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War Ship Design

Stuart Bailey: Emperor of Europe; Number of posts : 2568
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Post n°1

War Ship Design

by Stuart Bailey Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:31 am

Is this the most expensive class of Warship built to date in a game of Glori?

- 120 Gunner drill bored brass 42 pounders, improved gun sights, naval flintlock gun mechanisms, screw thread elevators, vauban gun carriages, stable ship design, slanted sturns, state rooms, second powder rooms, improved coppering, helm indicators, improved sail and rigging, boomkins, silken sails, carronades, marines with grenadoes, graduate officers, priest and physician. Optional extra's inc ebony dance floors which can be taken up and put down, works of art, solid silver wine coolers and full dinner services for Admiral/Captains state rooms.

The yard which built and designed these ships hope to obtain export orders from Nations which want a new flag ship and esp from the Czar as it would seem to be perfect design for Russian Naval Needs.......looks really good in Port but you would not want to take it too sea in case the gold leaf got chipped or stained by salt water.

As a matter of interest what do more practical types think are best value naval upgrades and what are not so special?

Marshal Bombast

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Post n°2

Re: War Ship Design

by Marshal Bombast Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:31 am

Improvements for me depend on the nature and role for the ship, and given most games I've played I've not generally had a need for a long range fleet.

Long range patrols: Improved coppering and sail upgrades. Not so much upgraded cannon as adds to weight when they need speed and mobility.
SOL: Stable ship design, second powder rooms, upgraded cannons, long barrel cannons, carronades, flintlock mechanisms, dispart gun barrel aimers and all the sail upgrades.
Crusiers start with long range patrols and then most of SOL upgrades.
Trade: Increased speed so improved rigging etc. Not so much anything that increases weight and reduces carrying capacity.

War vessels: Improved signalling, scurvy cure etc

Longer term iron water tanks.

Not so worried about improved silken sails as hard to see how they could easily be repaired at sea.

Hmm need more academies me thinks.

Think brass 48 pdrs would add to the cost (The Miscellany pg 26). Also musketoons which add to cost of ship though an inefficient extra as you have carronades. Think I'll order 12 each year and name them all the same, think you'll guess why Very Happy

Very Happy

J Flower: Emperor; Number of posts : 1239
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Post n°3

Re: War Ship Design

by J Flower Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:05 am

The G7 Russian Navy will be in touch Mr Bailey .

Can you confirm there are no Icebergs between Cadiz & St Petersburg, just want to be on the safe side

Stuart Bailey: Emperor of Europe; Number of posts : 2568
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Post n°4

Re: War Ship Design

by Stuart Bailey Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:46 pm

J Flower wrote:The G7 Russian Navy will be in touch Mr Bailey .

Can you confirm there are no Icebergs between Cadiz & St Petersburg, just want to be on the safe side

You want to take one of my rather large works of Naval art:

- Right up the Gulf of Finland with its rocks, shallows, ice and sandbanks!?

- Through the narrows by Kotlin Island with get more of the above and a bloody great rock of an Island to avoid right in the middle of the clearway !?

- Then though a bog via a rather narrow and bendy river which needs continual work by dredgers and icebreakers dredgers just to keep clear for barges and small merchants ships.

- Too finally expose its gold leaf to Russian winters for 8 months of the year? Sad

Sad

J Flower: Emperor; Number of posts : 1239
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Post n°5

Re: War Ship Design

by J Flower Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:53 am

Let me think about it

Last edited by J Flower on Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:54 am; edited 1 time in total

J Flower: Emperor; Number of posts : 1239
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Post n°6

Re: War Ship Design

by J Flower Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:53 am

Stuart Bailey wrote:

J Flower wrote:The G7 Russian Navy will be in touch Mr Bailey .

Can you confirm there are no Icebergs between Cadiz & St Petersburg, just want to be on the safe side

You want to take one of my rather large works of Naval art:

- Right up the Gulf of Finland with its rocks, shallows, ice and sandbanks!?

- Through the narrows by Kotlin Island with get more of the above and a bloody great rock of an Island to avoid right in the middle of the clearway !?

- Then though a bog via a rather narrow and bendy river which needs continual work by dredgers and icebreakers dredgers just to keep clear for barges and small merchants ships.

- Too finally expose its gold leaf to Russian winters for 8 months of the year?

Well, Ummmm Yes!

Stuart Bailey: Emperor of Europe; Number of posts : 2568
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Post n°7

Re: War Ship Design

by Stuart Bailey Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:29 pm

J Flower wrote:

Stuart Bailey wrote:

J Flower wrote:The G7 Russian Navy will be in touch Mr Bailey .

