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Help, please. If possible?

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Rozwi_Game10
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Help, please. If possible?

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:08 am

I am aware that this is a 'how long is a piece of string' question, but I really could do with some tips on the subject of improving the financial returns and Economic Health of Rozwi.

Due to the problems of:
A) being so far, geographically removed from most markets and not having access to deep sea shipping
B) suffering from Famine and the subsequent deaths
C) operating a number of military units/armies that cost a large portion of the amount of the current December income
D) having no, improved and formalised trade practices in place to increase returns

Rozwi's EH is at 4, and although we can pay the upcoming financial upkeep for 1702-1703, we won't be able to maintain the status quo of the position from April 1703+ unless things change for the better.

You're, probably, going to tell me to deactivate the military, but I can't do that at present and the military is, really the be-all-and-end-all of my Rozwi. Without it and it's (hopeful) success Rozwi would be boring to play.

What I'm after, is seeing if there's any advice on the matter of improving my lot economically.

I'm going to have to ask my in-game advisors for help, but we all know that usually is a mixed bag of good and neutral advice. And sort out some better trading deals with my closest neighbours.

Possibly there's nothing that can be said to aid me, as I obviously can't give the details of Rozwi's position away to my fellow players. I will say that I am generally clue-less when it comes to the economy in the games I play of LGDR/TGOK, so I will need to figure something out and then play through it.

I know there's some advice already posted on the forum, so I'll go back and read them through.

Cheers,
Roy
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Jason
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Jason on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:22 am

Must admit it's something I struggle with quite often. I know some have said tax cuts can help boost the economy and lead to greater income as a result-others will be able to give you more info and how successful it is

I must admit I'm not fully aware of your trade and industry setup, even in-game, but is there anything you have/produce that might interest other players in game, enough to make them come to you to trade/buy? Slaves for example? Think you've said before there aren't any appropriate resources to exploit, even with foreign assistance (e.g. mining)

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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Nexus06 on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:49 am

I mate, Rowzi is not the best position i know but, as long as i'm not playing G10, i think there would be no spoiler alert issue Smile

Anyway.

You've got Gold Mining and polycromy pottery if i'm not wrong, cattle, surviving agriculture, and that is quite all.

I have no idea if EH is a relative or absolute element, but should indicate the performace of your economy (and tax/trade performance) regardless of the level of development.
I would then go for basic issue:

1. how is structured your society? You have warrios and slaves (or farmers) but is the merchant class existing? For example in my russia i have no merchant class, thus i have to co-opt foreign merchants (baskirian, nogay, armenan) and accept the western traders (who sells goods far too expensive for my population).
2.If you are a warrior society probably economy is not the point, as pillage and tributes should constitute a good part of your income (farmers pay taxes, warriors are costs).
3. If you want to expand your nation's hh consider improving internal comunication, but first there should be food surplus. Maybe use army to collect food from hunting and fishing (outside your kingdom) until a surplus is obtained. The surplus allow the creation of a merchant class and an artisan class who could live out of their job, then you can implement methods.
4. mine bullions, and sell them on the coast to persian, chinese and portuguese.
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Rozwi_Game10
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:20 pm

Thanks Jason and Luca. You've both pretty much hit the nail upon the head and (though I'm very conscious of giving out Rozwi's woeful details) what you've both described is either the implemented strategy, or that which is being discussed at present (Jason, seemingly you're out of the loop! Very Happy).

No, one thing that I must remember is that Rozwi as a nation is less than 20 years old in the game (as far as I know the land was conquered during the very late 1680s, if I remember correctly) and so I really must realise that I'll have to grow the merchant class as Nexus has said.

Thanks again, reading your advice has given me a couple of ideas that I'll put forward to my new Trade Minister.

- Taxes. I was considering lowering the tax on commoners, since they're the people who have suffered most during the famine and presumably can't afford to buy the available food that has risen in price. I'll give it a go and see what happens ... if it fails I'll just have to invade somewhere!
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Deacon on Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:11 pm


My advice is "screw the economy, conquer and kill!"

Ok, that's probably overstating it, but for many smaller nations, the path to greatness is to focus on what you can seize, not improving the economy immediately.

If your military is that large, you may be starving the economy of investment to grow. That's fine, just cope with it for now.

My only warning is that any nation that ends up with negative recruits for whatever reason should act to fix that. It is a real drag on the economy!

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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Stuart Bailey on Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:18 pm

Hi Roy,

Ref Economic thoughts:

If I was running a African Tribe the five main Investment area's would be:

- Cattle, Fishing, Gold (from rivers not deep mines), Ivory and Slaves........and perhaps later look at growing tobacco or Cotton.

