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The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

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Are you naturally pro or anti French

[ 1 ]
17% [17%] 
[ 1 ]
17% [17%] 
[ 4 ]
66% [66%] 

Total Votes: 6
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Ardagor
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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Ardagor on Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:47 pm

Turn is out, and most interesting it is.
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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Kingmaker on Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:47 pm

yes....... but not for certain generals coffin


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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by J Flower on Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:12 pm

Anyone got a spare Navy they are willing "lend" to Russia. Promise not to let it out into deep water.

Stuart Bailey
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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:49 am

J Flower wrote:Anyone got a spare Navy they are willing "lend" to Russia. Promise not to let it out into deep water.

Considering the history of the Russian Navy in G7 as well as not going sailing in open waters think you also need to promise:

1) Not to go sailing from Oct to March.......to avoid ice and storms.

2) Not to go sailing in tricky shallows such as are found in parts of the West Indies and off the Dutch Coast.

3) Not to fight nasty rough Viking types.

4) Invent sea sickness cure for Sea Sick serfs.

And basically stay moored up in Rega and only fire individual cannon on the Czars birthday etc

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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by J Flower on Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:52 am

Russia is willing to put the Navy into "Dry Dock" to ensure that it stays safe

Have considered asking the Austrians if they can lend Russia some Naval advisor's, they seem to know how to use a rowing boat. Which would increase Russian naval knowledge to a whole new level.

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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Stuart Bailey on Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:27 am

J Flower wrote:Russia is willing to put the Navy into "Dry Dock" to ensure that it stays safe

Have considered asking the Austrians if they can lend Russia some Naval advisor's, they seem to know how to use a rowing boat. Which would increase Russian naval knowledge to a whole new level.


Historic Russian Navy was constructed with a lot of Dutch Help and got its experience on galleys, gunboats (which can be built by Austrian mission) and a lot of small inshore stuff.

Perhaps problem in G7 is a lack of Dutch help?

That or starting the sea sick serfs in Lineships with about 300 different ropes to pull.

I see African sea sick serfs in G10 are starting out with Fishing boats.....seems like a good move to me:D
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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:21 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:

I see African sea sick serfs in G10 are starting out with Fishing boats.....seems like a good move to me:D

Rozwi will only be using our (soon to be learnt) boat building and close to shore sailing knowledge for the purposes of food and trade movement. Only other 'naval' bits that I might use (while in charge of Rozwi) would be river dug-out canoes, though we'd need the appropriate Congo River -type missions to teach us.

It was the Zulu example of them watching, and helping where they could, the construction of the 'English' ship in the 1820s - as they previously had no knowledge of water transport, apart from laying themselves flat on a bed of tied together river grasses and paddling upon calm fresh water - that I thought I'd best pursue a mission to teach us how to use fishing boats.

I thought about just investing in fishing trade, but I reckoned it would just fail.

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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by J Flower on Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:26 am

Maybe start your research development with fishing spears, so the fishermen can stand in the surf & catch fish, or ask for an academy to look into fish tickling, getting into boats can be a dangerous step into the unknown. Once you have discovered fishing spears,the next step could be tying a piece of string with a bent rusty nail onto the end of the spear, you then have to decide if you put a piece of bread or a worm onto the nail as bait.

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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:33 pm

I wonder if the Rozwi should take advise on sailing etc from the founder of the first submarine service in Glory du Roi.......AKA the Royal Prussian Yacht Squadron. Who now seems all set to continue in the same way with the Russian Navy in G7.

Plus in real life when the British Army of the Rhine left Germany why did the Navy refuse to have him on board and left him in Paderborn???????

As for standing in the southern african surf with covered in fish guts and speared and bleeding fish I have one comment to make......................."GREAT WHITE SHARKS".

Perhaps the Rozwi could consider nets and fishing from the bank of lakes and rivers?
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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:20 am

Thanks for the ideas J. Flower and Stuart Bailey, I've made a note of them and you've both given me something to think about.

I can see I'm going to have to open a fishing academy, now. What would such an institute look like though? Given how much the cost and upkeep is, in-game, it'll be one of the most expensive African huts in the game! lol!

Luckily, from a military point, I got away with not having to research stabbing spears - as I've a feeling my troops should historically be armed with throwing, javelin-type spears - and since my in-game enquiry, and use of weaponry declaration, Agema has put it into writing that all of Rozwi's spears are of the stabbing type. I tried to do something similar with the shields, using the Zulu shield with it's furry pom-pom distraction atop the shield's pole as my weapon of choice, but Agema stated that would need to be a academy breakthrough. When I put a fishing academy into studying improved techniques it'll be interesting what they come up with.
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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Jason on Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:05 pm

Don't forget fish traps! Saves people standing around in the water waiting for great whites to nibble at their toes Wink I seem to remember an archaeologist called John Gribble doing research on pre-colonial fish traps in Southern Africa when he worked for the South African Heritage Agency (or something like that)
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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:55 am

Well, I'd best think about a five year plan just for my fishing concerns

July 1701: Improved Fishing Techniques #1 discovered.
January 1702: Improved Fishing Techniques #2 discovered.
January 1703: Improved Fishing Techniques #3 discovered.

