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Game 10

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Deacon
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Re: Game 10

Post by Deacon on Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:00 am


I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I thought that the Papal ruling needs to be honoured. I don't actually think that. I think that Catholic players will need to step a bit carefully, but there is a very long tradition of Monarchs nodding politely to the Pope while saying "oh hell no" under their breath. I think players who are careful to not trash the Pope can walk around most of the ruling.

The point you're making about the marriage contract is one I agree with. Contract law is very straight forward. You give something and you get something. It can't be one way. France didn't get, so it doesn't have to give. I don't agree that the marriage contract is a religious matter. It isn't in my view.

The Papal claim to Naples was based on a forgery, and there was a lot of nodding and pretending on this score, but let's be real. Spain 'pays' the Papacy a pittance to let them keep the fig leaf that it is theirs. If the Papacy had a real and defensible claim on the territory, they wouldn't do that. While I could well be wrong, I think I've read that it was known in period that the Papal Claim was specious, so the Pope didn't push, and the Spanish let the Pope keep up that fiction. That now will be likely tested.

I think people want to make this all about legal arguments, and they do have their place, but at the end of the day the one who wins the hearts and minds of the Spanish Nobles will win the throne. France and Austria both have great claims which does put them up in the game. But since they've both pissed repeatedly on the idea of taking the crown, that puts them a fair bit down in the game.

I will be curious how the Spanish Royal council moves here. They don't actually have any obligation to listen to the Pope, but he IS the pope.

I don't think the race is near done, but I do think Portugal is gaining ground even despite this ruling, because he seems to be really working it.

Fun times!

Jason, pass the popcorn!
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Kerensky
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Re: Game 10

Post by Kerensky on Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:09 am

I agree, this will be a thoroughly enjoyable few turns. Smoke is clearing, but still many paths to play out. Papal Ruling, another incident of ‘Civil Disorder’ in France, Spanish Fleet arrives in Sardinia. G10’s game of cards on the Spanish Succession moves into the denouement. A new player has joined at the table, how will this shift the outcome? We shall see. We can all predict & we can all hope, but one thing I have learnt is, nothing will go completely according to plan...

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Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:24 am

Sorry if I gave the impression that people had asked for an Agame court style judgement, that wasn't what I intended, I was trying to point out that if an NPC Pope( Agema style) had published the current proposal, as appeared to be requested by papal involvement of players, it would have carried more weight than the current player generated one, & most probably would have been hearalded in a peace in our times fashion, because it comes from a fellow player, people are less likely to accept it automatically simply due in game competition.

Looking at it from a Playable/ payable point,

Austria + Spain combination of large European power with another large Europen/ Colonial power playable but expensive to play for a single player
France + Spain Combi of two large European & Colonial Positions ( But France being played as a team position) Expensive but could be split between the three players, a possability still a major shift in game power.France is already seen as the Major power in game, combined in a team position with Spain will it ultimatley effect game balance?
Portugal + Spain smaller European Colonial position with major European colonial position, similar problems to the Austrian position is it too big for one player? Admitted Deacon has pulled it off, but has admitted it is very time consuming & can lean into the expensive direction.
Papacy + Spain small European position with potentially a lot of relegious soft power + Spanish Empire, probably the most playable/ payable position from a game point of view for a single player, some concerns about relegious side of matters & how powerful it would make Papacy in comparison to other Catholic positions & non- Catholic positions.

Which players are willing to invest more time & maybe more importantly more money into taking the position forward I realise this is moving away on a tangent from the initial proposal but maybe it is also a factor to be considered, in some of the above combi's there lies the danger of players leaving the game due to real world time& finacial matters, so instead of having just an inactive Spain there would be by default other vacant positions as part of the fallout. Hope players have taken that into account when they make thair bids for the position.



At the end of it all sits Agema who will ultimately make the choice one way or another, influenced by various in game player actions


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Kerensky
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Re: Game 10

Post by Kerensky on Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:02 am

Hi Jason (F)/ Deacon,
I believe understand the nuance in your articulations. Nothing is absolute, but all actions from this point have potentially ‘enhanced’ consequences for player actions. It is very much how we play it through, which is the fun, the risk & the challenge.