In order to improve the cattle think you need to try a Royal Stud farm and Vets (or Cattle Witchdoctors). Plus pinching prize beasts from rivals.

Ref the Ivory I would ask European Merchants like the Dutch Merchants at the Cape for some rifled Muskets for your hunters.

Ref raiding rivals tribes think you can either sale captives to raise funds or match your investments with batches of 1000 slaves which doubles your return. Other option is to re-settle them on your land but paying much higher rates of tax than normal subjects.

One option you may like to look at is appoint a NPC merchant slaver (probably a Arab or a European) to act as your factor and see if he can get better prices by direct sales. If you can find Rich Players or NPC positions in need of recruits they will often pay really premium rates for trained fighting men they can use as Military recruits.

At one stage Rumelian Slavers were flogging Janissaries for 40 a head & Mamluke Ghulams for 50. Oddly option of honourable Military Slavery with may make it easier for you to take whole units captive.
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:53 am

Thanks everyone.

I have to be honest and admit that what you've all said is pretty much what is either in-place, or has been suggested to me in game by the player-nations I'm already in contact with (as well as a few other ideas). But it is reassuring to read what you've said and spot the similarities - so, hopefully, I'm doing something right?

I think I'm being too impatient (though having a great, big military draining the pot of gold isn't helping) and need to wait a year or two more before I see any returns from what's been put in place, or will be. A couple of military campaigns to claim some rewards, then hopefully I can reduce the active units by half and start to slowly build up the treasury balance.

Cheers Smile
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Jason on Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:43 pm

I think there are (perhaps surprisingly) few options when it comes to improving the economy. It's new industries, improving technologies associated with those industries, breeding better farm animals or playing around with taxes. Having said that, new industries and improving what you have does give you a lot of options. Now if you have gold on your land and a European power is willing to help you get it out (you know, a nice friendly European power who have no colonies anywhere near you and so clearly aren't trying to take advantage of you... Wink ) in return for a profit split arrangement...

In regards taxes, I hope others will jump in and either agree with me or correct me, you might be better off looking at reducing taxes on your nobles instead of commoners. This seems a bit counter-intuitive (at least to me) but my understanding is the nobles get their wealth through the work of the commoners...so if the nobles need to pay you less, they need to demand less from the commoners working their land, etc, so everyone has more money to spend elsewhere...leading to greater gains. I realise the Rozwi aren't a cash economy like Europe Smile but I assume in terms of game dynamics (assuming my initial reasoning is correct) the benefit is the same.
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:03 pm

Yes, I had read that idea about 'the nobles and not the commoners' elsewhere on this forum. I'm going to crunch the numbers this weekend and have a good old think about it all - plus reread all the rules books and supplements for hints. I'm all for trying things in the game, so will reduce somebody's tax level and then see what happens over the long term.

1701 income returns for Rozwi are a 60/40 split, with tax providing just that little bit extra. If our EH had been 5, then I reckon it would have been a 50/50 split. And EH 6, seeing a 40/60 split favouring trade income. Maybe its best to not mess around with tax and work on other methods of raising the EH score - easier said than done, though!

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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by J Flower on Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:59 am

Reducing taxation, should help boost your honour a bit, a benevolent ruler who doesn't want the last penny for himself is always popular across the board.
Should also increase EH, as people have more money to spend on other goods, so you may get an increase in trade income at least in your "home" trade region, you may also get more tax as EH rises, probably not as high as the % you lower taxes as there is no straight line connection but as the wealth of you people increase, the figures at the top of your income sheet should help you see what effect you have had.

Raising taxes on Nobility & Clergy just means they rum the noses of the poor even more into the dirt & demand higher rents & tithes to meet their tax commitments, so basically the Commoners get hammered.

Of course you could send out a prospecting part to the sea-shore to collect lots of shiny shells to act as the new currency........
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:06 am

I think I read that the historic currency among the natives in my part of the game world was bird feathers, at that time. Can't remember where I read it, though.

I'm happy to pay people in feathers should they prefer? Either that, or you'll have to be happy with the Arabic coins the Rozwi treasury uses/


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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by J Flower on Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:13 am

Maybe Ostrich feathers can be used as a currency with Europeans, they were after all a rare commodity in Europe.

How about we offer you 10 Chicken feathers for one Ostrich, sounds like a fair deal to me.
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:21 am

When I think on it, I think it was tax that was paid in specific bird feathers - which were then used in civic ceremonies as uniforms, or the like. But we're talking small 'kingdoms' of a number of villages, not something like the Zimbabwe nations.

