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Regimentals organization

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Nexus06
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Regimentals organization

Post by Nexus06 on Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:44 am

Hi everibody

18th century. Armies had regimental organization, but i'm unable to find resources concerning regimental structures. In tgok squad/batt/fab how many of them form a regiment ?

Thanks

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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Stuart Bailey on Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:50 pm

Nexus06 wrote:Hi everibody

18th century. Armies had regimental organization, but i'm unable to find resources concerning regimental structures. In tgok squad/batt/fab how many of them form a regiment ?

Thanks

In our period the size of Infantry regiments and indeed the size of the battalions which formed them varied hugely between various Armies and between peace and wartime organization, Cavalry Regiments were also totally different.

It was very rare for British Regiments to have more than one Battalion (plus their seperate depot company back at base which in theory handled recruiting, remounts sick and wounded soldiers and all the "back office" stuff). The exceptions were the Foot Guards, Goldstream Guards, Scots Guards & the Royal Scots who generally had two battalions.

The number of Companies in a British Battalions would vary between peace and war but the majority of British Battalions in wartime had 13 Companies with a nominal 60 men each (later reduced to 40) plus officers. To which would be added various add on like Musicians and Officers servents. Up to 1725 the British Govt were so tight fisted that while they would pay for drummers Colonial of the Royal Scots had to pay for his own Piper! Very roughly in the war time armies of William III, Marlborough, George II a British Battalion would have between 780 to 930 men. But by the end of a long campaign it could be a lot less!

In contrast French Regiments were mostly multi battalion. The crack Regiment des Gardes Francaises field no less than six battalions in 1691 and on average the French Army has just under twice as many battalions as regiments. So with exceptions lgike the Gardes Francaises and various single battalion regiments the average French Line Regiment would have two Battalions.

But while the average British Battalion stayed standard that of the average French Battalion fluctuated enormously. According to Marshal de Puysegurs treatise the "Art of War" the average French Battalion in 1678 had 52 Officers and 850 men with 1 Grenadier Company & 16 Ordinary Companies. But in 1701 the average French Battalion had 40 Officers, 650 men in 1 Grenadier Company & 12 Ordinary Companies. It should also be noted that in 1678 the French deployed in six ranks while in 1701 they were in a 4 rank deployment. Le Bonds later figures for the 1730's & 1740's show the same type of variation.

It should also be stressed that in peace time establishments were much smaller. In 1748 for instance the French Battalion was reduced to 12 companies of 40 men and one of 45 - 525 in all.

It should also be stressed that the French Army was infamous for taking the common practice of "widows" & "dead mens pays" to extremes and having less actual troops than the Government was paying for. A British 1706 estimate for French Battalion Strength was 624 officers and men with many having no more than 550. Compared to the official figure from De Puysegur of 690.

From 1695 the nominal Strength of a Hapsburg Regiment was 1087 men in 12 companies which for tactical purposes were divided into three battalions. In 1700 the total Strength was raised to 2300 made up of one grenadier company about 100 strong) and 16 Fusilier companies (about 150 men). But in 1711 Prince Eugene made more changes and the Hungarian Regiments were different again.

1740's Prussian Regiments tended to have 2 Battalion Regiments with fairly large Battalions at least on Paper.

Hope the above is some help but if you want to turn some of your battalions in Glori du Roi a regimental title I think its reasonable to use a 4 Battalion Regiment for Imperial and Imperial influenced units and 2 Battalion Regiments for French and French Influenced units. While Elite Guard Units should be larger.

For a good supply of Regiment names and nice pictures of uniforms etc suggest you see if Osprey Publishing do a book on the Army you are interested in. Many like the ones on the Prussian Army of Frederick the Great may be a bit out of period but even Regt named after the commanders can be re-used (Grandfather with same name).


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Jason
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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Jason on Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:45 pm

There are a couple of useful websites

This one gives details of how some armies of the War of Spanish Succession were organised http://www.spanishsuccession.nl/

I do like this one however http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Main_Page It is from later in the 18th Century but if you are ok with that, it is extremely useful.  For some nations it does give details of how regiments were organised earlier in the century and if you want to go as far as naming regiments, it's a good place to get them

There is a website that gives details of some of the armies of the Great Northern War http://www.wfgamers.org.uk/resources/C18/gnw.htm some armies it goes into great detail, others its more OoB

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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by J Flower on Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:20 am

Also it may cause some confusion that some armies took the Grenadier Battalions to form extra Battalions, these were often not as strong as the Ordinary battalions. But Generally as Stuart has pointed out 2-3 Battalions was the continental norm, with one of these Battalions possibly being a Depot Battalion & the others " Field" Battalions.