Jason F, you comment on the personal financial consequences of individual plays are fair. I was actually relieved to get the ‘thanks but no thanks’ this turn from El Escorial, as I have picked up another large position in another game since I had that particular ‘bright idea’. With Spain in G9 & the new position, I would have been stretched budget wise (I have a tendency to get a ‘little thorough’ on my assets list, which is not the cheapest choice).
I enjoy the game, but we all have competing priorities & I always like to commit on the basis I can do three years, based on current financial circumstances. I would likely have had to drop one of the three if I had ‘got lucky’, which would have been a pants outcome.
G10 provides tremendous fun for limited outlay (for me), so future choices will very much look to maintain that state of play.
James
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tkolter
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Re: Game 10

Post by tkolter on Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:38 pm

As a player of a mighty nation I'm studying the tome the Book of Revelations to learn the secrets of the game and the important knowledge held therein.

study

Wooden Forts ... interesting.

study

Need more academies as well.

study

Oh as for the Pope I'm planning a statement as a leader and am still drafting it. Cool
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Rozwi_Game10
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Re: Game 10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:55 am

Yeah, I'm going to have to reread all the Agema books I have, to familiarise myself with how you fight wars/campaigns. Currently reading a book on the warrior chiefs of South Africa, but so far I've not found much military help from its page :/

J Flower
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Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:44 am

wern't some of the tribal clashes in Africa resolved in a your champion against their champion sort of contest, with the rival tribes looking on in as interested bystanders? Or have I gotten it completely wrong.

Or is it more of the massed charge with loud shouting that we you are looking to install as military doctrine?
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Rozwi_Game10
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Re: Game 10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:42 am

I've read of three types of 'battles' in Southern Africa fought between Tribals.

1/ Tribe A + Tribe B meet at prearranged time and place. Throw insults and then flimsy spears at each other. Very unlucky warriors, too stupid to dodge or hold their big shields correctly, get wounded. Winner is decided by some system of judging who shouted/danced/insulted the best. Loser gives up cattle.

2/ Tribe A + Tribe B Meet at prearranged time and place. Throw insults at each other. Multiple 'champions' from each side stride out from the massed spearmen and perform to the best of their abilities, in such talents as dance and insults and gesturing with spears. Winning side decided by some form of judging system. Loser gives up cattle.

3/ Tribe A cattle raids Tribe B. Tribe B retaliates. Tribe A invades Tribe B. Massed charge battle(s) take place. Tribe A wins, then Tribe B relocates to new lands. Tribe B wins, then retaliates through invading Tribe A. If draw, then time of recovery before first ready invades the other. People die. One tribe becomes refugees and forced to relocate.

I've only read a small account on Blacks versus Whites. The Rozwi against the Portuguese in the Zambezi Valley in the 1690s. I've not found much info (not that I've really looked). From what I can tell, the Blacks won thanks to outnumbering the Portuguese forces, being more aggressive, and clever use of basic stratagems.
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Jason
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Re: Game 10

Post by Jason on Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:40 pm

Let's not forget that, in addition to the Papal announcement, we still have the situation in Poland, following some brilliant play by Deacon. Is the deposing of the King actually finite? Or will some nobles push for a restoration? Will the Saxon think his Polish crown worth fighting for? And what will the Russians do?

Plus, what have the Danes got against good honest Scottish sailors...do I need to hire Stuart and his completely legal and honest ships to do the same to the Danes?

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Re: Game 10

Post by J Flower on Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:12 pm

The Poland situation is an interesting one, because the Nobles who get to decide who will be king also get to dictate to a certain extent what kind of relationship there will be between the Nobility & the King, so the actual position of king can be quite a weak one, as yet there appears no definate candidate for the crown & one names go inot the aht the negotiations with the Nobles will begin, also is the Duchy of Lituania going to be included in the negotiations, or as part of the Rus, they could decide to ask the Tsar for help & protection, or even just go it alone as an independant Duchy.

