G7....War declared

Stuart Bailey wrote:- Tea drinking was introduced into England by Charles II Portugese Queen - Catherine of Braganza and in our period it would still have been a very expensive drink of the fashionable and wealthy upper classes.  The fact that early English tea caddies are often made of solid silver and have locks on them to stop the servants trying it out gives a good idea of both the cost and the limited market for tea early on.

Tea in our period would all have come from China, the introduction of tea growing to highland area's of India, Ceylon and East Africa comes much later.  Though I believe some wild tea plants do grow outside of China.  In Game it is possible that if they got the tea seeds from China a Great Moghul in Assam or the Dutch on Ceylon could try and establish Tea as a cash crop after a number of years.

In the early period the crop which was introduced and grown on Ceylon by the Dutch (until wiped out by a blight) and also of great interest to the HEIC was not tea but coffee which originally came from the lands around the Red Sea.  By 1715 Europe was busy developing its coffee culture with coffee drinking and coffee houses like Lloyds of London spreading from the Ottomans to Hapsburg lands and then all over Europe.  Supply was still from the lands around the Red Sea esp via the port of Mocha with other sources of supply being established on Ceylon and in South America.

In G7 despite arguments that the crop already existed the Spanish had to develop coffee as a new crop in South America.........but at least it was not as much grief as trying to establish vineyards in California.  Though the reds in Chile are doing well (so they should be some of those Vineyards date from the 1620's).

Though interestingly when I visited Lloyds of London and looked at information on the original coffee house it seems that at Mr Lloyds coffee house which served as a meeting place for London insurance underwriters and their clients captains, the main drink served was not coffee but was actually Hot Chocolate.  And no I do not know why a coffee house mostly sold hot chocolate unless a lot of its customers had picked up a taste for chocolate in the America's.

Also have no idea why in G7 Lloyds should be paying 250% tax or a Spanish merchant going anywhere near the pirate hold of London.  Its a few days sail from from Charleston and other Russian Ports to Havana where you have one of the greatest of all exchanges to trade north American Timber, Salt fish, furs etc for southern produce like coffee and hot chocolate for either local use of export too Europe.  Oh boy are the locals going to be upset when James "revenue" show up demanding 250%.  They were so happy paying the Czar his 2% and something into the honesty box was does duty as Spanish customs in Havana.

Very interesting ... I thought coffee was introduced before tea, which Stuart seems to confirm.

Trade with China is difficult so that might be why the price of tea is so high rather than the 250% tax, although as a tax on luxuries perhaps this should be increased to a more reasonable 2500%. Always a good idea to get the enemy to pay for the war he is causing.  We are only a couple of turns to the income round so perhaps I will see the benefit then.

On the coffee/chocolate point, this does make more sense since I think they come from different plants.  It is possible that chocolate is available from West Africa so can be imported from there, whereas coffee is American.  Seems perfectly natural that English merchants would prefer to buy their own product rather than rely on Spanish imports.

Stuart Bailey wrote:

The Austrian Army in our period has first rate artillery, a mixture of heavy cavalry, light cavalry and dragoons, plus a mix of line and light infantry.  It is probably the best balanced Army in game and historically its performance at Zenta, Belgrade, Turin etc, etc show it to have been man for man the 2nd best Army of the period after the Swedes some of who's battle performances pre-1709 were just insane.

For those who say Marlborough Anglo-Dutch-Danish-Scots etc Army in Flanders were better I would tend to agree but that was one force, under one outstanding General and in three out of four major battles he had Austrian allies.  Elsewhere like Spain and the America's plus in Europe when not commanded by Marlborough the performance of the British Army esp its higher command was generally 2nd rate!  

Agree that in G7 the handling of the Austrian Army has not been great compared to history, but the English, French, Russians and Dutch have also had their share of bad moments in G7!!  Swedes have kept up their proud record of winning every fight but still losing the war.  Meanwhile the Army of Habsburg Spain which is 100% copy of the Army of Prince Eugine has held the line and now has some really smart gaiters.

You have clearly gone into the military side in greater detail than I have, Stuart, although it does seem to make Austrian defeats in G7 even more concerning (from the Austrian perspective).  When you also consider that Austria has access to Hungarian light infantry and light cavalry, they should have greater flexibility to perform well in different terrains and so I can understand the point about them being well balanced.

