G7 - France vs. England

I think the game is confusing enough as it is with one player per position. I can't imagine the chaos that 2 would bring!

Deacon - Yes indeed.

Mr Ed - It is very confusing especially as the HEIC was there originally but line the DEIC dropped out very early on. Does anyone know where the HWIC came from as they appear to be independent.

I am hoping that sanity will prevail in the game and that there is a balancing effect from the Ottomans, India and Persia...

There's optimism for you...

Deacon - agree completely. This game is very confusing!

Regor - I think HWIC was there from the beginning. Never had any dealings with HEIC, but I guess it is possible that HWIC merged with HEIC. The Ottomans seem firmly focussed on trade. Both India and Persia are quiet. There was something a while ago with the Mahrattans attacking Portuguese colonies in India, but this seems to have stopped now.

Glad you're an optimist!

Ah, thank you! Seems a place for a bit of a rest from European politics...

Im trying to keep the Tsar away from his favourite vodka. Not a good time to have him in a drunken rampage, spoiling for a fight

Dont discount the Swedes either in all of this.....Russia continues to glance nervously North.

This raises an interesting point that I havent seen expanded on in any of the games of Glory of Kings nor in historical reality that I am aware of. Charles XII of Sweden amongst his various titles could also claim the title of Imperial Prince due to Swedish holdings within the Empire. However, this does not seem to have "played" in the politics of the time or in the game. Charles XII did threaten the Emperor in real life due to the treatment of Protestants in Silesia and I dont recall if he did march to Saxony from Poland through Silesia or threatened to but I believe that it was an issue at the time up until Poltava which was around 1707.
I suppose the point I am making is that in the various games I havent seen the Swedes making a big play of Imperial politics. Probably because they are caught up in the Baltic and with Russia.

I don't remember Sweden making a big impact on Imperial Politics in any game I've been in either. And don't forget the Poles.

I guess it is very difficult for Sweden because her possessions are a long way from each other. Pommerania is a long way from Munster/Bremen and both are a long way from Sweden. It also means that to expand them she would have to attack different enemies. Any alliance of Northern Imperial states without Sweden would risk Sweden losing these lands.

Historically Sweden was a French ally (not sure if this is the case now - does anyone admit to being an ally of France, except Russia ) and can put up a good fight as we saw when Prussia tried to invade her lands. If Prussia had alllied with Hannover, Denmark and others, and they each tried to grab one of Sweden's German states then Sweden would find it tough to fight back. In the longer term I wouldn't rule Sweden out though - remember how quickly the armies of Gustavus Adolphus smashed through Germany (1640s), or Charles X into Poland (1650s), or her early successes against Russia in 1700 (real history). I rate Swedish infantry as among the best in Europe at this time. Sweden is one tough cookie

The Swedish forces were remarkable up to the battle of Poltava. I think the reason for this was a combination of factors. Better shock tactics for both cavalry and infantry including the "Ga - Pa" infantry charge tactics, a belief in Calvanist predestination (even though they Swedes were Lutheran) and self confidence given their history over the past 100 years. Whilst perhaps "glorious", Charles bled Sweden to death in perhaps a similar way that Napolean did to France.
It was a pity that Empire Total War didnt replicate this element, perhaps someone knows of a mod which does?

my personal opinion is that The Lion of the North, King Charles XII of Sweden is the most remarkable and interesting man in Europe at this time. I have read accounts of his life, and like so many others he had flaws, but on the battlefield I would suggest he had no equal.

He was out-done by sheer weight of numbers.

True, but he should never have been drawn into the Ukraine. Have a look at where Poltava is on the map. His army was out of supply, suffering from illness and badly depleted. He relied upon support from the Cossacks who had been defeated the year before by Tsar Peter and so they were not in a position to help him as much as they should have.
His previous victories over the Danes, Poles and Saxons were immense but he squandered this by pursuing revenge against Peter.
Certainly "the most remarkable and interesting man in Europe at the time" but Peter deserves the title "the Great" which Charles doesnt. At the end of Charles life his empire was in ruin and it was commonly believed that his death was the result of a bullet from his own side because the Swedes were tired of him squandering their blood. A brilliant figure certainly
If he had won at Poltava he might have been viewed as another Alexander but there was no way he could win on the day.
There are some very good accounts of this written in Swedish which have been translated, but they make quite sad reading from the Swedish perspective.

