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Agema Publications

A forum for the disscussion of the Play by Mail games from Agema Publications


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jamesbond007
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    Game 10

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    jamesbond007
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    Post by jamesbond007 Sat May 01, 2021 5:24 pm

    Papa Clement wrote:
    J Flower wrote:Are we looking at it all wrong.

    Like it or not Rodrigo has been crowned in Spain accepted by his people as king. So there is no succession crisis in Spain. Yes I know there are players who  have other views, but that is all part & parcel of the game. It was a decision made in the GAME & now the GAME moves forward with that added to its history & background information file.

    Not the case at all.

    Not so long ago you wrote that a player could crown himself king of the moon, but it would be meaningless and he would just appear foolish.

    The most you can say is that there are 2 people who claim to be King of Spain: King Karl Hapsburg (who as far as everyone knows is still alive), and Roderigo.

    You know full well that in G7 King James was crowned and the official 'player' for England was 'king' William.  It took years of war and treaties for this to be resolved.  I do not therefore see that with 2 sides backing opposing candidates you can claim that "the GAME" has moved on and that this is settled in favour of Roderigo.

    By the actions he has taken in game, Roderigo has made it impossible for him ever to be recognised by the church.  This may be irrelevant to you, but it remains a factor in the game.

    Indeed, if Roy is going to sue Agema if he doesn't get his own way, then I suggest that the odds on Roderigo (the character) surviving have changed substantially.




    Let me correct you.

    Those two sides who are backing opposing candidates have both signed treaties with Spain and Rodrigo.

    Rodrigo is recognised by the church. The biggest catholic Church with pope Leo. Your church is now in the minority. More Catholics follow Pope Leo. Your church has lost the support of most Catholics

    I am not going to sue agema. So stop trying to put pressure on Richard yourself. You are making yourself look a little obvious. Lol. Even suggesting Richard kills off Rodrigo.
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    Post by Papa Clement Sat May 01, 2021 6:01 pm

    jamesbond007 wrote:Let me correct you.

    Please don't try what is self-evidently beyond you.


    jamesbond007 wrote:Rodrigo is recognised by the church. The biggest catholic Church with pope Leo. Your church is now in the minority. More Catholics follow Pope Leo. Your church has lost the support of most Catholics.

    With your chums you have created a character, dressed him up and are pretending that he has some authority to rubber stamp whatever fantasies your team indulge.

    It is meaningless and seen to be meaningless.

    You object to King Karl being King of Spain in place of you, but promote Leo in place of Pope Clement.    At least King Karl is a real historical character in the game not just someone made up to try to wreck the Papacy and undermine the church.  Either you believe that Leo is 'pope' and consequently that an inactive character can replace a player (thus King Karl can replace you), or the opposite.  I appreciate that you regularly assert contradictory positions simultaneously, but perhaps this has not yet occurred to you.

    jamesbond007 wrote:I am not going to sue agema.

    Then you will abide by whatever decision Agema reaches in their peace conference even if it means distributing lands you believe should be held by yourself?

    Part of the problem you have had since you joined is that you joined AFTER the judgement had been made and accepted, so the Spain you pay to play is the Spain post-Judgement (i.e. with Flanders/Milan going to Austria and the Papal Fiefs returning to the Papacy, as per the rulebook).  You chose to play a made up character (Roderigo) in opposition to the lawful King of Spain (King Karl Hapsburg), and declared that you would 'restore' the territories which were ruled by King Carlos II as at 1700 (except that you immediately sold off some of those territories to others).  So by your 'logic' is it fine for you to steal Papal lands, but not (as part of a peace conference) for Agema to restore those lands to the Papacy as per the rulebook?

    And in case you are wondering it would be illegal for a Pope to entrust the Papal Fiefs to someone who has been excommunicated.
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    Post by jamesbond007 Sat May 01, 2021 6:19 pm

    Let me correct you Again.

    Rodrigo was not a character created by me. He was already in the game and a character before i joined the game. He had even been Kinged i think.?

    Must go  now. Thanks for the chat and entertainment.
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    Post by Papa Clement Sat May 01, 2021 6:51 pm

    jamesbond007 wrote:Rodrigo was not a character created by me. He was already in the game and a character before i joined the game. He had even been Kinged i think.?

    If Roderigo was already in the game and 'kinged', I think you would know about it.

    Clearly it has taken 10 games of LGDR for the character to appear and all previous players in all previous LGDR games have been misled.