Can you confirm there are no Icebergs between Cadiz & St Petersburg, just want to be on the safe side

You want to take one of my rather large works of Naval art:

- Right up the Gulf of Finland with its rocks, shallows, ice and sandbanks!?

- Through the narrows by Kotlin Island with get more of the above and a bloody great rock of an Island to avoid right in the middle of the clearway !?

- Then though a bog via a rather narrow and bendy river which needs continual work by dredgers and icebreakers dredgers just to keep clear for barges and small merchants ships.

- Too finally expose its gold leaf to Russian winters for 8 months of the year?

Clearlythe Czar is in need of some nice deep warm water ports which are not miles up some river which is full of ice for half the year.

In scrabble the Russians seem most happy viewing and taking photo's of their ships either in Sevastpool with the sun reflecting off the nice warm waters of the Black Sea or in the exotic east at Port Arthur.

The Baltic fogs of St Petersburg is were they go to sink submarines which then never come up again.

Perhaps new West African port then? Ok the crews will probably all die of yellow fever but the ships should look nice in the Tropical sun.
Well, Ummmm Yes!

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Post n°8

Re: War Ship Design

by Hapsburg Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:57 pm

As Spain in G3 I kept it simple and went for marines, upgraded guns and large lineships, which sailed all the way to Formosa and Japan without incident.

Given Russia's naval troubles, Austria should concentrate on land based units lol

J Flower: Emperor; Number of posts : 1239
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Post n°9

Re: War Ship Design

by J Flower Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:51 am

Would like to point out Russia is not having Naval troubles.

It is merely suffering from a few technical issues with regards keeping its ships afloat.

Should be noted that in G7 A Russian Flotilla, has managed to get from the Baltic to Accra in one piece , with out getting Lost , or getting sick, This could be a defining moment for Russian Naval players.

Bit confused, you can actually put guns on Ships, will have to look in the Rule book is it a technology breakthrough!

"We Sink Ships"

Stuart Bailey: Emperor of Europe; Number of posts : 2568
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Post n°10

Re: War Ship Design

by Stuart Bailey Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:15 pm

J Flower wrote:Would like to point out Russia is not having Naval troubles.

It is merely suffering from a few technical issues with regards keeping its ships afloat.

Should be noted that in G7 A Russian Flotilla, has managed to get from the Baltic to Accra in one piece , with out getting Lost , or getting sick, This could be a defining moment for Russian Naval players.

Bit confused, you can actually put guns on Ships, will have to look in the Rule book is it a technology breakthrough!

"We Sink Ships"

I do wonder if the game reflect's history in that many ship losses were not down to the build quality of ships but was actually caused by poor navigation so if you want to cut down on losses are trained crews and better charts more important than many other Naval improvement? This comment from a person who ran aground in Poole Harbour and put a top sailed schooner 10 degrees off course in Oslo!

Exception should be coppering which saved many ships from the dreaded marine worm in tropical waters. Should also make ships 2 or 3 knotts quicker but have not noticed any in Game improvement for £4,000 a ship apart from a lot of happy copper miners in Sweden and Chile.

Other "improvement" which baffles me is extra long cannon. This "improvement" is based on a C17 English ballistic's theory which turned out to be totally wrong so it should be a total waste of time and money. Though it did give benefits to the English who used extra long cannon as bow and stern chasers in the Anglo-Dutch wars. On the 3rd Day of the Four Day Battle in particular the extra long stern guns of the defeated English kept the Dutch pursuit at bay and badly damaged the fastest Dutch ships who tried to close the gap.

Though it should be noted that English ships of this period were designed to be able to point more guns to the rear than both earlier and later ships and their "extra long" guns were very carefully cast and had the best gun crews.

Anyone used "extra long" guns and did they have any effect?

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J Flower: Emperor; Number of posts : 1239
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Post n°11

Re: War Ship Design

by J Flower Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:37 pm

Russia G7 has developed them & has ships fitted with Long Cannon , As yet no reports of sinking ships faster when equipped with these. Will keep you posted.

Something I have noticed in Games is the apparent lack of Galleys & them being used in fleet actions. I think historically in the GNW both Swedes & Russians used them as a coastal fleet, launching raids on each other with the crews. Such tactics could probably be use din the Med , Caspian & Black Seas.