Guys, that is an area I had no knowledge of but will ferret out some more detail now. Thank you for the conversation ...

OK thats it. No longer can I in all honesty describe Louis King of France as a reasoned(on any level) diplomatic caring sovereign.
This fellow is positively insane. He will never see sense until someone skewersahim to the bed with a bayonet and even then he would argue!. He wishes the total desolation of Europe as we know it in the name of his honour(which frankly is lower than a pirates drawers).
he will never accept reasoned even impartial mediation and now that Russia in a fit of perceived honour has lit the blue touch paper Louis is fizzing around like a rabid demon fortelling doom for all and how the French & Russian hordes will out populate everyone and that losses of 100,000 souls are nothing to him. This psychotic madman will destroy civilized Europe as we know it unless he is toppled by someone more reasonable.
I have had to suffer a six page diatribe which frankly is as simplistic as this example:if you loook funny at me it is an act of War and Russia and he will destroy me. It has been that insultingly simple in its offensiveness.
I will cut off any contact with the deranged fellow just to save me having to face such drivel that he deludes himself is diplomatic mail..

It is interesting how some think that sending insults is somehow productive. I had to do the same to one player. I was trying to be friendly, but eventually your patience wears out.

France, I believe has a world view and a timetable and is driven by these. He would be more amenable if things were going better (perhaps) but France, strong, powerful and committed perhaps feels hemmed-in and is just doing what all powerful nations do, flexing his muscles to try to get you - The Hessian- to back off and allow France to carry out its objectives.

Be flattered you are so important!

Be scared that it might be you next.

Have a plan - if its to kowtow, openly flaunt his demands or work around them?

Good luck ..... dont be misled by history!

It looks to me that game seven will be a quick game. If France and Russia have teamed up and determined to conquer Europe,they will take some stopping.

It is a different scenario to the usual games. They are more diplomatic and people take far more time to build up.

Hmm, that's interesting _ how do LGDR games usually end? With a complete domination or with players dropping out?

Perhaps part of the problem in this game is that France has never been offered reasoned or impartial mediation. Russia is an ally of France and Spain is an ally of Austria.

Prussia made this point in the newspaper this month.

If other players are not prepared to negotiate with France or reply to his letters then France has no option but to fight on and use whatever means he has available to him. What player would not do otherwise?

France and Russia have never stated as their game aim 'complete domination'. Russia would not have declared war on Austria had Austria not attacked France. This seems to have been forgotten!

Hessian - I take issue with any player who suggests or even encourages other players to be driven out of the game. This is a game where everyone should be welcome.

Regor - players of course drop out of games (I can think of 2 in LGDR7 - Prussia and Saxony - who have left due to successful play by Austria), but I don't think that necessarily means games end with complete domination. If that is the case then LGDR simply becomes a wargame. There would be no point in playing smaller nations and the only players who would 'win' would be the large nations. That is not my experience of the game.

The great thing about LGDR is, you can play the game any way you like.You can be a politician, a nation builder, a warmonger. So as far as individual players are concerned the games can end by, achieving your goals with your country, making friends with the world and gaining advances through them, or by defeating all worthwhile, bigger nations. Leaving you the undefeated.
One thing is for certain. There can never be a "right way,or wrong way" to play the games. So no player can ask for another player to be driven from the game.If you want a player out. Easy, defeat his nation in battle,bankrupt him. They are the ways people usually drop out of a game.

I dont think the game will be that quick as somehow I feel Russia is more lucid and understanding that the Louis player. He will eventually realise just what a maniac he has shackled himself to and hopefully then drop him as it is only he who is allowing Louis not to be forced to settle amicably.
Anyway dio you know how long it takes to march an army from Moscow to warsaw with artillery? I do, it takes years.
What worries me is that Regor punctuates his prose exactly like Louis!!!!!!

Hang on Mr Ed where have I stated or intimated to DRIVE someone out of the game. That is ridiculous as well as totally OT.I have not said such. I stated how Louis is affecting the game, his lack of realism and how I will not put up with his diatribes of diplomatic mail which are forced on me. Where do you get that accusation of driving someone out? Thats is too far fella .