    Well if that's your story and you're sticking to it at least other players are aware of your view and can form their own judgement, as I have.
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    Post by jamesbond007 Sat May 01, 2021 7:00 pm

    Papa Clement wrote:
    jamesbond007 wrote:Rodrigo was not a character created by me. He was already in the game and a character before i joined the game. He had even been Kinged i think.?

    If Roderigo was already in the game and 'kinged', I think you would know about it.

    Clearly it has taken 10 games of LGDR for the character to appear and all previous players in all previous LGDR games have been misled.

    Well if that's your story and you're sticking to it at least other players are aware of your view and can form their own judgement, as I have.


    Wrong Again Let me correct you again.

    I believe one of the previous Spanish players created the Character Rodrigo.

    I cannot keep correcting you i have things to do. Hope i have helped you. Goodnight.
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    Post by Papa Clement Sat May 01, 2021 7:20 pm

    Spain was inactive for months before you joined - I know because I considered playing Spain in G10 rather than the Papacy.

    If Roderigo (the character) had existed then, it is very strange that his backstory and 'claim' to the crown of Spain was not brought to the attention of players during this time. Instead we had to wait for your arrival and explanation of how contrary to real history and every other game of LGDR, there is (according to you) no Spanish Succession crisis to be resolved because Roderigo is here.

    I don't know which Roderigo is worse: the renegade fantasist in G10 or Roderigo Martello, the pirate from G7.
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    Post by J Flower Sat May 01, 2021 7:41 pm

    Lets see if I got this right p41 Rulebook Peace Conferences.

    " The players agree to attend a peace conference at a specific town or city. Once they have agreed that (by letter or public
    announcement), then each must inform AGEMA in his orders that he wants to attend it. Mention of it in a letter or newspaper article is not sufficient, attendance must be mentioned directly to AGEMA in your game orders! Each player must also
    mention who he will accept as attendees at the peace conference.

    If one or more persons who would be acceptable as attendees do not inform AGEMA that they are attending then the
    peace conference will not start."


    So unless both players agree then it won't happen? At the moment I would guess the chances of those involved in France Austria & Spain agreeing to it are slim.

    Good point that Karl Hapsburg is still around & still has a claim. I stand corrected on that point. Where he is & in what state he is in may well determine his fate. There may well yet be a Spanish civil war, lets be honest we don't know for sure.

    Rodrigo was Crowned by a previous player & did abdicate. So it is true he was in the game prior to the current Spanish player taking over. He has been reinstated as King, what the consequences of this action are or will be will become clearer as the game progresses. Spain was seen as a poisoned chalice. However it has been brought back from the brink which is an achievement by itself. Not everyone will agree with the method ,such is human nature but it was an option open to the player, & as such it was taken . Now that action will cause reactions how these are dealt with by other players will give G10 a dynamic that will separate it from the other games that are running

    The game & the process in Spain is still evolving like the game in general. Yes indeed there are 2 candidates for the throne. One ( Rodrigo) currently seems to have the upper hand. As the game goes on this situation may remain or it may change, only time will tell, Karl may well have his moment in the lamp light as well. It is all possible & I am not willing to rule it out. One of the strengths of the games in general is that such outcomes are potentially possible.



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    Post by Papa Clement Sat May 01, 2021 8:35 pm

    J Flower wrote:Lets see if I got this right p41 Rulebook Peace Conferences.

    " The players agree to attend a peace conference at a specific town or city. Once they have agreed that (by letter or public announcement), then each must inform AGEMA in his orders that he wants to attend it. Mention of it in a letter or newspaper article is not sufficient, attendance must be mentioned directly to AGEMA in your game orders! Each player must also mention who he will accept as attendees at the peace conference. If one or more persons who would be acceptable as attendees do not inform AGEMA that they are attending then the peace conference will not start."

    So unless both players agree then it won't happen? At the moment I would guess the chances of those involved in France Austria & Spain agreeing to it are slim.

    Having looked up this reference, there is a sentence before this starts, namely: "To end a war players may want AGEMA to be involved, in which case they must follow this procedure: ..."

    This implies (if it is not specifically stated) that only the players who are at war may call a peace conference and send attendees to it.  Thus if Spain is not at war, Spain cannot send an attendee to a peace conference, which was the point I made some time ago.

    Now of course my interpretation of this may be incorrect, but I doubt it because if players who are not involved in a war can call an Agema peace conference and send attendees then what is stopping the Maritime Powers from doing just that?