Its not in the tech breakthroughs ( yet?) the also Swedes developed a carriage for the gun(s) mounted on the Galleys that enabled them to be removed from the Galley & used to support on land . I wonder if Marines can be equipped with battalion gun sections.

Stuart Bailey: Emperor of Europe; Number of posts : 2568
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Post n°12

Re: War Ship Design

by Stuart Bailey Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:33 pm

J Flower wrote:Russia G7 has developed them & has ships fitted with Long Cannon , As yet no reports of sinking ships faster when equipped with these. Will keep you posted.

Something I have noticed in Games is the apparent lack of Galleys & them being used in fleet actions. I think historically in the GNW both Swedes & Russians used them as a coastal fleet, launching raids on each other with the crews. Such tactics could probably be use din the Med , Caspian & Black Seas.

Its not in the tech breakthroughs ( yet?) the also Swedes developed a carriage for the gun(s) mounted on the Galleys that enabled them to be removed from the Galley & used to support on land . I wonder if Marines can be equipped with battalion gun sections.

Historic Venetian, Turkish and other later galley's in the Med carried some very large up to 64 lb cannon which could be landed and used as siege guns as well as a lots of lighter guns which could be used in the attack and defence of ports and other coastal positions.

Even when used as no more than a glorified tug to pull damaged ships out of action and back into harbour have found all oared ships (Galleys, large Galleys and Xebec) to be a total liability in a fleet action.

However, I do think they work a lot better if you think of them as marines/sea mobile Army Units. Since if you are an Ottoman Commander trying to reduce a Venetian Port Fortress or a Russian Commander trying to reduce say Riga and suddenly 10 large galley's slip into the Port and the crew basically abandon ship to reinforce the defenders with with 2500 marines and sixty 6 pounder cannon plus swivel guns manned by the rest of the crew it can totally spoil your day.

Depending on how they are armed and equiped such "marine" forces on land can vary in effect. English Marines at Acre (rather late I know) as well as manning captured French cannon used in the defence provided sharp shooters to help the defence who seem to have been as effective as light infantry in knocking over French gunners, engineers and officiers. While Venetian and Turkish marines were armed to the teeth for close in Street fighting and were fully the equal of war band foot. While crews from Knights of Saint John Galley's should probably be considered elite tribal foot for fighting in breaches/streets.

As well as raiding/rapid reinforcement think Galleys can also be used to advantage on large rivers like the Rhine, Danube, Don, Volga etc. Just lash them up and hay presto a bridge. Ok Russians then move their really heavy siege guns across and it sinks under the weight but just recall the mottoo "we sink ships" and use them as the foundation to sink more on top for your new mole/bridge. If they use Cossack rather than normal Serf crews they may even be able to swim to the river bank.

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Marshal Bombast

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Post n°13

Re: War Ship Design

by Marshal Bombast Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:45 pm

J Flower wrote:Russia G7 has developed them & has ships fitted with Long Cannon , As yet no reports of sinking ships faster when equipped with these. Will keep you posted.

Something I have noticed in Games is the apparent lack of Galleys & them being used in fleet actions. I think historically in the GNW both Swedes & Russians used them as a coastal fleet, launching raids on each other with the crews. Such tactics could probably be use din the Med , Caspian & Black Seas.

Its not in the tech breakthroughs ( yet?) the also Swedes developed a carriage for the gun(s) mounted on the Galleys that enabled them to be removed from the Galley & used to support on land . I wonder if Marines can be equipped with battalion gun sections.

Peter used the galleys to support raiding down river around Taganrog and to support coastal raids on Swedish mainland from St Petersburg. Wasn't really a fleet action in Trafalgar type scenario. Also the wood Peter used wasn't that suitable for long term survival of the ships etc and rotted quicker than most.

Defoe's Illuminations pg 12 has section for marine/mountain gun batteries which might help.

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J Flower: Emperor; Number of posts : 1239
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Post n°14

Re: War Ship Design

by J Flower Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:08 am

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Sweden had 2 Navies, one was for the High Seas the other for coastal waters & contained smaller vessels & Galleys.

The fact that the Russians in the rush to build up the fleet used unseasoned wood & a lot of it was soft wood as well , did mean that the durability of the Ships was limited.

Do Marines actually count as Elite automatically ? Given their modern day status it could be possible. Or do the only the Marines on ships with "Elite" crews count also as Elite?

Thank you for the pointer on the Marine artillery had forgotten about that, can think about raising a Mountain Gun battery for my Dutch Mountain Regiment in G10

Marshal Bombast

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Post n°15

Re: War Ship Design

by Marshal Bombast Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:57 pm

J Flower wrote:I seem to remember reading somewhere that Sweden had 2 Navies, one was for the High Seas the other for coastal waters & contained smaller vessels & Galleys.

