basically Prussia had taken (in various ways, not sure of how) Cleves, Ravensberg, Bavaria, Saxony, Silesia, Tyrol, Meckleburg, Salzburg, Austria, Pomerania, Wurtemburg, Milan, Northwest Tuscany, Trent and West Venice. There were holdings in Africa and I think India and possibly Australia. Prussia even had a reasonable navy (origins of the Forum jokes about the German yacht club).

Jason wrote:Jason Flower could give the full details as he played the position but Prussia in G2 became Kaiser of quite a united Germany.  By luck (whilst sorting a massive IT failure) I actually found some of my old turns when I played Hanover in G2.  Basically Prussia had taken (in various ways, not sure of how) Cleves, Ravensberg, Bavaria, Saxony, Silesia, Tyrol, Meckleburg, Salzburg, Austria, Pomerania, Wurtemburg, Milan, Northwest Tuscany, Trent and West Venice.  There were holdings in Africa and I think India and possibly Australia.  Prussia even had a reasonable navy (origins of the Forum jokes about the German yacht club).

I've never seen a player win a territory from another. When i entered G3 a huge war against ottomans was just ended (HRE, North Italy against turks in a kind of holy league). Result Tuscany gained a sort of control over Bosnia, Austria won back the Banate, Savoy was in some kind of possess of Cipro and the Papal states was occupying Durazzo.

I was (and i'm) persuaded that in tGoK was impossible to occupy a foreign nation, especially a playing position. Richard wouldn't allow it to happened. Instead You are telling me it can and has happened?

I can't believe it. Please share more details, can it really happened? i mean they become part of your nations with recruits and so on?

I'm astonished

I've just sent Other Jason a message asking if he can fill in the details I came in to the game very late by which time he dominated Germany. I have a feeling an Ottoman invasion had been involved but I could be imaging that

If I remember rightly he also along with the Ottomans put Ferenc Rakozi on the Hungarian Throne, which I ended up playing with my Hungarian Paddle Boat fleet. He was at the end fighting the French

Speaking as player of the friendly, overworked, & under appreciated (in Ottoman Empire) Rumelian Civil Servents who some how got convinced do do most of the fighting while Jason picked up the spoils in Germany I can provide a brief outline of how Prussia replaced Austria as the major power in the HRE (150 years early).

1) New Austrians Govt attacks Prussia and indeed captures Berlin by coup-de-Main.  Sadly Austrians have not waited long enough to even find out that Prussia is a fully paid up member of the Warsaw Pact Alliance which includes Poland, Russia & Sweden as well as Prussia.  Austrians also invade Poland but with 100,000 Cossacks heading West to link up with wall to wall Winged Hussars etc its looking horrible for Austria. (Ottomans feeling really )

- Sadly at that point Austrian Govt changes and more reasonable Govt comes to power.  It cedes Northern Silesia to Prussia & Poland says sorry for sacking your capital etc and peace restored.......Its said in paper that "Mad Emperor" has converted to Islam and gone into exile.

2) Yet another highly aggressive and threatening Austrian Govt starts making threats against both Prussia (demands Silesia back) plus it starts making treats against Rumelia which at some stage had sort of allied with Prussia.  Think a lot of this may have been attempts to boast inherited low honour score.

- Austrian troops march into Sarajavo (old maps?) and small Rumelian Garrison vanish - desert to hills? Slaughtered?.  Prussia declare war over something while Leyerbey just attacks to avenge slaughtered Ghazi.  Technically two seperate wars and Prussia takes rest of Silesia this time helped by majority of Austrians having to turn round and head south as Rumelian forces are trying to burn Austria down to the bedrock.

3) At some stage Saxony attacks Prussia without seeming to be aware that Prussia has grown and the Emperor in no position to help. Saxony annexed to Prussia.  

- After defeat of Hapsburgs Grand Vizier declares Hungary-Bohemia & Transylvania free countries (but Vassels of Ottoman Empire) and reclaims Sava-Drava line for new Rumelian Ottoman border.  Prussia has gained Silesia & Saxony while Hapsburgs have lost Imperial title.  