In the game, since 1708 the French army has rarely put a foot wrong; the Russian army is also probably much tougher than it was historically.  The Dutch forces are harder to comment upon because most of the time they just walked into undefended towns or broke ceasefires (1st Dumbarton).  The only sizeable battle I remember them fighting was 2nd Dumbarton at which their artillery was lost, cavalry shattered, their best infantry driven back, and what was left of their army fled the field before the French showed up.  Strategically they didn't need to fight, but attacked my troops at the top of a hill - they lacked respect for English forces and paid the price.  As for the list of English military problems, that could probably fill a forum topic on their own.  However, it is worth bearing in mind that around half of the English army had deserted (some to HWIC) or gone over to the Dutch in the period 1705-08, so when I joined in May 1708 what units I had were undrilled low morale and in a total mess.  I had to throw what I had to fend off invasions, usually with appallingly high attrition losses, and it wasn't really until 1711-12 when I had started to build up the nucleus of an army which stood a reasonable chance at fighting. Given the threat to London, I felt obliged to keep my best troops for defence, which probably led my enemies to think my army was even more useless than it appeared. I still think that my troops had spirit and fought remarkably well given their level of preparation and the quality of the forces they were up against.  Most of my new army ended up being captured at sea, so I then had to start again.  By the time I had rebuilt a 2nd or 3rd time, quality had started to improve so although the result of 2nd Dumbarton was a shock to the Dutch, it was a relief to me that I was able to hold the field against what on paper was a highly experienced, excellently drilled, high morale stronger Dutch force.  A lot of this might have been just bad luck, but it took me 5-6 years to get even a basic army together.  If it takes Austria a similar amount of time to rebuild her army into a decent fighting force then I would not be surprised.  2nd Dumbarton was so important because it was the first time the Dutch realised they were going to take casualties - their whole plan was to plunder England of men/materials, but after 2nd Dumbarton they began to wonder how they could get their plunder back to UDP when everywhere they wanted to go was hostile and meant fighting more battles they no longer thought they could win just by showing up.  If they really wanted to they could have dug in at Glasgow with its excellent defences which would have been tricky to take, but time was not on their side.

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Final point when I said the G7 French and Spanish are sane........this was in comparison to the French & Germans in scrabble............As such it was fair comment and will be backed up by any reader of the Brittanic Times !!

Fair enough - I don't play Scabble, so I'll take your word for it.

Chocolate in our period comes from South and Central America, so Mr Lloyd in G7 is either buying from the Portugese or from the Spanish via third parties (these Prussians, Russians and Dutch get everywhere!) to avoid very high tax charged on Spanish merchants who are not going anywhere his cafe in case they either get arrested as spies or see something which upsets them (Blackbeard).

Chocolate as a drink often with honey, vanilla or chilli for flavour had been consumed in America's for thousands of years prior to 1700 and the Cocoa beans were ever used as a form of money with Jesuit reports saying you could buy a Turkey for 100 Cocoa Beans or a fresh Avocado for 3. Following Cortez and his merry men Chocolate drinking was then introduced to Europe via Spain, reached Austria by 1602 and spread across rest of Europe in the C17 century.

Unlike the other American import of Tobacco and even coffee which faced some religious objections. Chocolate drinking was helped by the Pope who ok it for drinking on a fast day. Clearly no one informed him about some of the Aztec beliefs concerning chocolate!

It should be noted that solid chocolate was not invented untill 1847.......In my home area, with the modern flush lavatory our great claim to be benefactors of man kind. Though if I push things a few miles can also include the cure for small pox as well..........so is outside of our period and when talking about chocolate we are always talking about hot or cold chocolate drinks. A commercial rival to tea, coffee and indirectly other drinks like port, wine etc for the money of Mr Lloyds ccustomers.

Theory has been put forward in Glori by Jason 2 amongst others that considering the strength of the small beer drunk at breakfast plus strength and amounts of the Dutch gin, Cider, Vodka, Port etc etc drunk by the whole population the average state of being in the Glori period is hung over if not drunk. So a swap to Tea, coffee or hot chocolate should lead to improved EH. A view not yet accepted by Richard !!

