Game10

Jason wrote:
I am not as hot on the various candidates as I should be but didn't Bavaria also have a claim on the throne?  I know they backed France in the war in the end but that could a really fun alternative WSS...either a three way war or France-Bavaria...

If Prince Maximilian of Wittelsbach's first-born son hadn't died in 1699, he would have become the King of Spain after Carlos II according to the First Partition Treaty.
From a House-perspective I believe the Wittelsbach has the strongest claim to the Spanish throne after the usual Bourbon and Habsburg claimants. As the Wittelsbachs are intermarried to both the major Royal Houses they would be the perfect middle-ground solution, even with the eyes of a 18th century statesman.

As for changes to the start-up I think Bavaria holding some control over Spanish Netherlands would be both interesting for the game and more historically accurate. Prince Maximilian was the governor of that province in 1700 and for a few more years into the WSS. He even evacuated there with his court and family when Bavaria was defeated by the Habsburg side in 1704.

Bavaria was the favoured compromise candidate in Game 9 between France and Austria subject to suitable compensation for both parties.  The Spanish player wasn't on board however hence the birth of the miracle child.  I don't think that went according to plan for the Spanish player as the Emperor demand that the Dowager Queen who is also his sister-in-law be made regent for the miracle child.  The Dowager Queen Regent has set her own policy refusing to support Venice against Austria and declaring war on Prussia.

Goldstar wrote:Bavaria was the favoured compromise candidate in Game 9 between France and Austria subject to suitable compensation for both parties.

I really wish that would have come true.

Bearlord wrote:

Goldstar wrote:Bavaria was the favoured compromise candidate in Game 9 between France and Austria subject to suitable compensation for both parties.

I really wish that would have come true.

Cannot see any player playing France or Austria ever letting Bavaria gain Spain. That would make Bavaria the equal of France and bigger than Austria. A nice dream for Bavaria players but cannot ever see it happening.

Interesting to hear that 2 players didn't work that well.

I think it's a hard thing to model the spanish succession well.

jamesbond007 wrote:
Cannot see any player playing France or Austria ever letting Bavaria gain Spain. That would make Bavaria the equal of France and bigger than Austria. A nice dream for Bavaria players but cannot ever see it happening.

This all depends on inter-player relations and how the in-game deals are set up, plus how other states act. In game 9 France and Austria wasn't the problem.
I know of two games where Portugal has gained Spain and that makes that combination even bigger than a Bavaria-Spain would be, so I don't see how it wouldn't be possible. Plus if there is an active Spanish player Bavaria may only get the titleship of King and not the de facto rulership in the game, just like England is ruled in practice by the Treasurer and not the King at the setup of a new game.

Portuguese players do seem to be able to gain spain. Like you said, it has happened in two games. Yet Bavaria never seems to get it. It looks like france and austria bargain with spain and sometimes portugal. Yet Bavaria never seems to be included. Perhaps in most games there is not a Bavarian player.?

Perhaps Bavaria simply needs a really good player who is active and committed wholeheartedly to gaining spain.? It would be good to see how such a Bavarian player gets on with his attempts to gain spain.

You might be right that Portugal is probably more often played than Bavaria is, but I think Bavaria is the most interesting of the German states on par with Prussia and maybe Saxony if they get into the role as King of Poland completely. Hanover also got their interesting path to follow up if they can manage to get the Crown of England.
Still I think the Wittelsbachs has the most unused political potential, if played well for the long-term and get some decent luck as well of course they could end up with the Crowns of Spain and Poland AND become the Holy Emperor. Probably not in the same person but Maximilian had a lot of sons.

If you want to play a position with some ambitions that can be built up for the long-term I think Bavaria is the perfect one. You will need some patience though and be rather skilled at diplomacy.

This post was sponsored by WittelsbachMedia.com

I'm always in favour of anything that makes the games more challenging, fun and interesting...so a Bavaria pushing its Spanish claim sounds fun to me

Just looked at the updated 'taken' list-Blackbeard, Jacobites and one Chinese province...so more pirates, naughty Stuarts (the Dynasty...not Mr Bailey  ) and Noble Far East types...

Hopefully we'll see more Chinese positions taken, and non-European ones generally, to make the game more global

Deacon wrote:
Interesting to hear that 2 players didn't work that well.

I think it's a hard thing to model the spanish succession well.

Speaking as one of the twinned Spanish players at the start of G7. I suspect it was probably a problem position for Richard to run and many players would have hated it but personally I found it a very interesting start up and I thought it worked well from a role playing point of view.

Basically in G7 1699/1700 the King of Spain was on his death bed and the two Spanish players represented the two sides (one pro Habsburg one pro Bourbon) of the split Royal Council which is running "Royal Spain" with one common treasury, common asset sheet etc.

Like in a mega Game of Napoleonic Battles more than one player could send orders to troops.......with the warning that like in Napoleonic Battles troops who receive conflicting orders are likely to sit round doing nothing and generally feeling "feed up". The same applied for all other servants of the Crown inc those in charge of the X3 Military Change orders. Plus if left unchecked X2 lots of spending orders had the potential to bankrupt the Crown.