4) Imperial Title goes to Rainer of Bavaria who has gained Wurtenburg and is now leading Catholic Power in HRE......all set for 30 year War? Actually No as Prussia & Bavaria were both skilled diplomats who want to build a Reich able to hold its own against French, Russians and even Ottomans.  Eventually Rainer has to drop out of game but role plays characters retirement and unification of Prussia & Bavaria as final service to the state.....with Bavarian & Prussian Diets agreeing to unity in face of Ottoman Threat ! (wounded, hurt,  I had not done a thing to Bavaria).  Prussia gains the Imperial title.........Perhaps helped by:

5) In final burst of Hapsburg aggression.......New Austrian Govt invades Hungary to reclaim lost lands.  Grand Vizier who lavished love and care on Hungarian Constition has been murdered by Jannissary Corp or Venice and his sons have been involved in blood feuds following assassination.  But they are not going to allow their dear dead dads settlement to be turn up.

- X2 Austrian Armies cut to bits, Vienna falls and adopted daughter of Iskander (daughter of now dec'd Emperor see 1 above) Crowned Arch Duchess of Austria while Rumelia annex's Carnolia etc.  Prussia buys Tyrol from Ottomans to keep Bavarians happy with new settlement in Germany.

6) New Archduchess of Austria "marries" the HRE bother and she bring's the  Archduchy of Austria and Duchy of Milan with her as dowry.  A long story but baically Rumelia needed to avoid problems in West while being stabbed in back by Janissary Corp.  Sadly despite being brought up a Unitarian in Rumelia and the determined effort to wipe out the Roman Catholic Church in Austria one Roman Catholic Convent survived and Maria Theresia fled to it after coverting to the Roman Catholic faith.

I know some Prussians are ugly but he was a soldier and a horse soldier with many kills what more could a girl want???? I wanted to drag her out by the heir and burn said convent to ground but Jason just ignored problem of estranged sister in law and got on with running her  lands.

7) Last years of G2 had Jason in firm control of Eastern Half of Holy Roman Empire and trying to win support of Western Part of HRE by kindness, Imperial largese etc,etc.  Think he did OK with Hanover (run by other Jason for a while) but hit brick wall with L-C and Agema NPC's.

Finally decided that only answer was Blood & Iron and unleshed the full might of the Prussian-Imperial Army to creat the 2nd Reich (approx 130 years early).  When French joined in on side of Princes it resulted in the most bloody and diease ridden battles seen in Glori du Roi.

When game folded Imperial forces had been defeated in North by Munster but at huge cost had wiped out the French Army in Baden. But oddly Baden garrison still holding out in Citidel.

As per usual Prussia had totally beaten the French at international diplomacy with England and various Powers on its side V the French but you could not say 100% that Prussia would have completed its mission to unit Germany.  What would have been really interesting would have been Hanover.....ruled for his father the King of England by his black sheep son its armed forces were a strange mixture of Kings German Legion Types & the Electors Jannissary Guard (purchased from ACME the Athens Corporation of Manufacturers and Exporters). However it was a most impressive turn around from the position Prussia was in when the Austrians captured Berlin and the Prussian Treasury.

Showing what can be done with careful diplomacy, weddings & the long term cultivation of allies.  Plus carefully selected and limited military campaigns waged over a long period of time and at the right time.

Thanks Stuart,

I played that position for almost 20 years so I suppose there was scope for long term planning, I received a lot of help on the way from a lot of other players. Also had a lot of luck with choice of friends & allies.

Started game with an income of 80,000 pounds & an emergency loan from the Bank, so it was an up hill struggle from the start.

Can only encourage players to be diplomatically active & make friends with as many fellow players as possible.

Yes Prussia had a Navy & it did actually win a couple of sea battles, admitted one of them was by sending marines armed with Grenades into a harbour filled with the enemies fleet, but it was still a naval victory, technically. The Prussia yacht club had its moments of glory.


One interesting position in G2 was Baden, ruled by Mad Matt of Baden, character was "interesting" with an amazing desire to add to his butterfly collection, which made for some interesting write ups in the paper & the gift of a number of glass houses form the Prussian government.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Speaking as player of the friendly, overworked, & under appreciated (in Ottoman Empire) Rumelian Civil Servents who some how got convinced do do most of the fighting while Jason picked up the spoils in Germany I can provide a brief outline of how Prussia replaced Austria as the major power in the HRE (150 years early).

1) New Austrians Govt attacks Prussia and indeed captures Berlin by coup-de-Main.  Sadly Austrians have not waited long enough to even find out that Prussia is a fully paid up member of the Warsaw Pact Alliance which includes Poland, Russia & Sweden as well as Prussia.  Austrians also invade Poland but with 100,000 Cossacks heading West to link up with wall to wall Winged Hussars etc its looking horrible for Austria. (Ottomans feeling really )

- Sadly at that point Austrian Govt changes and more reasonable Govt comes to power.  It cedes Northern Silesia to Prussia & Poland says sorry for sacking your capital etc and peace restored.......Its said in paper that "Mad Emperor" has converted to Islam and gone into exile.