Unlike Sugar cane which is basically a giant weed which will grown anywhere with a bit of sun and some water. The Cacao tree is a sod too grow - they need rich well drained soils which get min of 2000mm of rain. They will also only grow in a narrow band 20 degrees either side of the equator and need 21 to 32c and can not survive temp below 15c so lowlands only.

Basically outside of home areas you can transport and grow Cacao trees on some of the islands in the West Indies. Though why anyone would replace their fast growing sugar with trees taking years to grow and making much less profit (in this period) than Sugar is a mystery.

Cacao trees found in central America/north of south America which give the very best Cocoa beans are unfortunately the hardest too grow elsewhere. However if you can find the more easy going Species which grows up the Amazon these can be introduced to West Africa. Though trying to convince the Ashante to grow trees on their best farm land which they have only just claimed from the Jungle may be a bit of a problem.

Now digging up a lot of trees in the America's to transport them too Africa and force a lot of farmers on the Ivory Coast to grow them sounds like something from scabble. Wonder if Kew Gardens needs to inform the French that they have just dug up a lot of the wrong type of tree!

Stuart Bailey wrote:Chocolate in our period comes from South and Central America, so Mr Lloyd in G7 is either buying from the Portuguese or from the Spanish via third parties (these Prussians, Russians and Dutch get everywhere!) to avoid very high tax charged on Spanish merchants who are not going anywhere his cafe in case they either get arrested as spies or see something which upsets them (Blackbeard).

Chocolate as a drink often with honey, vanilla or chilli for flavour had been consumed in America's for thousands of years prior to 1700 and the Cocoa beans were ever used as a form of money with Jesuit reports saying you could buy a Turkey for 100 Cocoa Beans or a fresh Avocado for 3.  Following Cortez and his merry men Chocolate drinking was then introduced to Europe via Spain, reached Austria by 1602 and spread across rest of Europe in the C17 century.

Unlike the other American import of Tobacco and even coffee which faced some religious objections.  Chocolate drinking was helped by the Pope who ok it for drinking on a fast day.  Clearly no one informed him about some of the Aztec beliefs concerning chocolate!

It should be noted that solid chocolate was not invented untill 1847.......In my home area, with the modern flush lavatory our great claim to be benefactors of man kind.  Though if I push things a few miles can also include the cure for small pox as well..........so is outside of our period and when talking about chocolate we are always talking about hot or cold chocolate drinks.  A commercial rival to tea, coffee and indirectly other drinks like port, wine etc for the money of Mr Lloyds customers.

I'm guessing the Portuguese must be supplying chocolate to London then.

I'm a bit surprised that a Pope would get involved in determining whether a particular drink broke fasting rules, although they did like tinkering with that kind of thing.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Theory has been put forward in Glori by Jason 2 amongst others that considering the strength of the small beer drunk at breakfast plus strength and amounts of the Dutch gin, Cider, Vodka, Port etc etc drunk by the whole population the average state of being in the Glori period is hung over if not drunk.  So a swap to Tea, coffee or hot chocolate should lead to improved EH.  A view not yet accepted by Richard !!

I can see the logic, but can't see King James interfering in the lives of his subjects by trying to limit alcohol consumption - sounds rather puritanical instead of catholic to me. Of course if England had her own tea/coffee/cocoa plantations then I could justify it by trying to increase trade, but somehow I don't think this is likely to happen.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Unlike Sugar cane which is basically a giant weed which will grown anywhere with a bit of sun and some water.  The Cacao tree is a sod too grow - they need rich well drained soils which get min of 2000mm of rain.  They will also only grow in a narrow band 20 degrees either side of the equator and need 21 to 32c and can not survive temp below 15c so lowlands only.

Basically outside of home areas you can transport and grow Cacao trees on some of the islands in the West Indies.  Though why anyone would replace their fast growing sugar with trees taking years to grow and making much less profit (in this period) than Sugar is a mystery.  

Cacao trees found in central America/north of south America which give the very best Cocoa beans are unfortunately the hardest too grow elsewhere.  However if you can find the more easy going Species which grows up the Amazon these can be introduced to West Africa.  Though trying to convince the Ashante to grow trees on their best farm land which they have only just claimed from the Jungle may be a bit of a problem.

Now digging up a lot of trees in the America's to transport them too Africa and force a lot of farmers on the Ivory Coast to grow them sounds like something from scabble.  Wonder if Kew Gardens needs to inform the French that they have just dug up a lot of the wrong type of tree!