If future king is lucky he will get a say in running the country of Poland, the question is how great will that say be, by tradition it needs only one of the Nobles in the Parliament to vote against something & it will be an automatic veto. Like England, the king is officially the ruler but in name only with others actually getting their hands dirty in the world of political wrangling.

Becoming king of Poland could is Deacon or another player is unlucky actually be quite a frustrating experience, especially if outside powers get the ear of certain elements of the Nobility as was historically the case.
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Deacon
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Re: Game 10

Post by Deacon on Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:20 pm

Poland historically was extraordinarily broken.

It feels like Richard in his dark way has made it even more broken in game.

We'll see if my efforts pan out, or if I eventually just give up in frustration...
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tkolter
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Re: Game 10

Post by tkolter on Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:43 pm

J Flower wrote:wern't  some of the tribal clashes in Africa resolved in a your champion against their champion sort of contest, with the rival tribes looking on in as interested bystanders? Or have I gotten it completely wrong.

Or is it more of the massed charge with loud shouting that we you are looking to install as military doctrine?

Abyssinia has a modern army if anyone thinks raiding into it to take people to be slaves will meet armored and well armed cavalry and be crucified after a proper military trial.

If anyone comes in to show their manhood by dancing and tossing spears they will be met by the Abyssinian Legion armored and ready to fight, and I mean fight.

And I'll do champion against champion the mightiest of my person guard for the Emperor, in armor and shield all steel with the best weapons that can be provided and hopefully trained to level three. I can tell you who would likely win against someone with traditional shields and spears.

As for the Doctrine think western army tactics with a local touch in simple terms the Legions are to form up and fight with tactics and to exploit their better armor and weapons and training. Tribal units doesn't mean stupid.

And some neighbors are Ottoman troops or Muslims they have better troops and war tactics than native tribes.
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Deacon
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Re: Game 10

Post by Deacon on Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:57 pm


Abyssinia is kind of out of the way for most other positions. Unless you do something to really provoke an attack, I can't imagine anyone going to the effort of actually moving an army to you.

While you never want to say never with Richard, I have never seen a GM controlled nation start a conflict.
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tkolter
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Re: Game 10

Post by tkolter on Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:38 pm

I know but would my ruler know that? Seriously the Emperor would want a suitable armed force for me that means numbers or quality the latter is less expensive.

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Jason
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Re: Game 10

Post by Jason on Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:19 pm

I'd agree Agema would never have an NPC start a war with an active position but I think (as Deacon might recall from G8 and Oman) an NPC might try and provoke a war.  In G8 I was Persia and Oman (now convinced was an NPC) undertook a number of actions that seemed designed to provoke me into attacking them.  Frankly if I hadn't screwed up my military development in position I would have declared war.

As to Abyssinia in G10, well you never know when another position nearby might become active and might attack so preparing now makes sense.   Also while the above about NPC stands, I wouldn't be surprised if NPC slave raids took pace-not an act of war perhaps but something that needs your military; plus as France in G10  knows, civil unrest is always on the cards.  

Will be interesting to see what happens in Poland, adds a nice contrast to Spain-at least you feel like it's a place things are happening and no lawyers are required Wink   Wasn't it in G3 when the restored King James ended up as King of Poland? Maybe if the Spanish don't want a landless, penniless exile as king in G10, James Stuart could consider Poland instead?  At this time there was quite a lot of Scottish trade with Poland and, as a result, Scots in Poland so he'd feel right at home.

I think we might all being ignoring China at our peril...I suspect Lord Fong is secretly building a vast army and navy that will shortly arrive off Cadiz to claim the throne (or was that just me in G9?)

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Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:14 am

I note that Agema tends to throws things into a game return which reflects the players declared interests in game.

So any Emperor of Abyssinia who declares he is on a crusade against nasty Muslim Slave raiders will suddenly find reports of his border villages being raided for slaves, cattle etc. Basically Agema works on the basis that this type of thing is always going on in the background but the news stopped with the local Governor and never got to the capital. But if the Emperor declares an interest then the local leaders will will empowered to right these reports and ministers will put them into his Majesties in tray.