    J Flower wrote:
    Good point that Karl Hapsburg is still around & still has a claim. I stand corrected on that point. Where he is & in what state he is in may well determine his fate. There may well yet be a Spanish civil war, lets be honest we don't know for sure.

    Rodrigo was Crowned by a previous player & did abdicate. So it is true he was in the game prior to the current Spanish player taking over. He has been reinstated as King, what the consequences of this action are or will be will become clearer as the game progresses. Spain was seen as a poisoned chalice. However it has been brought back from the brink which is an achievement by itself. Not everyone will agree with the method ,such is human nature but it was an option open to the player, & as such it was taken . Now that action will cause reactions how these are dealt with by other players will give G10 a dynamic that will separate it from the other games that are running.

    The game & the process in Spain is still evolving like the game in general. Yes indeed there are 2 candidates for the throne. One (Rodrigo) currently seems to have the upper hand. As the game goes on this situation may remain or it may change, only time will tell,  Karl may well have his moment in the lamp light as well. It is all possible & I am not willing to rule it out. One of the strengths of the games in general is that such outcomes are potentially possible.

    I do not have newspapers from that far back, but I am willing to take JFlower's word on the existence of Roderigo as a character in G10.  Although I am curious of the circumstances around his abdication and how these are different to those which he came back.  Was there an earlier player who made him up to get himself out of a jam and then realised how stupid the whole idea was and dropped?  Either way it does not change the fact that as played by Roy, Roderigo has managed to get himself excommunicated and is not considered to be King of anything by the church and several other players who are backing King Karl Hapsburg.  JFlower may not like to admit it, but the phrase 'Spanish civil war' does accurately describe the mess that is engulfing the lands that were under Spanish control in 1700, just as the phrase 'war of religion' accurately describes the attempt by Roderigo and his chums to take on the Catholic Church.  I'm sure King Karl is most appreciative of all the help given by players to try to stabilise his Kingdom, and after executing the renegade, Roderigo, he will take their opinions into account when he is able.
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    Post by Stuart Bailey Sat May 01, 2021 9:08 pm

    All this lawyer talk and peace conference stuff looks much too complicated for any true French Gentleman !!

    Surely it must be easier and quicker to kill say 30,000 Swedes & Austrians and clear France of invaders with cold steel?

    The Bourbon's have already abandoned their claims to Spain, Milan, Naples & Sicily and everything other than the French fief of Flanders.  While the Emperor has already offered to give Flanders to the UDP so is clearly not that bothered by Flanders.  So the Franco-Imperial war would now seem to be over can France save its 1700 borders from Imperial claims to Franche-Comte and Strassburg and also the defence of the historic rights of the French Church (an issue I very much doubt the Emperor is willing to spend blood and treasure over unlike Franche-Comte).

    The second dispute in Europe which is clearly nothing at all to do with Franch is the dispute between the Austrian and Spanish Branches of the Hapsburgs over does a the claims of a natural son of Carlos II rank over a the claims of a more distant but legitimate heir.  In Flanders where Salic Law applies the answer is a clear no and everyone who matters apart from the Emperor has accepted the claims of the Duc of Anjou.  May be a small Flanders shaped fig-leaf over French pride but it matters ok.

    However, in the South as witnessed by Portugal in 1640 and Sicily it seems that a natural born son can become King esp if he has the full backing of the Royal Navy.  But in all honesty if one side is saying the others are usurpers and rebels do not see how questions like that can be decided at a peace conference.

    Seems to me that to get what he wants the Emperor is not going to do it with Peace talks - He will need to actually do some fighting.  Which with luck should keep poor hard working Corsairs fully employed for years:lol!:  And if any French Minister is so cowardly and gutless as to imply abject French surrender to the Emperor they should probably also consider that their is such a thing as the St Malo boat ride!

    One thing I am pretty sure over is that the Austo-Spanish Treaty in G10 is going to make loads of lawyers really happy and make the Treaty of Scotland in G7 look like a model of utmost good faith.

    Anyone fancy a sweep stake on the Austo-Spanish Treaty lasting for three years?

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    Post by jamesbond007 Sun May 02, 2021 7:44 am

    Having a good read of the Austrian peace plan. It looks to me to clearly breech the treaty Austria has with Spain.

    Be interesting to see what Richard thinks of it next turn.
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    Post by Papa Clement Sun May 02, 2021 10:44 am

    Stuart Bailey wrote:All this lawyer talk and peace conference stuff looks much too complicated for any true French Gentleman !!