For the record, and I am not saying this to stop people attacking me or bankrupting me, just give me enough rope. I am well versed in doing maximum damage to myself without outside help

The Hessian wrote: OK thats it. No longer can I in all honesty describe Louis King of France as a reasoned(on any level) diplomatic caring sovereign.
This fellow is positively insane. He will never see sense until someone skewersahim to the bed with a bayonet and even then he would argue!

Unless I've misread this you are calling for someone to kill King Louis, describing him as insane? This is clearly designed to destroy the character and the player behind the character. If Louis died do you think the player would leave or continue in the same vein with another character? No, this is clearly an attempt to sustain momentum against a character and a player in the game using this forum to vent your frustrations. In my opinion it crosses a line. No player should be expected to put up with this and we all should remember this is a game.

The Hessian wrote: a rabid demon

This isn't supposed to be insulting?

The Hessian wrote: This pyschotic madman wil destroy civilized Europe as we know it unless he is toppled by someone more reasonable.

This may be your opinion, but where is the proof? I read the same newspapers as you do. Russia would not have backed France in the war if France had not been attacked by Austria. That has been reported several times in the newspapers. This is clearly not a French war of aggression against the rest of Europe, but France defending himself.

The Hessian wrote: I will cut off any contact with the deranged fellow.

Well that is really helpful! If you deny a player legitimate recourse to diplomacy then you are putting the game in a situation where the war will never end. However upset you may be about a single letter received I hope you will reply to it through game channels and not simply put spiteful posts on this forum. Please remember that players (even France) are human beings and deserve respect even when you do not agree with their views.

Have you declared war on France? No. You, like several other players are simply content to attack France and stir up ill feeling against him. In doing so you are simply pushing all sides in this conflict to further extreme positions. I refer you again to Prussia's comment in the newspaper. France has offered several lots of peace proposals yet all have been rejected and those who are attacking France still refuse to write to him. This seems to be to be against natural justice and the interests of the game. I've been in games before which have become polarised but the bitterness with which this conflict is being discussed crosses new boundaries.

Please apologise to France and Russia for your comments here and let us all try and be a little bit nicer to each other for the sake of the game.

I'm not surprised that emotions are getting high. We all spend a lot of time (and money) on this game as well as emotional energy!

I'm in game 2 and at war with Prussia and England. We are having a bit of a ding-dong but I still respect the characters as well as the players.

I hope this approach can continue in all games. It's easy to start a war but very difficult to end one. I would say a visceral hatred of your enemy is likely self defeating as, in the asbsence of the atom bomb, you are going to have to make peace with them one day.

I hope that we can all remain friends. I have huge sympathy for the Hessian on this as I am aware of the type of correspondence that can be received from Louis. I have found it to be quite brow beating in the past and so I no longer correspond with him anymore. (And Mr Ed, I do think you should come clean on who you really are?)
The game should be still enjoyable regardless if we are doing well or badly at any given time. We do invest a lot of effort, money, time and concern into our games as Baggins has said. And so we can react strongly, but that is the sign that we care about the game.
Lets accept that the Hessian has received some correspondence from Louis which has wired him up and he needed to let off a bit of steam as a result. No harm done. Hey, in game Louis wanted my head chopped off .
Louis (Mr Ed) if you are out there you need to accept sometimes your style will wire people up, but I salute you as a noble adversary

Mr Ed(sorry king Louis) one major point you have failed to inform everyone of namely you have a peace treaty with me yet you have threatened me in every letter you send me, the last one even pointed out the geographical path of your attackon me, your ALLY!!!!!a. Something I have never done to you! Now wonder why I dont want to have your letters anymore as the threats are wasted and you dont indulge in true diplomacy as you will not listen to any view in the slightest difference to yours without outright verbosity and threats.
I have to admit I have lost patience with you in the game and as such that is why I sounded off as that last 6 pager gave me such a headache! Live with the fact not everyone likes your style and life will get on without it. As for driving you from the game, please carry on, pay your money like I do but just save your paper and mine by cutting out the letters....please! There I am being nice to you.
Count de Monet I feel I might ask to share that rope of yours the longer this goes on....