2) Yet another highly aggressive and threatening Austrian Govt starts making threats against both Prussia (demands Silesia back) plus it starts making treats against Rumelia which at some stage had sort of allied with Prussia.  Think a lot of this may have been attempts to boast inherited low honour score.

- Austrian troops march into Sarajavo (old maps?) and small Rumelian Garrison vanish - desert to hills? Slaughtered?.  Prussia declare war over something while Leyerbey just attacks to avenge slaughtered Ghazi.  Technically two seperate wars and Prussia takes rest of Silesia this time helped by majority of Austrians having to turn round and head south as Rumelian forces are trying to burn Austria down to the bedrock.

3) At some stage Saxony attacks Prussia without seeming to be aware that Prussia has grown and the Emperor in no position to help. Saxony annexed to Prussia.  

- After defeat of Hapsburgs Grand Vizier declares Hungary-Bohemia & Transylvania free countries (but Vassels of Ottoman Empire) and reclaims Sava-Drava line for new Rumelian Ottoman border.  Prussia has gained Silesia & Saxony while Hapsburgs have lost Imperial title.  

4) Imperial Title goes to Rainer of Bavaria who has gained Wurtenburg and is now leading Catholic Power in HRE......all set for 30 year War? Actually No as Prussia & Bavaria were both skilled diplomats who want to build a Reich able to hold its own against French, Russians and even Ottomans.  Eventually Rainer has to drop out of game but role plays characters retirement and unification of Prussia & Bavaria as final service to the state.....with Bavarian & Prussian Diets agreeing to unity in face of Ottoman Threat ! (wounded, hurt,  I had not done a thing to Bavaria).  Prussia gains the Imperial title.........Perhaps helped by:

5) In final burst of Hapsburg aggression.......New Austrian Govt invades Hungary to reclaim lost lands.  Grand Vizier who lavished love and care on Hungarian Constition has been murdered by Jannissary Corp or Venice and his sons have been involved in blood feuds following assassination.  But they are not going to allow their dear dead dads settlement to be turn up.

- X2 Austrian Armies cut to bits, Vienna falls and adopted daughter of Iskander (daughter of now dec'd Emperor see 1 above) Crowned Arch Duchess of Austria while Rumelia annex's Carnolia etc.  Prussia buys Tyrol from Ottomans to keep Bavarians happy with new settlement in Germany.

6) New Archduchess of Austria "marries" the HRE bother and she bring's the  Archduchy of Austria and Duchy of Milan with her as dowry.  A long story but baically Rumelia needed to avoid problems in West while being stabbed in back by Janissary Corp.  Sadly despite being brought up a Unitarian in Rumelia and the determined effort to wipe out the Roman Catholic Church in Austria one Roman Catholic Convent survived and Maria Theresia fled to it after coverting to the Roman Catholic faith.

I know some Prussians are ugly but he was a soldier and a horse soldier with many kills what more could a girl want???? I wanted to drag her out by the heir and burn said convent to ground but Jason just ignored problem of estranged sister in law and got on with running her  lands.

7) Last years of G2 had Jason in firm control of Eastern Half of Holy Roman Empire and trying to win support of Western Part of HRE by kindness, Imperial largese etc,etc.  Think he did OK with Hanover (run by other Jason for a while) but hit brick wall with L-C and Agema NPC's.

Finally decided that only answer was Blood & Iron and unleshed the full might of the Prussian-Imperial Army to creat the 2nd Reich (approx 130 years early).  When French joined in on side of Princes it resulted in the most bloody and diease ridden battles seen in Glori du Roi.

When game folded Imperial forces had been defeated in North by Munster but at huge cost had wiped out the French Army in Baden. But oddly Baden garrison still holding out in Citidel.

As per usual Prussia had totally beaten the French at international diplomacy with England and various Powers on its side V the French but you could not say 100% that Prussia would have completed its mission to unit Germany.  What would have been really interesting would have been Hanover.....ruled for his father the King of England by his black sheep son its armed forces were a strange mixture of Kings German Legion Types & the Electors Jannissary Guard (purchased from ACME the Athens Corporation of Manufacturers and Exporters). However it was a most impressive turn around from the position Prussia was in when the Austrians captured Berlin and the Prussian Treasury.