    Surely it must be easier and quicker to kill say 30,000 Swedes & Austrians and clear France of invaders with cold steel?

    Hasn't France had several opportunities to do just that?  Go back a month and a Swedish army with a few Austrian reinforcements was surrounded by multiple stronger French armies who looked like they were moving in for the kill.  Waiting until the Swedes/Austrians were somewhat tired from previous battles, then hitting them with overwhelming numbers of fresh troops would seem to me to be a sound plan for France, but what happened?  Could it be that the troops refused to fight to defend their own capital because they might not get paid, or possibly because they would not back an excommunicated ruler who is trying to split the church and know that when they are shot they will go to hell?  Something is clearly not quite right somewhere.  I don't know, but I cannot think of any strategic reason why there should not have been a decisive and crushing French victory this month if numbers alone are the determining factor on the battlefield.



    Stuart Bailey wrote:The Bourbon's have already abandoned their claims to Spain, Milan, Naples & Sicily and everything other than the French fief of Flanders.  While the Emperor has already offered to give Flanders to the UDP so is clearly not that bothered by Flanders.  So the Franco-Imperial war would now seem to be over can France save its 1700 borders from Imperial claims to Franche-Comte and Strassburg and also the defence of the historic rights of the French Church (an issue I very much doubt the Emperor is willing to spend blood and treasure over unlike Franche-Comte).

    Franche-Comte already voluntarily went over to Austria, in part as a protest against the anti-Catholic stance of team France, so that is already lost to France.  I can't see the Emperor taking a huge honour hit by handing loyal Catholics over to an excommunicated Louis so he can send his troops in to 'convert' them to protestants.

    I've not been following the situation on the ground close enough to know if Strassburg is still in French hands or not, but many towns across France are in Swedish or Austrian hands.

    As for Flanders, as a fief of the Emperor's it cannot be assigned to anyone without his consent.  It is somewhat unrealistic to state that France has abandoned its claims on Milan and Sicily when my understanding is that French troops (under Savoyard command) are occupying Milan, and French troops (under Corsair command) are occupying Sicily.

    Since this links in to whatever treaties/arrangements have been done with Roderigo, it cannot be seriously argued that this is separate from the wider conflicts.


    Stuart Bailey wrote:...  if one side is saying the others are usurpers and rebels do not see how questions like that can be decided at a peace conference.

    Up to a point, it was in G7.  As part of the peace terms Spain/Austria/UDP agreed that King James was King of England, etc, replacing William the usurper.


    Stuart Bailey wrote:One thing I am pretty sure over is that the Austo-Spanish Treaty in G10 is going to make loads of lawyers really happy and make the Treaty of Scotland in G7 look like a model of utmost good faith.  Anyone fancy a sweep stake on the Austo-Spanish Treaty lasting for three years?

    I can see how it can suit some players to pretend that by signing contradictory agreements they think they are in the clear, but they aren't.  

    A few months ago, I stated in the newspaper that the Treaty between Austria and Roderigo was void and could not be considered binding for reasons described there.  

    The same applies to any treaty Roderigo signed with France.  Indeed the treaty with France is arguably more meaningless given the situation in Paris.  Is King Louis really going to abandon his capital and watch France collapse (and quite possibly end up bungled into a boat in St.Malo by irate Corsairs) because he is prepared to stand by Roderigo?  And if he does, where will that leave the Corsairs?  Exile Frenchmen or will they become mercenaries for Roderigo?  Clearly the path of least resistance is for Louis to accept the terms and set aside any agreement with Roderigo simply to retain control of France.  If the rumours are true that Roderigo was planning to annex parts of southern France himself anyway, then clearly Louis has been betrayed by Roderigo and would be perfectly justified in using this as an excuse to void his treaty.  The longer the decision is delayed then the greater the chance that more areas of France desert to Austria anyway, to preserve their livelihoods and religion.  If crunch time isn't here, then it is very close, so some kind of decision will have to be made by King Louis and the Corsairs will just have to lump it.  Perhaps we will have a French civil war to add to the Spanish civil war, religious war and war of the Spanish Succession?  The corsairs may be very busy and might even be happy, if they can find a new sponsor so they get paid for their efforts?
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    Post by Stuart Bailey Sun May 02, 2021 12:14 pm

    Had a look at proposed Austrian terms for France and no it is not a breach of the Austo-Spanish treaty.