I haven't even thought about the tobacco I've got from the Portuguese, and going into the marijuana business (in-game) using the historic Dagga trade.



"Death to the French? No, man. Pass the food, I've got the munchies!"

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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Stuart Bailey on Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:25 am

[quote="Rozwi_Game10"]Well, I'd best think about a five year plan just for my fishing concerns

July 1701: Improved Fishing Techniques #1 discovered.
January 1702: Improved Fishing Techniques #2 discovered.
January 1703: Improved Fishing Techniques #3 discovered.

If the Rozwi are drifting towards the East Coast of Africa I think you should be looking at:

#1 = Canoes (shallow & narrow boats used on inland rivers to fish, hunt, carry people & limited goods..... cost 200 for ten based on Canadian Version shown in rules) AKA Hallowed out Tree Trunk. Note some wood floats better than others.

#2 = Small Dhow......used on rivers & inshore to carry goods, equal to a barge with a sail

#3 = Dhows......the classic lateen rigged trader & fishing boat of the East African Coast.

Given a supply of Ivory, furs, gold panned from rivers etc you can finally join the trade of the Coast.....and someone might even sale you some bows, muskets, and metal etc.

Note many African metal dagger's and spears classed as "throwing" were probably never thrown due the the value of the metal. Or were "thrown" at such close range that after "Spearing" target the owner could grab hold the end of the spear and pull it out. For really long range stuff it is the rock & the fire hardened pointy stick.

It should also be noted that Bantu peoples used metal weapons instead of coins as money and the tribes were serviced by itinerant blacksmiths who spread iron and weapons from north to south. As well as the coastal traders

For close up and personal stuff you seem to have two options:

I) Swords & Spears in the Hausa & Tuareg style.......spreading south and east.......are straight and double edged (swords almost looking like a Knights Broadsword in shape).

or

II) Eastern Coastal Weapons influenced by the Indian Ocean trades and by Indian & Islamic styles.

Think you boast your influence your "Honour Score" you need a Royal Blacksmith-Mage and a "ada" or ceremonial sword representing the power of the ancestors over destiny and the prophectic power of Iron.
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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:45 am

Great info there, Stuart. Thank you for writing it up.

Yes, the canoes and river craft are something that I looked into - both require teaching missions, and the Omani's to teach us dhows were the easiest to reach from the Rozwi starting position (lack of roads do effect African travel greatly).

The metal coinage used for Rozwi, in the game, is the Ashrafi. (this being the Middle Eastern coin in wide-spread circulation?) Obviously game requirements have resulted in a coinage based economy and not the historic methods, which is understandable.

Warfare. I've only read a number of books on the Zulu, focusing on Tribal aspects more so than the early dealings with Europeans, and then the Anglo and Boer issues. From what I've read the wars and battles were very formal affairs, pre-Shaka (though I don't know when the practice I'll describe came into common use), with times and locations being chosen in advance so spectators could come along and watch while the two opposing groups gathered across from each other, sang and danced, threw insults of verbal and ocular variety at each other, then possibly they would start throwing their spindly spears, which the other side would then throw back so it resulted in a volley system like in tennis. The winner would be the side who came off better in the trading insults part, if any injury was sustained from the missile fire this would also be taken into account. I've only, so far, read details on clan warfare in the 'Zulu' geographical area, so don't know how national disputes and wars differed, but the general rule for the loser of the clan battles was paying a sum of cattle to the winner.
Obviously this 'Zulu' practice isn't exactly accurate for my Rozwi position, but finding books on the Rozwi is something I've not been lucky with, so far. I do have a couple of books, by Wargames Foundry Publications, written on Africa during the C19th century and focusing on the armed expeditions of the Europeans and then the wars they were involved in, and when I get around to reading them, hopefully they'll fill in some gaps in my knowledge.

Thanks again.
Roy

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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:29 pm


Since your position is in the middle of different military trends in Africa why dont you also try looking at info on the West African Kingdoms esp Morocco & its opponents to the south. Plus the Portuguese in Africa & Ethiopian Armies & their Jihadist opponents like Ahmed Gan (Ahmed the left handed) as well as the Zulu who are too your south and later period?

The Ethiopians offer a good example of African armies which fought the spread of Islam and got some technical help and volunteers from Christain Europe while opponents offer info on African armies which got Islamic help?

The Ethiopians have a advantage over you in already being Christains and being able to turn to the Pope, Spain, Portugal etc and claiming to be a bunch of poor oppressed Christains in the rear of the Ottomans.......please send 14,000 muskets and a military mission. But I am sure that if you indicated a interest in the Christain faith you could gain support.

Or go the other way.......all its takes is a blow on the head when one of your new boats tacks, a deep spiritual event when knocked out and hay presto you can declare yourself the Mahdi.