Sounds like a major project. I seem to vaguely recall there are some rules for tea/coffee plantations, so perhaps there are rules for cocoa plantations as well? Not something I've ever been inclined to experiment with - too long a timescale and I've never really been keen on plantation economies. Easier to leave that to Spain.

Ref the Historical Armies of the War of the Spanish Succession and the Great Northern War and how their G7 versions have stacked up too date my view is :-

Part 1 - Armies of the GNW

1) The G7 Swedes have proved deadly..... of particular gosh-wow effect was when they stormed Riga and its defences using siege ladders virtually off line of march and forced the total surrender of a huge Russian force holding the city.  Pretty sure that anyone else trying this would have ended up stuck in the ditch!  But some how after winning every battle they finished each campaign against the Russians with a little less land and a little poorer.

SB Conclusion Swedes need to plan their victories better.  Just defeating someone so they are pushed back behind a screen of Cossacks and Artillery is no good if they get x5 your recruit numbers.  What Swedes need to do  is fight so where foe can not retire easily.  Storming a Army while its behind defences like Riga seems a bit high risk but when defending a land of rivers and lakes v foe famous for its inability to swim what you want to do is try and push their retreat into a river or a lake!

2) Russians.......opposite of Swedes suffering defeat after defeat but won the GNW by attacking on multi fronts so making progress at weak points while getting defeated elsewhere.

Basically, all very like the historic war only Swedes never marched into the middle of the foeign territory and suffered a shattering defeat due to lack of supplies, rotton gunpowder and being hugely outnumbered.  They left that too the Austrians.  

Russians have also waged a few campaigns outside of the Baltic which have achieved political objectives but were very, very costly in particular their Siege of New York got no where at all against the "Dutch" defenders and the Russian fleet sunk in a storm while trying to support the siege.  While campaign in Scotland which Russians still blame Jacobite "allies" for dumping them in wrong place and unprepared for resulted in other peoples political objectives being obtained but Russian Army suffering terrible losses due to disease etc.  Bit like some of their historic campaigns in Crimea!

SB Conclusion - Russians win their wars but do not like playing too far away from home.  Their Navy also needs to avoid Blockades since not only was New York a total disaster but major Russian Navy defeat which resulted in wipe out of a whole Russian fleet was due to being on blockade duty and then getting trapped against the shore.  If Forbin ever gets made Grand Admiral of Russia and the Army wants a long Naval blockade of Riga or some other port the opperative words will be "Build you own mole......if its good enough for the Duke of Parma and good enough for the Cardinal its good enough for you"

Note General feeling in G7 is that Russian military record is really bad because they have been taking on the best of the best - The Swedes.  Against other foes the Czar merry men likely to say "You not pycho Vikings with cold steel in blue coats.........you pussy"  or something along these lines.

3) Danes, Poles, Saxons and Ottomans all played a part in the historic Great Northern War but sadly not in G7 so nothing to go on.  Danes now merged with Swedes so will be interesting to see what happens with combined military.  Saxony-Polish Lithunanian Commonwealth remains the political-military black hole of G7 but for how much longer??????????????????

Ottomans have been played in G7 but not sure if anything done in way of reform of existing military.  Apart from drilling in existing ways.

A Russian view, just in case people thought only Spain & England posted on this thread.

It appears the Russian Oprichiniki,(Secret Service) has planted copies of the new Russian Maritime maps, a cunning plan indeed. Those using the Specially prepared charts have it seems been Geographically Embarrassed. it could explain why a certain Admiral is a little bit upset in Flanders. The Charts were specially drawn up for the Russian Admiralty & only work properly for the Russian Navy, simply because they are never sure which part of Chart they are on anyway & due to the vodka don't really care either,

The Russian Army has so far in G7 not exactly covered itself in Glory this is very true, however Russia has managed to get the Baltic States under its control despite the Russian diplomatic corps attempts to sabotage the war effort. So The objective was achieved in G7 GNW.

It is worth pointing out that at the start Russia is unable to Raise Heavy Cavalry as the required horses are not available, nor are Ships of the Line able to be built. So initially Russia is on the back foot in the military technology stakes. Now with the Submarine Technology breakthrough, Russia is way ahead in the technology field.