Think you're right. The coastal fleet was due to the Baltic being so calm and shipping often lost wind in their sails, so galleys worked well with oars as well as sail. Similar reason for Peter to have smaller ships in Baltic which regularly out manoeuvred large ships by keeping close to the coast and supporting coastal raids. Often using the coast to try to escape the larger ships that were trying to pin them down.

J Flower wrote:Do Marines actually count as Elite automatically ? Given their modern day status it could be possible. Or do the only the Marines on ships with "Elite" crews count also as Elite?

I suspect Richard would use the same as the crew to make it simpler to work out - unless you had a marine battalion being carried at a different level e.g. elite marines on an ordinary SOL. Similar to Richard using a single cannon calibre on a broadside as he said a mixed broadside would be a nightmare to calculate.

J Flower wrote:Thank you for the pointer on the Marine artillery had forgotten about that, can think about raising a Mountain Gun battery for my Dutch Mountain Regiment in G10

Could go on joint manoeuvres with the Danes on Sky Mountain. Don't forget your skis.

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Post n°16

Re: War Ship Design

by Stuart Bailey Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:11 am

In the main naval engagements of the Great Northern War the main user of Galleys seems to have been the Russians rather than the Swedes:

Gangut - 100 Russian Galleys v 9 Swedish sailing ships (mostly small as total crews only 950)

Ezel - 3 Swedish Ships of the Line v 7 Russian Sailing ships

Grengam - 8 Swedish sailing ships v 61 Russian Galleys 29 other boats.

Russian Galley fleet was used for extensive raiding of Swedish Coastal towns which being mostly timber burnt really well. A campaign being somewhat copied by the French in G10. What is very noticeable about the above engagements is how they were effected by ships running aground and loss of wind which allowed Galleys to swamp their disadvantaged opponents.

At Gangut all 9 Swedes captured after wind dropped while various Russian Galleys ran aground while at Grengam 4 of the 8 Swedes ran aground and were captured by boarding. The Swedes did destroy 45 or the 61 Galleys but as Russian losses we reported as only 82 dead and 246 wounded I am forced to conclude that either by 1720 the Russian Navy had learnt how to swim or most of battle was on a sandbank in a couple of feet of water with abandoned galleys getting wrecked by cannon of the Swedish Flagship the Pommern etc while they crews boarded the grounded Swedish craft.

The major battle of the Great Northern War - Dynekilen 8 July 1716 involved no Galleys and was between a Danish-Norwegian Squadron of only 7 Ships and a Swedish Fleet of 15 warships and 29 Transports which had landed a Swedish Invasion Army in Norway.

I assume that the Danish-Norwegian ships were a lot stronger than the Swedes since in the "Battle of the Nile" of the Great Northern War they ignored musket fire from the land and silenced a 12 pounder battery on a Island in the fjord to sail into Dynekilen fjorf and attack the ships of the invaders. With 11 Warships and 19 transports captured and another 10 transports destroyed.

Assume if Swedes unlike the Russians who used them a lot had made much use of Galleys they would have been used in the invasion of Norway....handy to get up Fjord's etc.

Ardagor: Prince; Number of posts : 427
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Post n°17

Re: War Ship Design

by Ardagor Sun Mar 28, 2021 11:18 am

The forces in the Dynekilen battle was as follows

The Norwegian force (most of the Danish Navy was Norwegians and in this case all of it)

Hjelperen (Cavalry galley, 46 guns, the flagship), very big, top heavy and cumbersome. All the big guns had to be put in the bottom of the ship when being moved over anything resembling rough water. Very difficult to move, in particular in adverse condition such as under fire etc but it did shine at Dynekilen.

Arca Noæ (cavalry galley, 33 guns) the standard size of this type of vessel.

Hvide Ørn (frigate, 30 guns)

Vindhunden (frigate, 16 guns)

Charlotte Amalia (galley, 7 guns)

Louisa (galley, 7 guns)

Prins Christian (galley, 7 guns)

The galleys was there to tow the cavalry galleys into position.