Showing what can be done with careful diplomacy, weddings & the long term cultivation of allies.  Plus carefully selected and limited military campaigns waged over a long period of time and at the right time.

Holy shit

J Flower wrote:Thanks Stuart,

I played that position for almost 20 years so I suppose there was scope for long term planning, I received a lot of help on the way from a lot of other players. Also had a lot of luck with choice of friends & allies.

Started game with an income of 80,000 pounds & an emergency loan from the Bank, so it was an up hill struggle from the start.

Can only encourage players to be diplomatically active & make friends with as many fellow players as possible.

Yes Prussia had a Navy & it did actually  win a couple of sea battles, admitted one of them was by sending marines armed with Grenades into a harbour filled with the enemies fleet, but it was still a naval victory, technically. The Prussia yacht club had its moments of glory.


One interesting position in G2  was Baden, ruled by Mad Matt of Baden, character was "interesting" with an amazing desire to add to his butterfly collection, which made for some interesting write ups in the paper & the gift of a number of glass houses form the Prussian government.

ok

i must be honest. Jason is THE MAN, in my opinion, an amazing mind.

BUT

you, my friend, have just earned my most deep respect and admiration!

I was totally convinced that Richard would NEVER allow a game to go this way. I was sure that once a player was so able (and the other one was so unable) to take control over a country wich is also a playing position, Agema would have taken action (revolt, the rise of opponent NPC, whatever) to set the playing position free again. It must be very clear therefore that this does not respond to truth. It must also be very clear that what you've been able to achieve in all this long campaign sets you as one of (or the one) the best player of any strategic game i've ever met.

I need time to digest all that and to comply with the fact that maybe (if all other players are at your level or near) in game 9 i have opponents way too god for my skills.

I'm quite impressed and worried now.

I was the British Crown in the later years of Game 2... Berlin and London were closely linked and the Royal Navy was turned loose on the French in support of the war. The full impact was being felt as we were taking large numbers of French merchant marine.

I hate I missed the other portion of the show, but Prussia (Jason) was a friend to the British when we needed and we certainly were not going to abandon him when he was at war. Plus... We got to shoot at the Frenchies and that can't be all bad!

The economies in Game 2 were massive. My income toward the end of the game was getting close to 300 million pounds per year. The amount of money we were able to pump into our allies efforts was massive!

All this, for me, is one of the great bits of the game. You can take a nation and lead it in really unexpected directions.

Jason wrote:All this, for me, is one of the great bits of the game.  You can take a nation and lead it in really unexpected directions.

Definitely

but as far as i can understand there is also a huge component of correct interaction between cooperative players.

Nexus06 wrote:

Jason wrote:All this, for me, is one of the great bits of the game.  You can take a nation and lead it in really unexpected directions.

Definitely

but as far as I can understand there is also a huge component of correct interaction between cooperative players.

It was all about interaction with the other players, there are a lot of if's & maybes in the game I was lucky enough that the consolation of players over the years enabled me to achieve so much, Help & support from players like Stuart Bailey , Revvaughan, & Stuart Garforth ( if he is still playing) made a big difference to the end result. Even when it came to conflicts with other players I tried to keep a friendly diplomatic interaction going, which helps long term , you never know if that player will drop & reappear as a potential ally in game.

Really enjoyed researching the Prussian history prior to Frederick the Great, (There is probably more material written in German rather than English on this period of Prussia's history) which I also tried to implement in game. Although I didn't raise the regiment of giants wonder if anyone ever has?

But being a Protestant Kaiser did bring it's difficulties, couldn't convince the Pope to crown my character, although this may have been due to threats about burning Rome to the ground made early in the game.

J Flower wrote:

Nexus06 wrote:

Jason wrote:All this, for me, is one of the great bits of the game.  You can take a nation and lead it in really unexpected directions.

Definitely

but as far as I can understand there is also a huge component of correct interaction between cooperative players.

It was all about interaction with the other players, there are a lot of if's & maybes in the game I was lucky enough that the consolation of players over the years enabled me to achieve so much, Help & support from players like Stuart Bailey , Revvaughan, & Stuart Garforth ( if he is still playing) made a big difference to the end result. Even when it came to conflicts with other players I tried to keep a friendly diplomatic interaction going, which helps long term , you never know if that player will drop & reappear as a potential ally in game.

