Royal / Imperial Weddings

Hi all,

Have any of you got any links/details of resources to share that can help me with planning an Orthodox Wedding fit for a Tsar and future Tsarina? Just planning the next few months orders and writes ups needed. One interesting resource is a bit later but is the Order for the Ceremony of Marriage for Emperor Nicholas II and Alexandra http://www.alexanderpalace.org/wedding/. I'll probably borrow from this but looking for something nearer the time of Peter for comparison. I've found a lot on Orthodox wedding traditions but they have been modernised for current life and so is difficult to determine what is historic and what isn't.

Thanks in advance, Mark

Good luck with this one!

Seriously, it depends whether the wedding includes the Divine Liturgy element.

If you do a search for "Russian Orthodox Wedding Liturgy" then you should find a few videos which might give you some imagery you can use. It will be modern, of course, but in your writeup you could just select part of the service? Because ...

... and I am not intending to insult anyone with this true story ... the Orthodox Liturgy is incredibly long and complicated.

A few years ago I was invited to an Orthodox Liturgy. It lasted 3 hours. The first hour was spent processing from the sacristy down the nave. It was surprisingly social and along with a colleague I was expected to participate. We were both given an Archimandrite to stand next to who was supposed to be explaining and telling us what to do when and where. My spiritual director at the time was also really keen on Orthodox liturgy and chipped in. Did I understand it? Absolutely not!

I was told, nobody understands it. And it wasn't just the language. Everyone (there were about 20 priests and deacons involved of various ranks) wears very fancy robes (except us, which didn't really bother me as I'm not that interested in dressing up); the liturgical colours are different to Catholic services, with lots of gold and different hats. And they all had books of instruction depending on the particular part they had to play. But since different people did different things simultaneously who knows if they were actually doing it correctly.

I made the mistake of trying to show an interest and asking lots of questions so my Archimandrite must have thought he'd drawn the short straw having me to explain to. My questions may have caused him to lose his place in his book of instructions. By the time they'd actually reached the altar I had been told that even the Archimandrite wasn't exactly sure what was going on or how much longer they would be before the next part of the service started and he had something to do. Neither was anyone else, but if they hadn't done anything for a while, then they had broadly 3 things they did:
1. They swung a thurible about so the incense choked the congregation.
2. They crossed from one side of the church to the other in a slow, but deliberate manner.
3. They put on their most serious face and had a chat to the person next to them. Of course they may have been having the same conversation as I was with the Archimandrite, but who knows?

There was certainly a lot of thurible swinging because I had to keep the backup burners going and topping up the incense when they ran out.

When it came to communion it is very different (we were permitted (as Catholics) to receive Orthodox communion in this instance; I'm not sure if it was allowed in 1700 without looking it up). The bread is not a thin wafer, but a bit like an OxO cube; and it is dipped in the wine so both are taken together. And it tastes rancid. Possibly deliberately so.

I don't remember the end of the service because by this time I was getting desperate for a pee (a Catholic Mass rarely runs over an hour and by the time you have added on a few hours for preparation it was getting way beyond a joke) and suggested to the Arcbimandrite that I had better go and get some more incense just in case we ran out. He was quite impressed with this idea (or he could have been relieved that I had found something to do) and when I came back with the incense I was much more relaxed. Clearly I had understood the principles of participating in the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

I later found out that my colleague had understood even less than I did, but he hadn't made the effort to try - he'd been to public school so he thought he could bluff his way through by nodding. So comparing our experiences didn't really help either of us.

People may think that the Catholic Mass is complicated, but compared to this it is simple. There is a single master of ceremonies who can act as a prompter if needed; nobody (should) speak over another, each part of the liturgy has clearly defined sections, and the celebrant gives clear leadership to the congregation. By comparison the Orthodox liturgy seemed deliberately chaotic with no identifiable master of ceremonies, so many different functions performed by so many different clergy and the congregation left mainly as spectators. So culturally it was very difficult to follow. I did enjoy it, but my overall impression was that it was worship, but not as I know it.

Like I said ... good luck!

Thanks Papa, might explain why no one has written it up that I can find

You might like to look at this:

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/41995/Orthodox%20Wedding%20Service:%20with

Post 42001 is probably the most useful. If that is right then the Rite of Crowning (the marriage bit rather than the liturgical bit) is contained within the Orthodox Liturgy. I have managed to find this:

"In general, however, the Orthodox wedding ceremony follows this outline:

1. The Rite of Betrothal, in which rings are exchanged as a sign of commitment and devotion to one another.

2. The “Crowning,” in which crowns or wreaths [customs vary in each parish] are placed on or held above the heads of the bride and groom. This signifies that in marriage there is a certain amount of sacrifice, especially in the area of “give and take.” It also signifies that in a certain respect the bride and groom become the “king and queen” of their own “kingdom,” or family, which is an integral part of the Kingdom of God.

3. The sharing of a common cup of wine, which signifies that in marriage all things are shared equally.

4. The procession around the sacramental table, during which the priest leads the couple three times as they take their first steps together as husband and wife.

5. The removal of the crowns and the final blessing, in which all gathered wish the couple many years of blessings.

There are no “vows” in the Orthodox ritual, as found in other confessions."

I don't know how this differs from the historical rite in use in 1700, but I suspect it will be the same.

I was just wondering after this wedding what will the Austrian line of succession be?

Leopold - getting on a bit?

Josef King of the Romans - is he married? Any kids? Feeling he had a daughter in 1700.

Charles von Hapsburg - probably dec'd

The Orthodox Empress of Russia

Or will various Hapsburg by blows who no one was aware off outrank the Empress?

On details of Royal Orthodox weddings, I have nothing to offer.

But such a wedding should offer great opportunities to raise your Honour if you do great paper writeups for all the things you do leading up to the wedding.

In game 8, I used the royal wedding to drive more than a year of honour building activities.

@Papa thanks for the info I will read it when I'm on call at the weekend, much appreciated.

@Stuart Not sure but a lot can happen in game even from month to month so it would be interesting to play through any scenario where the HRE passes away & Maria Josepha of Austria b. 8.12.1699 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Josepha_of_Austria

Cheers @Deacon I'm starting to get a bit of time to write more speeches and events and will give me a reason whether I get any honour increase or not.

@all probably won't get the round up written until the weekend - I haven't forgotten, also need a quote from the Russian Defence Collegium.