Swedish Fleet

Stenbocken (cavalry galley, 24 guns)

Wreden (galley, 21 guns including two 36 pounders, the largest galley in the Swedish Navy and the Flagship

Proserpina (galley, 14 guns)

Ulysses (galley, 6 guns)

Lucretia (galley, 13 guns)

Hecla (galley, 13 guns)

Achilles (galley, 5 guns)

Pollux (galley, 5 guns)

Hector (galley, 5 guns)

Castor (galley, 5 guns)

Bjørn (galley)

Svarte Måren (galley)

Skølpadden (galley)

Koster (galley)

The Swediah force was not expecting an attack and only Stenbocken and the batteries could offer much resistance. When these was dealt with the battle as more or less over.

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Stuart Bailey: Emperor of Europe; Number of posts : 2568
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Post n°18

Re: War Ship Design

by Stuart Bailey Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:56 pm

Ardagor wrote:The forces in the Dynekilen battle was as follows

The Norwegian force (most of the Danish Navy was Norwegians and in this case all of it)

Hjelperen (Cavalry galley, 46 guns, the flagship), very big, top heavy and cumbersome. All the big guns had to be put in the bottom of the ship when being moved over anything resembling rough water. Very difficult to move, in particular in adverse condition such as under fire etc but it did shine at Dynekilen.

Arca Noæ (cavalry galley, 33 guns) the standard size of this type of vessel.

Hvide Ørn (frigate, 30 guns)

Vindhunden (frigate, 16 guns)

Charlotte Amalia (galley, 7 guns)

Louisa (galley, 7 guns)

Prins Christian (galley, 7 guns)

The galleys was there to tow the cavalry galleys into position.

Swedish Fleet

Stenbocken (cavalry galley, 24 guns)

Wreden (galley, 21 guns including two 36 pounders, the largest galley in the Swedish Navy and the Flagship

Proserpina (galley, 14 guns)

Ulysses (galley, 6 guns)

Lucretia (galley, 13 guns)

Hecla (galley, 13 guns)

Achilles (galley, 5 guns)

Pollux (galley, 5 guns)

Hector (galley, 5 guns)

Castor (galley, 5 guns)

Bjørn (galley)

Svarte Måren (galley)

Skølpadden (galley)

Koster (galley)

The Swediah force was not expecting an attack and only Stenbocken and the batteries could offer much resistance. When these was dealt with the battle as more or less over.

Wow at long last some info on the mystery of the Cavalry Galley (which has caused so much bafflement amongst Glori players) and how they were used.......so basically a floating Coastal defence barge you have too tow into position?

Looking at picture of of Grengam by the Russian Artist Alexey Zubow and Gangut from the Illustrated London News (so may be suspect) the Swedes are shown as classic sailing ships and the Russian Galleys look very much like a Galley from the Med.

Was this the case for Swedish and Norwegian galleys - or were they more like Kidds famous Adventure Galley? Basically sailing ships with added sweeps for when becalmed with no wind. A fairly common experience in the Baltic if my experience of sailing in these waters is anything to go by (Mind you if your home waters are the Bristol Channal and the Western Approaches most of the world other than Cape Horn and the roaring 40's are lacking wind)

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Post n°19

Re: War Ship Design

by Ardagor Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:27 pm

The galley in the Danish Norwegian Navy was first seen around 1550-60. Hiring French and Scottish shipbuilders. In 1663 a Norwegian man, Cort Adeler started a shipyard for building galleys for the navy. He had served in the Venezian navy against the Turks and fell in love with the galley. So they was similar to mediterranean vessels at the time.

The idea behind the cavalry galley was simple, bringing the firepower of a SOL into waters to shallow or narrow for a SOL to go. Flatbottom, no keel etc making it shallow draught but extremely vulnerable in adverse weather. Most had a bit more of such features to make it less vulnerable but for instance Hjelperen in Dynekilen was as barebones as you could get it.

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Post n°20

Re: War Ship Design

by J Flower Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:31 pm

Thankyou Ardagor, at last information on the elusive Cavalry Galley, just a couple of quick questions,

Were they only able to be towed into position?
or
Could they like a True Galley be rowed/Sailed?

Is it fair to say it is a glorified Floating Battery?

G7 Russia has actually got a couple on the Naval Lists, just it being G7 & especially it being the Russian Navy in G7 very wary of letting them out of dry dock.

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Post n°21

Re: War Ship Design

by Ardagor Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:15 pm

They usually had some sort of rig and sail but it could not be to much. Shallow draught and lots of heavy guns means very top heavy and to much sail and a strong gust of wind and ops it has capzised.

So it could move by sail, very slowly. No oars. In practise it would need a galley to tow it when going where it was supposed to be.

Tow it into position, anchor it securely and start shooting. All under fire of course, the enemy can most likely see what you are doing and he knows what will happen when you are ready.