Really enjoyed researching the Prussian history prior to Frederick the Great, (There is probably more material written in German rather than English on this period of Prussia's history) which I also tried to implement in game. Although I didn't raise the regiment of giants wonder if anyone ever has?

But being a Protestant Kaiser did bring it's difficulties, couldn't convince the Pope to crown my character, although this may have been due to threats about burning Rome to the ground made early in the game.

Seems all sound logical, and you've been excellent in managing all those aspects.

I wonder if a game, to allow such an amazing evolution, do need to be filled in all major and some minor positions, or it is enough to have a few allies in key positions?

From the prior posts it may seem that G2 was dominated by Jason sitting down in 1702 and working out a cunning plan to replace the Hapsburgs and turn the HRE into greater Prussia.

While no doubt a element of long term planning existed in Berlin a lot more was "organic" and developed naturally with opportunities being taken as they came up rather than being forced.

Thus while the ability to focus on a long term plan/objective and not getting distracted is vital it is also important to keep a degree of flexibility and willinness to grab a opportunity events have thrown up.

So if you are planning military conquest I think the would be expanding power needs to keep the following rules in mind:

1) Secure your back........for example if you are Russia planning to annex bits of the Baltic from Sweden make sure you have non aggression treaties in place with the Ottomans, Poland etc.

2) Its very, very hard to take out a whole position. And both players and NPC's do not like blatent aggression so I suggest you do these things in stages, always try to have valid reasons and try and seem reasonable.

- Thus in G2 Austria came badly unstuck by attacking Prussia & Hungary....considering them weak without really thinking about the reaction of other players. In some computer games picking on a weak position to build up own position prior to moving onto the next is a valid tactic but in Agema games unless you smooth your path first a likely reaction to a over aggressive player is to think "who is 2nd and 3rd on hit list?.......attack!"

- Interestingly one side effect of "Mad Hapsburgs" in G2 was that lots of people signed treaties it Ottomans. Which was in turn the end for Venice in Greece.

3) Richard can he horrible if you try and take over small positions or take over a whole position purely by Military means....in one game Russia and Poland co-operated to wipe out the Crimean Kharate, then had to put up with endless raids by homeless Tartars plus we have all faced NPC fanatics with seemingly unshakable morale, the Strength of 10 men, perfect Knowledge & no need to eat. But Agema also seems to have no problem at all with bits being removed esp by smaller positions from larger ones or Govts in exile.

- In G10 if Savoy attempted to take over Genoa or Venice I would expect bitter and fanatical resistence. But it managed to take over the Duchy of Milan without a shot fired. Of course pay back for this is that all future Govts of Spain will now get map of Italy showing Spanish Territory stolen by Savoy.

- While in other Games Jacobites & their rivals have swapped the Govt in London with the other going off to establish a Republic in the America's etc.

So if you are an Ottoman planning War or Austria or a Russian planning war on Sweden your aim should be "liberation for Hungary" or to reclaim some lost lands on the Baltic. Not to march on Stockholm or Vienna and burn it to the ground.

Remember that while Sweden, Spain, Austria, Venice and the Ottomans all lost major lands in our period only two European Kingdoms actually vanished in our period. Scotland which already had a shared King and was basically bribed into unity with England and the Polish Commonweath which neede the combined efforts of Austria, Russia & Prussia plus 4 seperate partitions.

So think less campaigns of Napoleonic Conquest.....think more about standing up for your dynastic or religious rights.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
From the prior posts it may seem that G2 was dominated by Jason sitting down in 1702 and working out a cunning plan to replace the Hapsburgs and turn the HRE into greater Prussia.

While no doubt a element of long term planning existed in Berlin a lot more was "organic" and developed naturally with opportunities being taken as they came up rather than being forced.  

Thus while the ability to focus on a long term plan/objective and not getting distracted is vital it is also important to keep a degree of flexibility and willinness to grab a opportunity events have thrown up.

So if you are planning military conquest I think the would be expanding power needs to keep the following rules in mind:

1) Secure your back........for example if you are Russia planning to annex bits of the Baltic from Sweden make sure you have non aggression treaties in place with the Ottomans, Poland etc.

2) Its very, very hard to take out a whole position.  And both players and NPC's do not like blatent aggression so I suggest you do these things in stages, always try to have valid reasons and try and seem reasonable.

- Thus in G2 Austria came badly unstuck by attacking Prussia & Hungary....considering them weak without really thinking about the reaction of other players.  In some computer games picking on a weak position to build up own position prior to moving onto the next is a valid tactic but in Agema games unless you smooth your path first a likely reaction to a over aggressive player is to think "who is 2nd and 3rd on hit list?.......attack!"