    Its just a very clear sign that the Emperor views his treaty with the "usurpers and traitors in Madrid" (his and Pope Clements opinion.....not mine, not mine!) as a cease fire with them while he deals with his French foe. Which lets face it is pretty standard tactics in Glori du Roi.

    Only real question is will the treaty last for another two years or will the Austrians break it in order to save their Italian allies? Or will the Spanish break it when some Austrian gets in the way of Spanish shooting at Swedes or Italians.

    Since its all so clearly just a cease fire I suspect any penalty for say Austrian forces breaking treaty to save Rome from a Spanish sack with be pretty minor. Ditto shot a few Austrians who were deliberately trying to protect heretic Swedes from Spanish forces who the hell in Madrid gives a damn.

    As for Papa Clement belief that the French could have defeated the Swedes with ease last month........has he ever read the history of the Caroline Army or Agema Wargames rules!? At Narva they marched for days through a snow storm and around 10,000 then attacked and routed 30,000 inside defences. At Holowczyn 20,000 attacked across a river to rout 38,000 and even at Poltava with their gunpowder rotton, their cavalry ruined by the winter in the Ukraine 25,000 of them very nearly broke 40,000 Russians in field works with a massive artillery advantage.

    Fighting Swedes on anything like even terms under Agema rules is a bit like using Dragoons v Winged Hussar under the Gush Rules or mounted Crossbows v Gendarmes in ancients you are going to get hammered!

    Basically against Swedes and Eugine Austraians only hope is to grind them down over a long period of time and drag them down to your level. Attacking them while they are ready and waiting to unleash 150 plus really deadly Cavalry Squadrons in wedge is just stupid! But use fast gallop and cavalry wedge in the mean streets of Paris and you probably get head taken off by a washing line so its more even fighting in towns and woods etc.



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    Post by Papa Clement Sun May 02, 2021 12:55 pm

    Stuart Bailey wrote:As for Papa Clement belief that the French could have defeated the Swedes with ease last month........has he ever read the history of the Caroline Army or Agema Wargames rules!?  At Narva they marched for days through a snow storm and around 10,000 then attacked and routed 30,000 inside defences.  At Holowczyn 20,000 attacked across a river to rout 38,000 and even at Poltava with their gunpowder rotton, their cavalry ruined by the winter in the Ukraine 25,000 of them very nearly broke 40,000 Russians in field works with a massive artillery advantage.

    Fighting Swedes on anything like even terms under Agema rules is a bit like using Dragoons v Winged Hussar under the Gush Rules or mounted Crossbows v Gendarmes in ancients you are going to get hammered!

    Basically against Swedes and Eugine Austrians only hope is to grind them down over a long period of time and drag them down to your level.  Attacking them while they are ready and waiting to unleash 150 plus really deadly Cavalry Squadrons in wedge is just stupid! But use fast gallop and cavalry wedge in the mean streets of Paris and you probably get head taken off by a washing line so its more even fighting in towns and woods etc.  

    As you know, Stuart, I'm not really that well read on military history, nor do I have your background in the forces.  I knew Swedish troops of the period were among the best, and if that reputation is reflected in their performance in-game then I'll have to try and hire some Swedish mercenaries in G7.  That said, even Swedish troops would find it hard to take on a bunch of nuns armed with rosary beads, led by a determined Mother Superior.  They are seldom found on the battlefield since in addition to scaring protestant troops, even the Papal Guard prefer to be positioned well away from them in case they spot some minor uniform infringement and decide that military discipline is for wimps.
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    Post by jamesbond007 Sun May 02, 2021 3:18 pm

    Yes Stuart.

    The Austrian proposed treaty is a clear and obvious breech of the Spanish, Austrian treaty. Milan is Spanish. Austria wants France to recognise  it for  Austria. Austria had been pinged by Agema for having forces live off the land in Milan.

    Austria asks for Karl Hapsburg to be recognised as King of Spain. Agema recognises Rodrigo as King of Spain. Austria has been pinged for using the Carlos III title. Claiming his son is King of Spain when he clearly is not is another breech. Rodrigo is accepted as King of Spain by the people and ruling Royal council and this has been the situation for over a year now. Any papal rulings are not accepted in Spain.

    Austria asks for French recognition for Sardinia, Sicily and Naples to be given to the papacy  is a breech. Sardinia fully in Spanish hands, Sicily mainly in Spanish hands. This is a breech.

    Our treaty clearly says “ we can not diplomatically attack each other.” Claiming Spanish lands is a breech. ‘ neither side  can diplomatically, economically or militarily attack each other.” Claiming lands that are occupied and run by Spain is a clear breech of the above.