In a similar way to Infantry Cavalry is also organised into Regiments, there the building block is the Squadron sub divided into troops, Once again Regimental strength would vary from army to army, sometimes a Regiment may have been a single squadron in the case of smaller states, or sometimes as a Household unit) , but some nations actually went up to 10 Squadrons in a Regiment, especially among the lighter cavalry formations.Normally 3-6 sqns were a the rule,

To throw in some confusion Hussar Squadrons were in some Nations -Russia - for example were also organised into" Battalions."


Nexus06
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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Nexus06 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:43 pm

Thank you all for the exhaustive explanation. I think that 3/6 batt/squad per regiment could be a reasonable guess.

Unfortunately, osprey for the great northern war has gone out of production.
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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Ardagor on Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:42 pm

For the Great Northern war there are a few books.

Great Northern War by Lars-Eric Høglund in Swedish (3 books (paperback)) or English (2 books). The publishing company have closed so may be difficult to get.

and

Great Northern War Compendium I and II by Stephen L. Kling Jr. (THGC Publishing)

Nexus06
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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Nexus06 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:43 pm

Ardagor wrote:For the Great Northern war there are a few books.

Great Northern War by Lars-Eric Høglund in Swedish (3 books (paperback)) or English (2 books). The publishing company have closed so may be difficult to get.

and

Great Northern War Compendium I and II by Stephen L. Kling Jr. (THGC Publishing)

thanks Ardagor!
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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Ardagor on Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:07 pm

No problem

I contacted Acedia press 2,5 years ago (Swedish) and the author answered (Lars-Eric Høglund) saying that he was selling the books himself after the Publishing company going out of business and he could be contacted at.

Lars-Erik.hoglund@bredband.net

No idea if he has any left

I paid 1200 kr (swedish) for the 3 books (in swedish) which is about 130 Euro

Nexus06
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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Nexus06 on Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:09 pm

Il try the english version if existing

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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by J Flower on Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:02 pm

http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Main_Page

J Finch( the other Jason) found this one out & passed it onto me, a useful little page I hope it helps, go to the Navigation on the LH side & get your nation, it is admittedly SYW, but it may help give a bit of a general idea.

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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Stuart Bailey on Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:59 pm

If you are looking for something a bit more detailed than Osprey you may like to consider:

If you are looking for a comparison of different armies of the period - Arteus: Carolinian and European Battle Tactics 1700-1712 is interesting but since it was published in 1972 by Lidkoping not sure if its still in print and in which languages.

For a broad introduction to the whole of the Swedish Imperium - Roberts both his anthology, Sweden's Age of Greatness 1632-1718 &
The Swedish Imperial Experience 1560-1718

For the Economic situation in the Baltic - Jill List, The Struggle for Supremacy in the Baltic is fairly simple but very interesting. In particular its informative on Baltic Trade with the Maritime powers of UDP, England & France & brings out the question of did Sweden expand in an opportunist mode because its neighbours were going through a period weakness? Or was the "Dominium maris Baltici" a considered and long term Swedish policy to establish a monoply in Russian & North European traffic with the West?

For the Poltava Campaign - I enjoyed Peter Englund "The Battle of Poltava The Birth of the Russian Empire" (English version by Victor Gollancz 1992 ISBN 0 575 05107 Cool. A oddly titled book since its written from the Swedish Side and surely sure be sub titled The death of the Swedish Empire. Its got a really big list of sources inc and a very interesting Biographical Appendix mostly drawn from Karl XII: Officers Biographical Notes in two volumes!!

Think for God King & Country Players (no names....but Kingmaker) who are taking their wives to Siberia may like to look up one Brigitta Christine Scherzenfeldt.Very Happy

But my favourite amongst all these wounded 20 Times, escaped, killed, locked up for dauling types has got to be Johan Cronman.....starts as 2nd Lieutenant Narva Garrison, Capt in French Service 1994, Captain in Spanish Service 1695-97, captured as a Colonel of Kronoberg Regt in 1709, returned from Russia in 1722 and finished up as a Lt-General, Baron & County Governor. Fought in 13 Battles but never wounded. Spoke 8 languages..........its the Swedish Flashman!



Its got a

Nexus06
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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Nexus06 on Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:44 am

Stuart Bailey wrote:If you are looking for something a bit more detailed than Osprey you may like to consider:

If you are looking for a comparison of different armies of the period -  Arteus: Carolinian and European Battle Tactics 1700-1712 is interesting but since it was published in 1972 by Lidkoping not sure if its still in print and in which languages.

For a broad introduction to the whole of the Swedish Imperium  - Roberts both his anthology, Sweden's Age of Greatness 1632-1718 &
The Swedish Imperial Experience 1560-1718

For the Economic situation in the Baltic - Jill List, The Struggle for Supremacy in the Baltic is fairly simple but very interesting.  In particular its informative on Baltic Trade with the Maritime powers of UDP, England & France & brings out the question of did Sweden expand in an opportunist mode because its neighbours were going through a period weakness?  Or was the "Dominium maris Baltici" a considered and long term Swedish policy to establish a monoply in Russian & North European traffic with the West?