If the Emperor wants to put a stop to Muslim Slavers can I suggest he hits the Ottoman Red Sea ports and shuts their slave markets. To make up for the loss of trade he then issue letters of Marque and open up his Ports to nice Christian Privateers.
Chance of getting a combined Jihad waged by Ottomans, Sultan of Oman, India and Persia is quite small Rolling Eyes

Ref Poland.......in G1 and G2 I think a single player King of Poland was unhistorically strong and tended to beat up the neighbours from turn 1. So in order to reflect a bit of historic reality in game Richard split the Commonwealth into seperate positions with in 1700 a King who's power base is Saxony.

Think "Polish-Saxon" players now have alternative respecting the rules of the Commonwealth and just developing their bit.......which can be a bit lonely if you are the only one. Bit like being the only Ottoman or the only active member of the HRE and much more likely. Or you can try to overthrow the perfect constitution of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and centralize power.

Having played the King of Poland-Elector of Saxony. I failed due to x2 famines which wiped out Saxony but I think if you are willing to play a very, very long game it may be possible with luck (no famines early doors) to build up the position in game. In 1700 the King still has a great deal of influence and Patronage, control of foreign policy etc but no money apart from his own and what the Diets will vote him (which historically was sod all). Essentially you are running a very big position with the financial position of a medium position which is interesting to say the least.

Basically as King of Poland I was free to recruit in Poland, Bring in Saxon Miners to develop the Royal Monopoly on Minerals, appoint my "agents" to lots of interesting positions like Gov of Danzig, Admiral of Danzig, Castillian of Lvov etc etc, inspect and order local forces to drill and hire troops from the local nobility etc......I can confirm that the Commonwealth is awash with troops in parts its paying for the blighters to do something which is the catch.

But if you wanted to lead your in theory deadly military you were either going to be a) Saving for a long time b) Taking money from richer players ie the 1680's Polish Campaign was saved Vienna was paid for by the Pope/Catholic Church or c) Waiting to get invaded.........so you could make your big talk to the Diets in the hope that they would grant you some funds/troops paid by the Diet.

Suspect Deacon as a Great Lord of Poland probably has a stronger position in terms of money/troops than the King while the Royal position has soft power advantages. It may be possible to "unite" the Commonwealth by means of hard power from Warsaw but you will be running terrible risks of a new time of troubles esp if the Czar or the Sultan is half awake and wants to play the "Protector of the Cossacks card"



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tkolter
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Re: Game 10

Post by tkolter on Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:27 am

Well Abyssinia is banning slavery in the Empire not Africa I can just make the situation dire if slave raiders are caught since they would be criminals not legitimate military soldiers they don't get special rights now do they a group of warriors under a flag of a nation is another matter.

And I have other plans in the works which if they work will bear nice fruit in a way not violent.

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Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:57 am

Reading the Papal ruling I think its achieved a perfect balance of problems and bafflement for everyone:

- The HRE and its allies now have the green light and Papal blessing to invade Flanders, Milan & Savoy flying a nice shinny Papal Banner provided they drop the Hapsburg Claim to Spain and abandon any hope of alliance with Protestants.

Will Austrian Nobles think better of the Emperor because he has Papal backing for your campaign or worse because he has abandoned the vast majority of the Hapsburg inheritence and because they are now being ordered to cross the Rhine minus the Allies they expected to join them?

- Louis XIV is probably wondering does obeying the Pope improve or harm my honour score? Ignore Papal ruling and get blasted by Pope, Obey it and I have loads of Gallican Catholics saying I am not protecting the very foundations of the French Church & State as established by Saint Louis etc.

- King Pedro - If he defy's the Pope to unite Portugal and Spain but gets excommunicated does this improve or reduce his honour score?

I suspect next turn is going to see some frantic questions being directed at Ministers and Bishops and some replies from Agema which make replies rom the Oracle at Delpi look like models of clarity.