    So the treaty as it stands will never be acceptable. Unless Austria wants to break its treaty with Spain and see its honour reach zero.
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    Post by Papa Clement Sun May 02, 2021 4:22 pm

    jamesbond007 wrote:So the treaty as it stands will never be acceptable. Unless Austria wants to break its treaty with Spain and see its honour reach zero.

    Even if the treaty between Austria and Roderigo is held by Agema to be valid (and I don't see how it can be) ...

    1. Until France signs the peace terms (or is compelled to sign them), no breach can have occurred since nothing is signed.  The terms could be considered by Roderigo as clear indication of how Austria sees him in relation to others, but that should be no surprise.

    2. Even if (having signed the terms) Roderigo cries "breach of treaty", then is pointing out a breach of treaty not a diplomatic attack on Austria and therefore putting Roderigo in breach of that treaty?  If the clauses are as you have stated, then clearly, yes.  Being much higher up the honour table, Austria can afford to lose a few points of honour, whereas Roderigo cannot.  Although ...

    3. I doubt Austria will lose any honour at all.  In G7 the infamous treaty of Scotland was broken repeatedly by the letter and in the spirit by Spain, yet Spanish honour remained high, much to my annoyance.  My conclusion is that the Spanish nobility considered the reasons for breaching the treaty justifiable so were not bothered.  Oddly now the treaty is no longer in force, Spain is at great pains to avoid even the slightest hint of doing anything which could upset England, even to the point of trying to protect the bishop of London on Las Palmas; such out of character behaviour is quite disconcerting for everyone (not least the bishop), but is considered on the G7 thread.  In the case of Austria (G10), it is inconceivable that any Emperor would betray his son in favour of a renegade usurper, betray the church he is fighting for, betray the states of the HRE who are fighting with him, etc.  And if he did his honour would probably go up, especially if the trigger for that is the resolution of a war with France and the restoration of the Catholic Church throughout France.

    Honour is not a zero-sum equation whereby if one player gains honour another must lose it.  There are many factors impacting upon it which are hidden from players.

    As I have written many times, one problem Roderigo has is that he has made contradictory agreements with different players as an attempt to play them off against each other.  Deceit is not clever, it merely destroys trust and consequently reputations.  At some point these agreements will come into conflict with each other and players will have to choose whether they prefer to keep their agreements with those nations who matter, or a usurper who as soon as they sign something with him goes off and signs something else with their enemy behind their back.  I know what I would do in such a situation, but thankfully I had the sense not to sign anything with Roderigo.  Other players will make their own choices without my help.  After all, the Papacy simply states its position; it does not tell others what to do, contrary to how some have misrepresented events.
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    Post by jamesbond007 Sun May 02, 2021 5:29 pm

    Hi Papa,

    Allow me to correct your inaccurate post. Once again.

    Firstly. After basically calling me a liar on the Rodrigo character not being created by me but a previous player. After confirmation from a third party. J Flower that i was correct and you incorrect again. A decent fellow would have apologised. You sadly didn't.

    point 1. By posting a proposed treaty you are endorsing it. A clear breech of treaty by Austria.

    Point 2. Agema ruling council is already ruling on treaty breeches between Austria and Spain. Hence the three position drop in honour by Austria this turn.

    Point 3. Spain has never sent or proposed a treaty with the papacy. Spain thinks the Rome pope is suffering from madness in game. Hence the move to Pope Leo.

    Another correction. ( yawn). The treaty between Rodrigo and Austria is perfectly legal and accepted by Agema and Richard. As is all Spain's treaties.

    Finally in games of lgdr i have never known most of the catholic world changing popes, due to the persevered poor play from the pope. Does anyone recall this happening before.?

    Good Evening guys.


    Last edited by jamesbond007 on Sun May 02, 2021 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : noticed a correction.)
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    Post by Papa Clement Sun May 02, 2021 6:30 pm

    jamesbond007 wrote:Hi Papa,

    Allow me to correct your inaccurate post. Once again.

    Firstly. After basically calling me a liar on the Rodrigo character not being created by me but a previous player. After confirmation from a third party. J Flower that i was correct and you incorrect again. A decent fellow would have apologised. You sadly didn't.