For the Poltava Campaign - I enjoyed Peter Englund "The Battle of Poltava The Birth of the Russian Empire" (English version by Victor Gollancz 1992 ISBN 0 575 05107 Cool. A oddly titled book since its written from the Swedish Side and surely sure be sub titled The death of the Swedish Empire.  Its got a really big list of sources inc and a very interesting Biographical Appendix mostly drawn from Karl XII: Officers Biographical Notes in two volumes!!

Think for God King & Country Players (no names....but Kingmaker) who are taking their wives to Siberia may like to look up one Brigitta Christine Scherzenfeldt.Very Happy

But my favourite amongst all these wounded 20 Times, escaped, killed, locked up for dauling types has got to be Johan Cronman.....starts as 2nd Lieutenant Narva Garrison, Capt in French Service 1994, Captain in Spanish Service 1695-97, captured as a Colonel of Kronoberg Regt in 1709, returned from Russia in 1722 and finished up as a Lt-General, Baron & County Governor. Fought in 13 Battles but never wounded. Spoke 8 languages..........its the Swedish Flashman!



Its got a


Very interesting, thanks

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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by count-de-monet on Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:54 am

I love history, and because of the game involvement this period of European history really fascinates me now but sometimes playing this game with you guys SCARES me ! I am so impressed with some of the knowledge shown and shared on a wide range of subjects on this forum.

Nexus06
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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Nexus06 on Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:03 am

count-de-monet wrote:I love history, and because of the game involvement this period of European history really fascinates me now but sometimes playing this game with you guys SCARES me ! I am so impressed with some of the knowledge shown and shared on a wide range of subjects on this forum.

I agree with you

i sometimes face players who have actually played 3 or 4 times both contenders nations of a game, i.e. Sweden and Russia, or England and France. They had read all possible economical, historical or biographical history of all minor elements and actors of this period.

How can you possibly overcome this?

I hope Richard consider several factors in order to process the game or we are lost at T=0
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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by The Real Louis on Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:39 am

Nexus06 wrote:I hope Richard consider several factors in order to process the game or we are lost at T=0

I think you're more than right to hope! Though there is all this detailed history to use as background (and I'm another of those who finds the knowledge of some players awesome in its depth) it does seem to be background, rather than determinant. What shapes the flow of any game for any nation (in my own hopeful view) is the combination of the players in that particular game, what they are trying to do and how. So, you may have played both Sweden and Russia before, but the next time you come to play Sweden the guy playing Russia will play it totally differently to the way you've seen it played before (or played it yourself), the surrounding nations will also be acting different in who they support, how much and how. The pattern of drop-outs (and taken-over) and npc nations will be different, and I think Richard also varies the economic factors for each game. So it becomes like a kaleidoscope, as unpredictable.

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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by J Flower on Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:36 pm

The important bit to remember is that we are playing an alternative History, some of the things could have happened-Jacobites in England- Hapsburg reuniting the HRE & Spanish domains, Russia building a navy that stayed afloat, all things that could have happened if the trousers of time had been put on a different way. As you point out, the interaction of the players & NPC positions is different in each game, the starting positions are similar for each respective Nation, but I think Richard adds a degree of variation to each starting position for each individual game.

We can all take on the Name of various historical personalities, do our best to research their loves & vices, but will will never be 100% able to mimic all their actions.

Some things that happened historically may actually fail in game due to the timing, in game situation & all those "Sons of Mothers" who are playing the other positions & are not doing what you want them to do to allow you to achieve world domination.

You could argue that all that back ground knowledge is occasionally a disadvantage, as such players expect a certain result as they are trying to follow an historical precedent, but as we all know the die at Agema sometimes makes other decisions on our behalf, leaving them bewildered & in need of a shoulder to cry on.

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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Stuart Bailey on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:30 pm

J Flower wrote:The important bit to remember is that we are playing an alternative History, some of the things could have happened-
.

I have always followed the following rules in games ref Historical facts:

1) If one gets in the way - CHANGE IT. Even if Richard did seem to object to my ambition to wipe out the Janissary Corp 100 years early.

2) And following that classic quote from the Man who shot Liberty Valance "If the choice is to print the myth or print the facts.......print the myth".
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Re: Regimentals organization

Post by Deacon on Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:04 pm


I'm also a firm believer that this is alternate history, and you should change the world to suit you.

But...

It is wise to pick your battles on these things carefully. Better to take a few things at a time. But once you're committed, be 100% committed.


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