For those who feel this set up leaves Spain too weak & France too strong I would argue that 1700 Spain should be in a mess (not ready to march on Lisbon as in some other games) and in the 1690's & in the WSS France was hugely strong only being held to draw's by Alliances which included most of the rest of Western/central Europe.

In summary the G7 Spanish players had no secrets from each other in terms of resources, possible different agenda's & allies and to cap it all another player had any effective veto over what you could do. This in itself would have triggered a civil war with some players I have known.

On the plus side this set up forced the Spanish players to actively co-operate or fight in very unknown circumstances and the Spanish Empire like the Ottoman Empire is one of those huge rambling positions which actually benefits from more than one player if they
co-operate.

In the event the Spanish factions agreed to co-operate and keep a open mind over the succession but with the firm agreement that the partition treaties were going in the bin! Players who know me are probably truely shocked to find out I had my fingers crossed behind my back when agreeing to listen to Bourbon Offers and yes I was willing to drawn Europe in Blood to save the Unity of the Spanish Empire (even though I was willing to give up Flanders to the French).

In the event both Spanish Players:

1) Did not like the Bavarian Pitch...........the Bavarians never really made a case for why we should Crown a Bavarian Prince but did seem to think we should bribe him with Milan or Flanders (or both). Strong feeling in Madrid, Paris & Vienna that Bavaria wanted to be bribed by everyone and would not stay bought no matter how much you paid him.

2) Oddly the "Real King Louis" did not push the claims of Philip of Anjou. I like to think frantic Hapsburg diplomacy..... inc the openning of Spanish Colonial Markets to English & Dutch traders in the name of free trade & allowing the Dutch their barrier fortresses in Flanders .....aimed at holding the League of Augsburg and the anti-French alliance of the 9 years war togethere. Helped give Paris a view that marching into Spain would trigger a war with Austria, England, UDP & the Spanish Hapsburgs.

The Spanish Bourbons seem to have started game expecting the French to loan them an Army to crush an NPC Hapsburg position then carry on to unite Spain & Portugal under the rule of Philip Bourbon and was very let down when Louis said No & No. The French Alliance with Portugal may have made sence from the position of French colonial rivalry with England and keeping tabs on potential expansion by Spain but it was the final abandonment of the Bourbon claim. And the Bourbon Spanish faction abandoned the Bourbon bit.

With powers like Portugal and Bavaria looking to circle the corpse of the Spanish Empire and a anti Hapsburg Saxony & Prussia it was a very worrying time for Spain & Hapsburgs (so I was double worried) and I think Louis could have made a good stab at putting a Bourbon on the throne of Spain. The tricky bit was his potential "allies" wanted to carve up the Spanish Empire, While the Spanish Bourbon faction was only interested in a French King/French Support as a way of keeping the empire united.

Basically I think G7 France viewed things from a National not a dynastic view point and was always more interested in the development of France and in its colonial/Naval rivalry with the English than it was in pushing the Bourbon claim to Spain and finally accepted a deal which allowed Charles Hapsburg to be crowned King of Spain and gave the French a clear run at England for five years.

Louis then expected Spain to act as if Philip of Anjou was on the throne and generally back Jacobite restorations and the like.......Why

3) In contrast the Emperor Leopold devoted himself whole heartedly to getting his second son the throne. Asking for nothing at all from Spain he handed his 2nd son over to the Spanish factions along with a Artillery mission to drill bore Spanish Cannon and tried a whole hearted charm offersive on all the Spanish Players.

In material terms this policy has given Austria nothing at all. But in other ways it represented a stunning diplomatic success for Austria when all the Spanish Factions united to Crown a Austrian Hapsburg King of Spain.


Sadly the ex Spanish Bourbon dropped out and never got to march on Lisbon but he did avoid the division of the Spanish Empire which was a better result than the historic Spanish Ministers achieved. And I think it it did show its possible to play very large but united positions in a collective manner ie at ministerial rather than Royal level.

Wonder if this might not be a solution to getting players for the game vital but Huge French positions?

Must confess stuart, i was the other Spanish player in game 7 and hated it. I did not like giving orders that were not acted on and having to work with orders given by another player that were very different from my own ideas and orders. Worst of all, i never knew which orders would be acted on and which discarded until a turn later, so hard to plan ahead.

Had i have carried on, i am sure the above would have carried on for many years. Which is why i dropped. Felt like i was wasteing so much time.

I feel sorry for Richard. He was playing the turn too. Having to decide which orders to take and which to discard. Then having to decide the outcome of those orders. So in effect, three of us were playing Spain. I would guess that Richard found it much more work and for no extra pay. I can see why the experiment was not repeated. I would be very surprised if two players would want to play that way for a few years or more. Could see a player dropping early very regulary. Which kind of misses the whole idea of why the position was split in the first place.

jamesbond007 wrote:Must confess stuart, i was the other Spanish player in game 7 and hated it. I did not like giving orders that were not acted on and having to work with orders given by another player that were very different from my own ideas and orders. Worst of all, i never knew which orders would be acted on and which discarded until a turn later, so hard to plan ahead.