    Since I do not have information from long before I joined, I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of a name on the sheets of Spain.  However, as I mentioned, I am prepared to accept JFlower's recollection that 'Roderigo' did previously appear in G10, as a made up character by a previous player.  However, there is still some uncertainty as to precisely what his story was, including whether he was 'kinged' (to use your grammatically ugly phrase).  If he was crowned then he either abdicated (which is only done in favour of another, namely the candidate acceptable to the Pope after the process of the judgement) or renounced his 'claim' (in which case he cannot then come back and be made 'king' again).  What I do know is that he was not in the picture when the judgement was made (at that point Cardinal P was taking orders from the Papacy and the consensus within Spain was that the nobles preferred a Hapsburg candidate over a Bourbon candidate by 20:1.  At no point was 'Roderigo' mentioned by anyone in Spain, nor by any other player who made submissions for the Judgement.   It was some months after this when you joined, and it was at this point that his character and claims appeared, including forged titles which you 'found' to embellish the back story to suit your purposes.  Thus the substantive point that the character of 'Roderigo' and the fabricated 'claim' to the crown of Spain was, in my opinion, your own invention.

    To the best of my knowledge said character does not appear in any other game of LGDR nor in real history in the way you have chosen to use him whereas Karl Hapsburg is a son of Emperor Leopold, both historically and in every game of LGDR.


    jamesbond007 wrote:point 1. By posting a proposed treaty you are endorsing it. A clear breech of treaty by Austria.

    A proposed treaty can be nothing more of a statement of intent if it looks as though it would place the player in breach of something else he has signed.


    jamesbond007 wrote:Point 2. Agema ruling council is already ruling on treaty breeches between Austria and Spain. Hence the three position drop in honour by Austria this turn.

    I don't know what Austria's honour score was last turn or this turn, and I very much doubt you do.  If you think you understand how the honour system works then clearly you must be the only player in the game who has such an understanding.  Since you're not top of the table then either honour is not that important to you or I guess you don't understand it at all.  My suspicion is the latter.


    jamesbond007 wrote:Point 3. Spain has never sent or proposed a treaty with the papacy. Spain thinks the Rome pope is suffering from madness in game. Hence the move to Pope Leo.  
    Finally in games of lgdr i have never known most of the catholic world changing popes, due to the persevered poor play from the pope. Does anyone recall this happening before.?

    You set up a fantasy character, dressed him up and with some help from your chums pretend he has authority when he has none.  To the best of my knowledge it has not happened before because no player has been stupid enough to waste real world money to order it.  No doubt in another game some equally obsessed player will crown himself King of the Moon and move his treasury there to stop it getting pinched.  Will all other players look up into the sky at night and bow down to him?  I somehow doubt it.

    One lesson from all the factions set up in G7 is that once you start down the road of setting up factions, you have to keep spending money on them to keep them alive.  It becomes awfully complicated for everyone to keep up with them, especially those who set them up in the first place.  And guess what ... they don't go away, they just keep hanging around as a drain on your game turn fees.  So don't let me stop you running a 2nd treasury for your fantasy position, a 2nd lot of government running costs, additional charges each time someone writes a letter, swallowing up your diplomatic orders as you try to remember what he said about a particular theological point several turns ago.  The more you use your fantasy character, the more of a drain he will be.  I'm sure you've done more sensible players a great service - instead of dealing with the Austrian invasion of France, poor King Louis (who must be poor now his treasury has been captured) was stuck in a cathedral telling your fantasy character his views on religion, and all he received in return was a lecture from some of his own bishops telling him he was wrong.  Didn't cost me a penny, but it hastened the demise of France by a few months and allowed Sweden to take his treasury.  So do please continue to indulge this fantasy - by increasing your game turn spend you are doing us all a huge favour.
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    Post by jamesbond007 Sun May 02, 2021 6:39 pm

    Papa,

    Game turn fees are not a problem. Thanks for asking. If you are finding the fees hard, i would gladly lend you some.? It would be a shame to see someone with your knowledge drop.

    Thanks for the chat enjoyed it. Perhaps we can do it again next weekend.?
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    Post by Hapsburg Sun May 02, 2021 6:51 pm

    A lively discussion but perhaps not a ringing endorsement that will encourage new players to join the game. We all have our points of view and bias but I have great respect for Richard having played the game continuously since 1989, apart from a break in 2015; and have complete faith in his impartiality.

    “While the Emperor has already offered to give Flanders to the UDP so is clearly not that bothered by Flanders”.

    The above quote from Stuart places me in a difficult position because to confirm or deny would be diplomacy on the forum! So I can only respond in game.
    So, the quoted “fact” is either propaganda or is true, but either way the comment should never have been made in a forum post.