But before Scots, English, Dutch and other Heretics get too comfortable in the posh seats with their pop corn and laughing at the trials of poor suffering Catholics........will they still be laughing so much when King James Stuart is crowned King of Spain by the Pope? Twisted Evil
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Jason
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Re: Game 10

Post by Jason on Sat Dec 22, 2018 11:52 am

It does seem a bit of a bad turn for the French, was just rereading the paper over a cup of very nice chocolate-flavoured coffee and noticed something I had missed...along with the revolt at home they seem to be about to be kicked out of Japan too!

I'm starting to feel sorry for the French...
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Re: Game 10

Post by Deacon on Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:13 pm


There are no grounds for excommunicating anyone. Not that that has stopped the church before, but excommunication is for particular offenses. Disagreeing with the Pope about a political matter isn't even close to one of them.
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Jason
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Re: Game 10

Post by Jason on Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:35 am

Stuart Bailey wrote:
But before Scots, English, Dutch and other Heretics get too comfortable in the posh seats with their pop corn and laughing at the trials of poor suffering Catholics........will they still be laughing so much when King James Stuart is crowned King of Spain by the Pope? Twisted Evil

If that happens, I shall unleash the HAGGI OF WAR!!!!!! drunken (have I started the Christmas spirit a bit early? santa )
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Rozwi_Game10
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Re: Game 10

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:04 am

Jason wrote:...they seem to be about to be kicked out of Japan too!

Would the new account holder, please, contact Rozwi [in-game] to open up contract talks to facilitate the rice trade between Japan and Rozwi - sales commission and haulage fees negotiable.

Ooh, maybe this could be a reason to contact Kwantung China! Better find some chap who remembers tales of the big armada from the east, have him advice Chief Kudou that there's other nations across the big ocean to the far off east that have visited this Africa in the time of the ancestors ... Anyone speak Mandarin or Cantonese or Hakka?    

Rozwi will contact China and Japan in the game. I'm determined to find a 'legitimate' method Very Happy

We're still not, too, fussed about all your European wranglings and politicking, however elephant
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Kerensky
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Re: Game 10

Post by Kerensky on Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:33 am

For Rozwi, I can offer translation services in Hokkien & Cantonese. I am well equipped to order seafood, beverages & curse in both. Hokkien is a particularly satisfying dialect to curse in.
Mandarin & Hakka no. Hakka is particularly rare (at least amongst South East Asian Chinese).
If you wish to try our trade with the South East Asian Sultanates (Johor & Aceh), I can aid with Bahasa Melayu. In this, I can do even more than order seafood, drinks & swear. At a push I can make business conversations.
Madam Nursey is the real linguist in the family, fluent in English, Bahasa Melayu, Hokkien, Mandarin & some expertise in Japanese.
Rates are negotiable & I will send ‘our man in Africa’ to negotiate over the coming months....

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Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:38 pm

Ref East African trade with China..............was looking round the Museum at Fort George Mombassa and goods salvalged from both the fort itself (Built by Portugese, later owned by Oman and British) and from a Portugese Frigate and Arab/Indian trading Dhows which had sunk off the coast and what was on display included a lot of Venetian Glass and Chinese Porcelain.

Not sure how much East African traders were aware of the Manchu Empire but they certainly liked its products.

Rather than big European East Indiamen sailing between East Africa and Canton trade seems to have been via Arab and Indian middle men using traditional trade routes between Africa and West Coast of India. West Coast Indian traders in turn had links with traders on east coast of India who traded with south east Asia and they in turn traded with China and Japan.

Basically trade seems to be a sea going silk road with goods like Ivory or Porcelain going the whole way but actual merchants only doing stages.

Think East African powers can invest in trade with India no problem...........but if you want to invest in trade with China and be happy that its semi realistic what you need is a joint venture with an Indian Business Family.

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Re: Game 10

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:42 pm

Jason wrote:It does seem a bit of a bad turn for the French, was just rereading the paper over a cup of very nice chocolate-flavoured coffee and noticed something I had missed...along with the revolt at home they seem to be about to be kicked out of Japan too!

I'm starting to feel sorry for the French...


Starting to get worried about the budget of the Privateering Branch..........may have to start looking for alternative forms of revenue.pirat

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