Also, any leopard skin taken had to be presented to the King - as only royalty could don such furs.
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Jason
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Jason on Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:35 am

J Flower wrote:Maybe Ostrich feathers can be used as a currency with Europeans, they were after all a rare commodity in Europe.

How about we offer you 10 Chicken feathers for one Ostrich, sounds like a fair deal to me.

I know it's after our period but in the early-middle 19th Century, there was a massive warehouse on the riverfront in London (7 stories high), filled just with Ostrich feathers...now that's a lot of ostriches...maybe Roy should invest in Ostrich farms...and on the plus side they're a good source of meat in the event of famine Wink

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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by J Flower on Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:45 am

Brilliant idea,

You get to kill two birds with one stone- Sorry couldn't resist

(Of course this in game will leave you open to charges of witch craft, as you obviously need at least two stones)

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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:13 am

Rozwi_Game10 wrote:I think I read that the historic currency among the natives in my part of the game world was bird feathers, at that time. Can't remember where I read it, though.

I'm happy to pay people in feathers should they prefer? Either that, or you'll have to be happy with the Arabic coins the Rozwi treasury uses/


Cowry shells from the Indian Ocean were a traditional form of "money" in Africa. While many tribes seem to have counted wealth in Cattle......indeed even in my life time in parts of Kenya if you wanted to get married you had to pay a bride price in cattle. But apart from the odd steer butched for ships rations Cattle is not a good medium of exchange for sea going merchants.

Think most African trade was in the form of bartering goods and services for other goods rather than "cash" ie on the West African Coast Gold, Slaves & Ivory was exchanged for European Cloth and metal goods which were then traded inland.

As well as cooking pots, muskets etc the imported Metal was often in the form of metal sheets which could be worked by travelling African smiths. The Benin Bronzes (actually made from Brass) now in the British Museum are a good but very high end example of European brass imported into Africa to be worked by local craftsmen. And the figures could be stunning.....in 1548 one German merchant house agreed to supply via Portugal 432 tons of brass manillas (Manillas are large brass bracelets of a standard type suitable for being worked into other things like the decorative plaques for the walls of the Oba's Palace).

Since African smiths travelled and had to buy food etc basic metal bars & even bits of metal by weight which could be turned into finished goods at a later stage seem to have become a form of "money" in many parts of Africa........in many ways like Viking arm rings and "hack" silver or the Iron bars of Sparta.

From viewing metal as a store of value you are not that far from coins which are basically a metal disc and a stamp saying they contain X amount of metal (or it did before someone clipped it, de-based it or did one of the many crimes against coins).

Think option's for Rozwi if it wants to spread the word about the majesty and might of its great Chief is:

1) Start minting its own coins.......if you can find a supply of metal and a mint.

2) Continue to use other peoples coins......but perhaps with a new handsome image overstamped?

The Arab dinar was a popular medium of exchange in the middle east, east African coast and India trade. English money esp Gold Guineas made from African gold is also good with most people. But for the American Express or Visa of 1700 what you want are $......no not US Greenbacks but the Spanish "Peso de Ocho Reales" sometimes known as - pieces of eight. Accepted in all good bars and brothels from Paris to Manila.

Just do not allow the Dutch to set the exchange rates!
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:09 pm

J Flower wrote:(Of course this in game will leave you open to charges of witch craft, as you obviously need at least two stones)

Yes, well, one of the 'rackets' that Shaka accused his Sangoma's of was labelling people as witches, so that the accused would be executed (stakes up the anus and left to die in the wilderness) and the Muti-men could benefit from the dead's estate.

There's an account of one Zulu farmer refusing to buy a charm to help his cattle or crop, I forget which. Anyway, this farmer had worked out a beneficial practice along the lines of what Europeans employed but which was unknown to the Zulu's at that time. So come harvest, or whatever, the farmer benefits from a bumper pay-day and the Sangoma's aren't happy as this farmer is proving that you can get results without buying the sacred relics and charms from them. So its obviously time for a Smelling Out of witches during the next big meet of Shaka's court. All the peoples are made to line up in the central space of Shaka's kraal and the Sangoma's go bouncing up and down, hissing, spitting, dancing and prattling on as they did down the lines of stood-to-attention civilians. All in the time honoured method of sniffing out Witches. And low and behold, the farmer who didn't previously buy a lucky charm was named a witch! Wouldn't you have just known it. Obviously he'd been using witch craft, otherwise how else can you explain his good results. His explanations would have fallen on deaf ears, as the farming methods he'd used were previously unknown to the Zulu, so he'd obviously been told them by dark forces. Anyway, out come the executioners with their pointy sticks ... a few strategical insertions later and the poor farmer is dead, and the sale of lucky charms to aid farming is back to being as profitable as in the past, if not more so!