Had i have carried on, i am sure the above would have carried on for many years. Which is why i dropped. Felt like i was wasteing so much time.

I feel sorry for Richard. He was playing the turn too. Having to decide which orders to take and which to discard. Then having to decide the outcome of those orders. So in effect, three of us were playing Spain. I would guess that Richard found it much more work and for no extra pay. I can see why the experiment was not repeated. I would be very surprised if two players would want to play that way for a few years or more. Could see a player dropping early very regulary. Which kind of misses the whole idea of why the position was split in the first place.

Hi fellow member of the G7 Spanish Crisis Govt,

Did you feel that my summary was a fair reflection of the set up in G7 and how it worked out?

My feeling is that in many games of Glori du Roi Spain (no matter if its ruled by a Hapsburg, Bavarian, Hapsburg or Bourbon) starts off unhistorically strong and not at any real risk of having its Empire broken up as per the partitian treaties.

The G7 start up solved this.......but clearly its easier and more fun for most players to run a single position which in many ways is the equal of France, England and Russia rather than try and play 50% of a complex diplomatic problem with at least one hand tied behind your back.

So in conclusion for this experiment to work properly Richard really needs two hard core players who enjoy a challenge bordering on head in hands "he's done what" frustration and a healthy dose of paranoia. I volunteer Jason & Deacon to share half of Spain each

Yes, i think your'e summing up was accurate. I have my doubts if any two players would enjoy shareing spain, for reasons i have already outlined.

I notice that the two players who have played a split spain have both not voluntered to play it again. Notice you voluntered jason and Deacon but not yourself. Would it not interest you to play it again.?

I think what makes a WSS unlikely is, that for game purposes, we are only at the start of LGDR and all nations look to build up for a few years before looking to take anyone on. That is where this game differs from history. Anyone attacking in a WSS from turn one risk their game position and country being skint and no recruits to build up for years. While other nations are building up their prosperity and infrastructure.

So in my opinion the above is really why a WSS never really takes place in Glory, and there is no real or easy way around that.

I couldnt be 100% certain but I thought that at the start of game 7 that Richard created two shared positions. The other was France, with one player as the king in control of European France and the other player controlling the French colonies. I think that the colonial French position was dropped by about 1703.

When I thought two players for Spain, I was thinking more that each controlled some assets and were duking it out to get the whole thing.

But even so, the description of game 7 suggests to me that it still wouldn't quite work, so I can see why Richard abandoned it.

Would be interesting to see a game where France was willing to really roll the dice to try to claim it all. Not sure I'd want to stand in that firestorm, but it's be interesting to watch!

Bit of an update, I have swopped the reserve for the Great Moghul for France. Best of luck to Moghul India in game 10. War of the Spanish Succession here we go!

France came open? Lucky you! But a big, big position...

The 2 player approach in France has happened before in Game 2 or was it 3? Either way the Colonial French Player and the French home player fell out and nearly had a war. The colonial player was more friendly and the other player bankrupted France. As Russia I paid off over £2,000,000 of debts to clear out the new french player (the old colonial player) as the other player jacked the game in. I then negotiated to get 10,000 recruits every year in exchange for £1,000,000 every year. France and Russia had a very good relationship.

But unless both players work very closely it will fail.

Basileus wrote:Bit of an update, I have swopped the reserve for the Great Moghul for France. Best of luck to Moghul India in game 10. War of the Spanish Succession here we go!

If only I had known the WSS was on! Pity the Austrian, Spanish, English & Dutch positions have already been taken.......hope they are ready for a spot of frog bashing:D

Wonder if I should offer my services as the French Protestant Rebels? Or Jean Bart and his merry men??

Kingmaker wrote:The 2 player approach in France has happened before in Game 2 or was it 3?  Either way the Colonial French Player and the French home player fell out and nearly had a war.  The colonial player was more friendly and the other player bankrupted France.  As Russia I paid off over £2,000,000 of debts to clear out the new french player (the old colonial player) as the other player jacked the game in.  I then negotiated to get 10,000 recruits every year in exchange for £1,000,000  every year.  France and Russia had a very good relationship.

But unless both players work very closely it will fail.

I spent flipping ages trashing the French EH in G2 and some Russian goes and undoes all of Iskander "I love the smell of burning villages in the morning...it smells like Victory" Kruppa good work........aaaaaaagh

Would this be the same Russian who rebuilt Venice after the Rumelians burnt it to the ground, salted it, filled its wells with dead bodies and it lagoon with wrecks while building up Trieste as a really nice alternative port?

Hope in G10 the Swedes and the Ottomans can get their act togethere to put an end to "loveable cuddly czars"

At the rate its going Glori is getting as bad a scrabble......where the Jolly Old Czar is now the most well thought of character in the game and likes nothing more than the ballet and singing hymns

To quotw Hendrik Willem van Loon "When the Tsar of all the Russias, begins to talk sweetly of brotherly love, it is time for all decent people to look to their guns"

yes it was me

It was recommend PR for the Tsars profile he was suffering a bit...