- Interestingly one side effect of "Mad Hapsburgs" in G2 was that lots of people signed treaties it Ottomans.  Which was in turn the end for Venice in Greece.

3) Richard can he horrible if you try and take over small positions or take over a whole position purely by Military means....in one game Russia and Poland co-operated to wipe out the Crimean Kharate,  then had to put up with endless raids by homeless Tartars plus we have all faced NPC fanatics with seemingly unshakable morale, the Strength of 10 men, perfect Knowledge & no need to eat.  But Agema also seems to have no problem at all with bits being removed esp by smaller positions from larger ones or Govts in exile.

- In G10 if Savoy attempted to take over Genoa or Venice I would expect bitter and fanatical resistence.  But it managed to take over the Duchy of Milan without a shot fired.  Of course pay back for this is that all future Govts of Spain will now get map of Italy showing Spanish Territory stolen by Savoy.

- While in other Games Jacobites & their rivals have swapped the Govt in London with the other going off to establish a Republic in the America's etc.

So if you are an Ottoman planning War or Austria or a Russian planning war on Sweden your aim should be "liberation for Hungary" or to reclaim some lost lands on the Baltic.  Not to march on Stockholm or Vienna and burn it to the ground.

Remember that while Sweden, Spain, Austria, Venice and the Ottomans all lost major lands in our period only two European Kingdoms actually vanished in our period.  Scotland which already had a shared King and was basically bribed into unity with England and the Polish Commonweath which neede the combined efforts of Austria, Russia & Prussia plus 4 seperate partitions.

So think less campaigns of Napoleonic Conquest.....think more about standing up for your dynastic or religious rights.    

That sounds to me like a real smart thinking and a sound strategy to achieve success in the game.

As far as i could understand, key points of success are:

1) sit, study & plan the development of your nation. Don't leave chaos and improvisation in control of everything.

2) Find good friends, be kind to them. Roleplay.

3) Keep your back secure

4) plan to gain little, plan to lose little. Don't be greedy.

Have i hit the point?

Ref post from Nexus 06 I would generally say "Yes" & what is more I understand that Jason Flower is looking a writing some guides aimed at the carefull "diplomatic" player who wants to getter understand the diplomatic set up circa 1700 & military options for positions. I can see demand for the "Flower Diplomatic Guide" & "Flowers Armies of the World" but the "Flowers Guide to setting up Yacht Squadrons" who is going to trust this?

However, I would stress that Jason's careful diplomatic style of play taking a long time to achieve objectives in small stages and using carefull study of the social beliefs of the position you are running to set policy & in game of objectives is only one way of playing and some players delight in trying to defy convention and enjoy going down the wrong trouser leg of time history for the hell of it.

While I have seen some out shocking claims (like miracle babies & dodgy treaties in Spain) work and work well. I give my award for most stand out positions to the English Govts who have run England as a Catholic/Jacobite Monarchy. This really has to be the equal of playing the game at its hardest setting and needs a hard core role player who is happy to accept the mutiney, revolts and desertions plus a poor honour score in order to explore.

This style of play is not for everyone but probably should be attempted "once".

Stuart Bailey wrote:
but the "Flowers Guide to setting up Yacht Squadrons" who is going to trust this?

Could be useful as a "how not to" guide?

Look, it was just the one navy that sank, I did manage to keep a few gunboats afloat for almost a whole game year.

One piece of free advise is do not upgrade ships cannon without stable ship design breakthrough. Or maybe attempt to give entire navy swimming lessons.

How about the Ducky of Milan? It should be, even in that age, the most populated, industrious and rich territory of italy.

Has anyone ever tried to run it, gain independence and try to take over northern italy?

I might be messing up my history but isn't Milan part of the Spanish Empire at this stage?

It is. But it gets sort of put into play immediately with the spanish succession. Italian unification would be a very cool idea, but quite tough.

Naples and Milan belong to Spain, who isn't likely to let them go easily. Then you'd have to deal with the Papal states and a pope who is pretty fond of his temporal power.

I've always thought Naples would be an interesting one to play. Ok, yes, part of the Spanish Empire but large enough and with enough resources (I think) to support itself, could even undertake operations into North Africa.

Maybe as a governor with quite a bit freedom of movement as it were?

Must admit though, increasingly feel myself drawn to micro-positions...playing the Free City of Hamburg has a lot of appeal