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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:28 pm


On subject of witchcraft in G10 could Portocarrero & his Warlock alliances be under the protection of the "Association of Geomancers and Mages Arcana" or AGEMA for short.Suspect Suspect


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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by J Flower on Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:52 pm

Nah....."AGEMA" is short for " Association of Geographically Embarrassed Maritime Amateurs " which some times is referred to as the Russian Navy in G7.

Then again maybe witch craft would have been a better way of Navigation, certainly those bits of paper supplied by the dodgy goat dealer didn't work


Last edited by J Flower on Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by revvaughan on Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:27 am

I might have quite a bit of interest in developing some gold mines if there is reciprocal interest from the Changamire? What other goods and services does the fair land have to offer?

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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by J Flower on Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:11 pm

If you want GOATS then the Dutch are willing to set up a breeding farm in the Cape Colony, we can even work out a barter system, of for example 1 goat for a wheelbarrow full of that shiny yellow metal stuff that makes really useless spears, let me know in game if you are interested in setting up this kind of trade agreement.

Of course you may want to barter for cattle, so we are willing to make a similar offer, but may need to exchange wheelbarrows for small wagons but the principle would remain the same.

letters C.M.O.T Hoof Harted at the Dutch ministry for Exploitation & Robbing of native Tribes of Africa; please

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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:36 pm

J Flower wrote:If you want GOATS then the Dutch are willing to set up a breeding farm in the Cape Colony, we can even work out a barter system, of for example 1 goat for a wheelbarrow full of that shiny yellow metal stuff that makes really useless spears, let me know in game if you are interested in setting up this kind of trade agreement.

Of course you may want to barter for cattle, so we are willing to make a similar offer, but may need to exchange wheelbarrows for small wagons but the principle would remain the same.

letters C.M.O.T Hoof Harted at the Dutch ministry for Exploitation & Robbing of native Tribes of Africa; please


And if they are feeling really kind the Dutch will also barter for shinny stones from Southern Africa called DIAMONDS.

A small basket full should pay for a goat or even a pick axe or a spade to help you find more shiny metal stuff.

Want a rifle for hunting?......stand rifle upright and pile up Ivory Tusks, Slaves or Furs laid flat up to the height of the Rifle and you have a DEAL.

Finally if Farmers want credit the Dutch VOIC will offer a Spade, a plough, and tobacco seed.........in exchange for Farmers daughter working for the VOIC and for 70% of crop to VOIC 30% to Farmer. If crop target not achieved the VOIC keeps the girl.

Offering terms of trade this generous no wonder VOIC shares are being given away to Churches rather than being sold to shareholders. Will the company even be able to keep going esp if Insurance Rates keep being pushed up by the actions of those naughty French Corsairs.

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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by J Flower on Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:23 pm


Bugger, you have seen through my cunning Dutch plan for world trade domination. I guess it is my own fault for making it public knowledge here on the forum. Suspect everyone will now look to employ the same methods, just please don't let Roy know I think it may be him who is playing one of the African tribes.

Maybe if the VOIC gets lucky those dashing Corsair types, with their "Brill cream hair, dashing moustaches,& tight trousers will be too busy chasing down renegade Jacobite dissenters in the name of King Louis. So that VOIC traders ( protected by the might of the Scottish navy, powered by Whiskey & deep fried Haggis) can get on with Exploitation Exploration of new business opportunities, Maybe bringing Tea to China is an option no one has looked into yet.

Player Note:- Generally in game happy with the way things are going have managed to play for 7 turns now & still have not lost a ship ( record for me) if this carries on I maybe prepared to issue orders to allow them to sail out of harbour, but of course, only if the sun is shining, & favourable winds, all crew having completed the mandatory swimming test & wearing life jackets.
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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:26 pm

If anyone wants to talk shop then please send a letter to His Highness, Changamire Dombo II of the Karange Rozwi Empire.

If the Ancestors' shade's smile favourably on your request for audience, then permission to kraal at Inhambane will be granted ... until it isn't.

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Re: Help, please. If possible?

Post by J Flower on Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:48 pm

Roy please do not read my Post No 23, it concerns my secret way of extracting lots money from your position, You may have to build new Kraals to keep all the goats that are going ot be coming your way.

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