So, yes it was a mobile floating battery. very useful under the right circumstances.

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Post n°22

Re: War Ship Design

by Stuart Bailey Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:10 pm

Guess the next question is - has anyone playing one of the Baltic Powers either raised a Cavalry Galley or have one in their start list?

And how quickly can you move them from location too location? Wide, heavy, flat bottomed barges seem like a lot of hard work to move.

Seems perfect for the Russian Navy in Glori - lots of fire power, not able to leave the Baltic or even harbour on its own and if run aground on the right sand bank it can not sink or turn over.

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Post n°23

Re: War Ship Design

by J Flower Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:54 pm

ST. PETERSBURG;2 cavalry galleys!

Yes they are in Game7! As of yet they haven't moved from their moorings, which is probably why they are still afloat.

Had to raise them rather than having them originally on the listing, more to see what they can do rather than for any tactical purposes.

Currently planning to use them as a floating battery to help to defend the port, no plans to let them out of sight of the shoreline.

They will start drilling in the coming months once the ice has melted, so the possibility of another naval mishap looms in G7.

Really need the Japanese Navy in G10 to get going, to take the focus off the Russian Admiralty in G7

"We Sink Ships"

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Post n°24

Re: War Ship Design

by Ardagor Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:57 pm

The Cavalry galley is called a stykkpram in Norwegian which directly translate as "gun/cannon barge".

As for the gunboats there was 2 types at this time

Kanonjolle with One 24 pdr in the stern, oar and sail, about 14 meter long and 23 man crew.

Kanonsjalupp One 24 pdr in stern and one in bow + some smaller guns, oar and sail, about 21 meters long and 63 man crew.

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Post n°25

Re: War Ship Design

by Stuart Bailey Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:57 pm

Ardagor wrote:The Cavalry galley is called a stykkpram in Norwegian which directly translate as "gun/cannon barge".

As for the gunboats there was 2 types at this time

Kanonjolle with One 24 pdr in the stern, oar and sail, about 14 meter long and 23 man crew.

Kanonsjalupp One 24 pdr in stern and one in bow + some smaller guns, oar and sail, about 21 meters long and 63 man crew.

In a game were the sea's are dominated by ships based on Western European style sail-of-line battleships and frigates think trying to use these small in-shore war ships as they were historically is probably not going to work very well.

But as the game and players becomes more and more influenced by concerns about how to supply their forces with food and gunpowder (or not!) and the most easy way to move supplies of grain/gunpowder is by water so I think the ability to control rivers like the Rhine, Danube, Volga etc and the great Lakes could become a very important factor to many positions esp those around the Baltic and in Eastern Europe and give a real role for small coastal and river fleets/Squadrons.

Look forward to seeing Cavalry Galleys and Gunboats in action and perhaps some new expressions for such forces:

Russian in-shore & river navy - "We run ships aground"

Austrian Navy - Instead of "we have no ships" they could have "Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream"

While the Elector of Saxony in G10 builds a large boating lake in Dresden, rips out the cannon to on his ships to replace them with Musicans and a good chef/kitchens so he and his Lady friends can get perfect view of the fireworks bursting over the water.

Mock not the boating lake as an aide to the defences of a city! One of my characters as ringed one of his cities with landscaped gardens including lakes for boating and fishing even has Swans and Carp in the lakes which might have been a bit over the top and could give the attacker a nice carp supper.

But at the end of the day the attacker with tries to drain my lakes and push approach works through the mud. Or adopt a very narrow approach between the lakes and hacking through the road and right down the barrels of a lot of defensive fire.

Basically Cavalry Galley plus ships with Oars tries to defend blue water port on Coast against a fleet or even a squadron of lineships and its so much drift wood. But for ports like Riga which is 9 miles up a river I can see value to adding one to the garrison. Both to block a Naval advance and to hamper the work of a siege:-

ie Just as you get siege set Cavalry Galley comes out of defences and starts shooting along your siege lines/into your camp. Richard comments that City under siege is still getting supplies by river. So you then send a month to re-position siege guns etc to sink the Cavalry Galley and close the river line and probably another month to move your siege guns back into position. By this time you are now in month 4 of siege needing re-supply and have probably gained sickness levels and siege is starting to slow down. A particular concern around the Baltic and in Eastern Europe where Autumn/Winter sieges are only really pressed on with by fanatics who are not bothered by a little rain and mud and then ice and snow.

Last edited by Stuart Bailey on Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: War Ship Design

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