If you want to keep away from the nasty "one god" types as have a more purely African Army have a look at the Battle of Ambuila 29 October 1665 fought over a succession dispute in the tiny kingdom of Ambuilia with the rival factions appealing to the mighty Kingdom of Kongo and the Portugese in Angola. Both of whom sent armies to support preferred faction.

The Kongolese (70,000 strong?) lead by their King Antonio I advanced to attack in a half moon formation with all their musketeers, spearmen & archers in first wave and no reserve.

The Angolians (Portuguese) deployed in defensive diamond shaped fromation of Musketeers and Artillery flanked by African allies and with a reserve. The fact that they had reserves and the couse of the fighting leads me to doudt that the Angolian Portugese plus allies were as badly outnumbered as the claim 7500 to 70,000 but they were clearly worried about being outnumbered and flanked.

In the event the Kongolese attacked and were held with the Portuguese artillery playing a key role. But Antonio I led a renewed attack which won on the flanks but were held in the centre. At which point Antonio was killed in the fighting....the loss of their King seems to have shattered his Army which lost all its baggage in the retreat. But avoided total annihilation due to a careful withdraw.

Its not mentioned but I wonder the Portuguese followed common practice in this period (used by Spanish V French Swiss, Moghuls V Sultanate, Ottomans V Hungarian Knights etc) and had dug in their artillery/musketeers then counter attacked with their reserves when the opposition were brought to a stop? This is the classic role for Cavalry but no mention of Cavalry in battle......Have you checked if you can have cavalry or will the flies & lions get them?

I also wonder if death of Antonio I was pure luck? Or was he leading from the front or was he was a particular target? In other battles Spanish & Portugese colonial troops seem to have made deliberate attempts to kill enemy commanders.

The death in battle of Antonio I caused a succession crisis in the mighty Kongo Kingdom from which central Africa has not got over. Clearly as the true heir of the fallen hero it is your duty to rebuild the mighty kingdom but its probably a good idea to study the family history and get some Cannon and an elite royal body guard first.

Actually if you go on Jihad as a true heir of a mighty family line you might do better to model your character on Babur the first of the great Moguls rather than the Zulu who is not even born in 1700. Drilled spear are Ok but I am not sure if the will stand up to artillery, a massed close range solvo and then cold steel from troops on a "mission from God"
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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:31 pm

Thanks for the information, I'll certainly look into it.

###

as well as the Zulu who are too your south and later period?
The Zulu are present in game, as a minor clan inside the Nguni kingdom


nasty "one god" types
Rozwi's religion is Ancestral Worship, as is the majority of the Bantu speakers I've so far encountered in-game.


Have you checked if you can have cavalry
Light (skirmish) Cavalry is a standard unit for the Rozwi.
Matchlock muskets and bows are a possibility. But the standard armemant is spears and shields.


Drilled spear are Ok but I am not sure if the will stand up to artillery
I'll be a bit miffed if other Tribal kingdoms have artillery, as I'm not allowed any - as of the start of the game - so, apart from Portugal, England or the Dutch, I don't know who might already have such weapons ... Spies, where are you! But since it hass taken 6 months to travel with a caravan through the African wilderness, artillery might not be such a problem should the appropriate tactics be used.

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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Stuart Bailey on Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:18 am


Of the Native African Kingdoms.....Kongo & Abyssinia are Christain. The Maghrebi States, Tuareg, Samali, Funj Empire, Shaiqiya and your new best friends in the Zanj Confederation are Muslim......the rest are Shamanist.

Think you could consider allowing in Christain or Muslim missions (with gun founding and other skills). Then at a later date you can declare a Holy War!

Think its very kind of Agema to allow you to start with Light Cavalry. Assume these are like the Galla and Shawa of Abyssinian Armies riding scrubby ponies with toe loops rather than stirrups. Handy for scouting, slave raiding, and running down routers. But if they take on northern lancers on proper Arabian or Dongola horses or even worse Tuareg Camelry......be very, very scared!

Ever considered importing Arab Horses & taking up Horse breeding? Or perhaps Camel or Elephant breeding?

Large number of poor quality flintlocks (called Dane Guns for some reason) imported into Southern Africa in connection with the Slave (2/3 guns per Slave) and Ivory Trades. Like with North American Indian tribes matchlocks were not popular due to smell and sight of burning match putting off game and spoiling ambushes.

Artillery in Africa.....with some exceptions like battes of El-Ksar el-Kebir and Ambuila artillery mostly used to defend or blow holes in walls and moved by water and often crewed by foreign specialists.
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Re: The Power & the Glory (G7) - Fighting under the Lilly Banners or "Death to the French"

Post by Rozwi_Game10 on Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:26 pm

Yes, the cavalry was a surprise when I got the start turn.

"No elite cavalry may be raised" is the only restriction, at present, so as long as I provide a quick reasoning / interpretation for raising the various types, I'm just cracking on with it all.

A lot of the restrictions, I've found, are how you interpret them. No ships able to be constructed allows for a lot of smaller possibilities - and the Madagascans have those out-rigger kayaks that they cross over to the mainland with, a quick reverse engineer or a mission later and we're afloat.

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