The Army of Russia has also completed the replacement of pointy sticks with mustgets & Baynogets

The Russian Artillery Service has likewise been refurbished & Expanded. Guns now all painted green & barrels buffed up. Lincorne Howitzers anyone?

Russian Ambassador to London is also investigating the Rifled barrels of the cannon that were used to shoot Cricket Balls in the last reported Cricket match. The use of Willow planks to defend against these cannonballs is of interest as well. Is there a military use for this?

Seems the Asante have muddled up their Prussians & their Russians. Gross Friedrichsburg being a Russian Colony not a Prussian one, add in that the Russians are Expanding the colony Westwards & the Asante are Demanding compensation for Prussian Eastwards expansion, & it appears the Oprichiniki cartography department has struck once again. The Asante are demanding Prussians pay for the expansion of a colony they don't own, in a direction they are not going.



The Ottomans are active again, well at least Moldavia is. Is this the start of an Ottoman revival in G7.Which could make life interesting in oh so many ways.

The "Corporate Takeover Battle" for control of the HWIC boardroom continues, it has been noted ships are being captured but not many are actually being sunk. The Jury for the "We Sink Ships!" Trophy are adamant that only ships sunk will be counted for tally, ships sunk without enemy action or due to storms counting double. Ships sunk by their own crews count triple.

Not saying the march direct too the enemy capital in full strength and win war in one blow plan of campaign has not worked in Glori since it has. But as a general rule of thumb it only works against a much weaker foe such as France v Genoa in G10 or an idiot who leaves his capital wide open. After new French government beheaded King in G2 and invaded Germany on their 2nd turn......confused about dates? Thinking game was Napoleonic? The French born King of Spain who's grandfather and family had just be slaughtered marched direct to Paris under the replaced (in France) Bourbon flag giving out huge amounts of alms to the poor, the Church and charming the nobility while offering to step aside and make his son King of France in what was probably the classic "walk over" in any campaign of Glori.

May also work if your foe is totally surprised or distracted by own campaign such as when Venice was taken in one month by a Rumelian coup-de-main in G2. Through perhaps Richard only allowed this against as Venice at the time was NPC, it was a good plan by veteran and highly experience troops. And basically Rumelia then hit by a diplomatic shit storm. Pope called my character the "anti-Christ"!!

Unlike other games of Glori which can look a bit more Napoleonic in style G7 with grand sweeping campaigns like that of the Austro-Swedes in G10 which has now even raided the French Atlantic port with forces from the land. G7 is currently the most hard core C18th in style......Its main land military powers in G7 of France, Russia and Spain after hard experience have devoloped a conservative adversion to abandoning their supply lines and leaving powerfull fortresses with cavalry/light infantry too their rear. They are also not keen fighting on fighting on a field commanded by opponents fortress artillery and think that in war on land the spade is at least as important as the musket.

Perhaps the active and very interested in military affairs powers of Sweden and Prussia will at some stage try and break this conventional wisdom in G7 since it would seem to favour the powers with the deepest treasury and recuit pool rather than military skill, dash and valour. Suspect the other major European Army in G7 Austria is better off sticking with the conventional wisdom and trying to use its superior light forces and artillery to max effect. Certainly its mad dash into the heart of France in the last war did not go at all well.

England remains as as a major Naval power and its Army seems to be used mostly in co-operation with the Navy. Perhaps because horses seem to suffer so badly from long sea trips and from loading uploading it seems to be a mostly Infantry force which dislikes open country and moving away from Naval Artillery support. The English Navy has lost a lot of Admiral in combat but basically seems much the same in culture as the 1700 force. Following death or desertion of King William, John Churchill, etc, etc, etc the English Officer Corp now seems to have been mostly deplaced by Jacobites many of them seem to be insanely brave and a bit mad! Really tough street fighters who love a good dust up but also likely to charge head long into a wall of Dutch volleys or dug in Spanish Artillery fire.

Mystery force I really want to see in action in G7 is the Persian Army its now 1715 and the Shah has been polishing it and his reputation as a Ghazi for last 176 turns. He has imported Austrian Artillery, Spanish muskets and good knows what else from Russia etc while using his Naval war against the Kaffar French to recruit the best horsemen of central asia, Afghanisatan and eastern Anatolia to his Shia banners..............surely the Army of the True believers or whatever he calls it is ready by now? But what will it be used for ????

