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Is it more a modern trend to be proud of the country you come from? Most armies in 1700's are made up of mercinaries, most peasants were only interested in where there next meal would come from. Do any of you think that our own Nationalistic ideas influence our Game play?
3 posters
How Important is Nationhood in LGDR?
J Flower- Emperor
- Number of posts : 1242
Age : 54
Location : Paderborn, Germany
Reputation : 17
Registration date : 2012-02-16
Deacon- Emperor
- Number of posts : 1859
Age : 61
Location : Portland OR, USA
Reputation : 44
Registration date : 2010-04-13
Well, I think that during the period, the people who ruled, who we play, cared a lot about their "team", so I don't think nationalism is out of place there. Your point about the general populace is valid, though in the heady air that most of our rulers inhabit, who ever talks to such riff-raff?
I think the question also arises more in the large nations than the small. My reading is that people of the period tended to associate more with a regional than a national identity, but when you're a small state, that is almost the same thing.
Stuart Bailey- Emperor of Europe
- Number of posts : 2606
Age : 61
Location : Somewhere East of Bristol & West of Bath
Reputation : 61
Registration date : 2012-01-29
Tricky question Jason,
I suspect that the vast majority of players are from nation states and even if they live in a different one (like yourself?) still consider the Nation State and loyalty to that state to be of major importance.
This makes running positions like England, France the UDP to be fairly easy since by 1700 these were established Nation States with fully developed Nationalism's. I think most players for instance would be more than happy to make their stand under the Cross of St George & call upon all true men of England to defend her green acres from the vile frog.
What is more of a challenge is getting a feel for things which were very important in 1700 (more so than Nationalism) but less so to your average secular Englishman such as Religion and Dynastic/Family loyalty.
This must make running positions like the Jacobites and the French Protestant rebels and the multi national empires such as the Ottomans, Habsburgs etc a bit of a challenge if you wish to play them as more that a collection of numbers on a sheet.
Where I believe that Nationalism can be over rated by players in Glory du Roi includes:
1) German Nationalism - hands up all of those Prussian or sometimes Austrian or Bavarian players who have attempted to wipe out local Nationalism, stamp on dynastic esp Swedish Rights and replace our beloved Holy Roman Empire with a German Nation State? Oddly this seems a Germanic rather than an Italian habit.
2) Germans, Russians, Poles & Swedes seem to ignore the fact that they are multi national, multi faith and multi langauge Empires in 1700 and treat them as Nation States to a greater or lesser degree. I guess that Russian players can argue that trying to turn Muslims, Cossacks & the Ukraine into Orthodox Russians is sort of historic.
3) When players over rate the importance of National Interest against family/dynastic/religious loyalty.
Can't say I have even been that true in game to the above feelings since my propaganda machine is perfectly happy to use anything to hand be it Religion, Nationalism, Dynastic Loyalty. Sadly, I have not yet found anything which works better than Gold.
I suspect that the vast majority of players are from nation states and even if they live in a different one (like yourself?) still consider the Nation State and loyalty to that state to be of major importance.
This makes running positions like England, France the UDP to be fairly easy since by 1700 these were established Nation States with fully developed Nationalism's. I think most players for instance would be more than happy to make their stand under the Cross of St George & call upon all true men of England to defend her green acres from the vile frog.
What is more of a challenge is getting a feel for things which were very important in 1700 (more so than Nationalism) but less so to your average secular Englishman such as Religion and Dynastic/Family loyalty.
This must make running positions like the Jacobites and the French Protestant rebels and the multi national empires such as the Ottomans, Habsburgs etc a bit of a challenge if you wish to play them as more that a collection of numbers on a sheet.
Where I believe that Nationalism can be over rated by players in Glory du Roi includes:
1) German Nationalism - hands up all of those Prussian or sometimes Austrian or Bavarian players who have attempted to wipe out local Nationalism, stamp on dynastic esp Swedish Rights and replace our beloved Holy Roman Empire with a German Nation State? Oddly this seems a Germanic rather than an Italian habit.
2) Germans, Russians, Poles & Swedes seem to ignore the fact that they are multi national, multi faith and multi langauge Empires in 1700 and treat them as Nation States to a greater or lesser degree. I guess that Russian players can argue that trying to turn Muslims, Cossacks & the Ukraine into Orthodox Russians is sort of historic.
3) When players over rate the importance of National Interest against family/dynastic/religious loyalty.
Can't say I have even been that true in game to the above feelings since my propaganda machine is perfectly happy to use anything to hand be it Religion, Nationalism, Dynastic Loyalty. Sadly, I have not yet found anything which works better than Gold.
J Flower- Emperor
- Number of posts : 1242
Age : 54
Location : Paderborn, Germany
Reputation : 17
Registration date : 2012-02-16
Relgion is I think more Important than National Status for most, look at England Perfectly happy to have Dutch or Hanoverian Royal Families. The main thing is they were Protestant.
With regards to German National State, on the one side reading various biographies, it is clear that most Princes of the HRE are firstly Saxon, Prussian Bavarian etc, secondly Imperial princes and thirdly in some cases German.
My personal biased view is that Germany or more correctly the Holy Roman Empire is surrounded by powerful nations, from France, Russia, Poland, and the Ottomans. SO that a degree of self preservation is also a factor. because a number of the Smaller states for various reasons are not so politicall yactive as others then there is the temptation to strengthen at there expense.
It may also be that the Historical facts of the success of the German unification under Bismark is also a tempting factor.
I'd be interested to here the views of non-British players as to there views. i read an interesting account of the German view of Waterloo recently it puts it into a different perspective
With regards to German National State, on the one side reading various biographies, it is clear that most Princes of the HRE are firstly Saxon, Prussian Bavarian etc, secondly Imperial princes and thirdly in some cases German.
My personal biased view is that Germany or more correctly the Holy Roman Empire is surrounded by powerful nations, from France, Russia, Poland, and the Ottomans. SO that a degree of self preservation is also a factor. because a number of the Smaller states for various reasons are not so politicall yactive as others then there is the temptation to strengthen at there expense.
It may also be that the Historical facts of the success of the German unification under Bismark is also a tempting factor.
I'd be interested to here the views of non-British players as to there views. i read an interesting account of the German view of Waterloo recently it puts it into a different perspective