    Cheers
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    Post by Stuart Bailey Sun May 02, 2021 8:22 pm

    Hapsburg wrote:A lively discussion but perhaps not a ringing endorsement that will encourage new players to join the game. We all have our points of view and bias but I have great respect for Richard having played the game continuously since 1989, apart from a break in 2015; and have complete faith in his impartiality.

    “While the Emperor has already offered to give Flanders to the UDP so is clearly not that bothered by Flanders”.

    The above quote from Stuart places me in a difficult position because to confirm or deny would be diplomacy on the forum! So I can only respond in game.
    So, the quoted “fact” is either propaganda or is true, but either way the comment should never have been made in a forum post.

    Cheers


    I am very sorry if anyone thinks my comment crossed the line into diplomacy on the forum. Thought the above was just common knowledge to the man in the street or on the dock side but if in error I apologise.

    In case anyone is in any doubt it should be noted that the French Corsairs are a really minor position and have no more knowledge of what terms the French Government will or will not accept than anyone else.
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    Post by Hapsburg Mon May 03, 2021 9:13 pm

    Thanks to Stuart whose rely is appreciated.

    For me the principle is if an event, specific detail or other fact is reported by Agema in the game newspaper it can be repeated in a forum post. Whereas character statements and speeches in the newspaper can be factual, opinion or propaganda or more likely a mixture of all three.

    The same principle applies to a Court ruling; a player will need to publish the details in the newspaper before anything can be divulged in a forum post. The full text of a ruling could be published in the newspaper by either party if permitted by Agema.

    Cheers
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    Post by J Flower Fri May 21, 2021 12:58 pm

    Hopefully the debate on in game diplomacy can be left behind us for a while. Opinions will obviously differ from person to person as to what can, should, or can't & should not be discussed.


    On a different tangent, With us all awaiting the December Income round. Do some of you feel that the financial purse strings in this version of LGDR have been drawn a bit tighter. Or am I alone in feeling that way.

    Financial investments in trade don't seem in my humble opinion to be reaping the same rewards.
    It could of course simply be that the game is still in its infancy & those investment will bring in better returns as time goes on.

    Prospectors seem to have a much lower chance of success as well. Cutting off another source of income. All of those I have sent out so far have died of unnatural causes. Rock falls, Lions & poisonous gases to name but a few. Seems the die roll was against me.
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    Post by count-de-monet Fri May 21, 2021 2:10 pm

    Jason - do you really want me to answer your question ? Very Happy - aware that G10 is about the luckiest I have got with the LGDR finances !

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    Post by Marshal Bombast Fri May 21, 2021 6:01 pm

    J Flower wrote:On a different tangent, With us all awaiting the December Income round. Do some of you feel that the financial purse strings in this version of LGDR have been drawn a bit tighter. Or am I alone in feeling that way.

    Financial investments in trade don't seem in my humble opinion to be reaping the same rewards.
    It could of course simply be that the game is still  in its infancy & those investment will bring in better returns as time goes on.

    Prospectors seem to have a much lower chance of success as well. Cutting off another source of income. All of those I have sent out so far have died of unnatural causes. Rock falls, Lions & poisonous gases to name but a few. Seems the die roll was against me.

    From past games I've managed to get a 50% return on some investments (with recruits) made in a given year, might have been lucky with what I did but G10 seems to be hitting 33% but with a lot less recruits used so probably my fault.

    Every time I think oh I'll send some prospectors out I realise it's winter and they probably won't find much. So wondering what prospecting school graduates would do.

    Is it wrong to have a spreadsheet to calculate your income and expenditure and how well your investments are doing and have your spending orders planned planned for a year ahead?

    @Count inspired by Japan's success Peter opened an Academy of Revenues to see what could be done with grain instead of rice...
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    Post by Stuart Bailey Fri May 21, 2021 7:01 pm

    In terms of percentage increase over starting income the Corsairs have done great but when income is no more than a small estate and your trade income is equal to a part share in a fishing boat and a couple of coastal traders that is not that hard.

    But I like to think my unique approach to marketing and getting the cheapest goods for customers may have played a part.

    However, I really do not understand how anyone makes any money from pure privateering as the overheads are killing and the returns on prizes dire. Its enough to make a man turn to drink and religion. Oh I seem to have done both of that.

    But I do suspect that in terms of the over all game the amount of cash may be a lot less than some others and famines which always seem to be really bad economic use seem to be a lot more common.

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