Stuart Bailey wrote:G7 is currently the most hard core C18th in style......Its main land military powers in G7 of France, Russia and Spain after hard experience have developed a conservative aversion to abandoning their supply lines and leaving powerful fortresses with cavalry/light infantry too their rear.  They are also not keen fighting on fighting on a field commanded by opponents fortress artillery and think that in war on land the spade is at least as important as the musket.

England remains as a major Naval power and its Army seems to be used mostly in co-operation with the Navy.  Perhaps because horses seem to suffer so badly from long sea trips and from loading uploading it seems to be a mostly Infantry force which dislikes open country and moving away from Naval Artillery support.  The English Navy has lost a lot of Admirals in combat but basically seems much the same in culture as the 1700 force.  Following death or desertion of King William, John Churchill, etc, etc, etc the English Officer Corp now seems to have been mostly displaced by Jacobites many of them seem to be insanely brave and a bit mad!  Really tough street fighters who love a good dust up but also likely to charge head long into a wall of Dutch volleys or dug in Spanish Artillery fire.

Perhaps the reasons France, Russia and Spain concentrate on logistics is because the players are all good commanders and they have seen how high attrition losses were from English forces under a player who still doesn't really understand the logistics side.

Naval artillery support for English forces does tend to inspire confidence, but it is also highly practical if you think about it.   A SoL mounts a broadside of 35guns at 2-3 different heights along a gun deck length of around 150 feet.  This gives a tremendous concentration of fire compared to a battery of FA.  The frontage of 1F deployed in line would be around 700 feet and we know from the rules that it is not possible to deploy more than 1FA for each 1F.  So land-based artillery would comprise of 8 guns over 700 feet compared to the SoL's 35 guns over 150 feet.  Even a Jacobite can realise that this gives a significant advantage to the SoL.  The FA may be able to fire a greater variety of shot against forces on land, but only ordinary roundshot would be able to fire on the SoL.

English Admirals certainly like to be in combat, but losses have not been that great compared to the number of actions they have fought in. The Royal Navy works very hard!  It is a shame that 2 or 3 Admirals I would have liked to have used as characters were killed in action in earlier wars, but I've certainly not had any problem in replacing them.

Army officers are a bit harder to replace, but after the 1705-06 desertions it was important to appoint those who had at least demonstrated some loyalty to the Stuart cause. The original picks were probably not the best, but they soon learned and it did help when the Scottish clans rose in support of King James and brought with them literally hundreds of half-mad Jacobite officers with loyal retainers.  The problem, as Stuart correctly observes, is controlling them.  While my preferred approach is to make meticulous plans and implement them with the same caution shown by French and Spanish forces, Jacobites seem determined to charge as soon as the enemy is seen.  This may be a correct reflection of history since from what I recall of the Jacobite vs Hanoverian engagements, when Jacobites were stuck waiting for orders to attack they were often cut down by musket fire, whereas Jacobites were quite deadly when they launched surprise attacks.  In the Battle of Prestonpans (1745) 2500 Jacobites (infantry only force) faced 2200 English (mixed force of foot, dragoons and artillery, all well positioned with high numbers of pickets to raise the alarm if the Jacobites charged).  They did and after half an hour the English were routed, their artillery captured, dragoons fled ... Jacobite casualties c.200, English killed/captured c.1,000.  Only 450 English made it back to Berwick.  Compare to the Battle of Glenshiel (1719) in which c.1,000 Jacobites encumbered with c.400 Spaniards faced c.1,100 English.  The Jacobite commander wanted to keep his force together and because the Spaniards were not able to use normal Jacobite tactics, he adopted a defensive position.  The English using the new coehorn mortars, shelled the position which set fire to the heather.  The Jacobites sensibly withdrew out of the smoke which left the Spanish holding the centre; after a grenadier attack the Spanish surrendered.  Having reformed the Jacobites could not charge over burning heather so most of the Jacobites escaped.  Losses from combat were about 100 Spanish and 140 English, but since the Spanish surrendered, the final total was c.400 Spanish.

Of course there is also one other handicap facing English officers ... the campaigning season tends to clash with the cricket season and it must be very tricky for an officer to choose between letting the Royal Cricket Team down and going off to fight.  What I could really do with is some kind of winter sport/pastime (or perhaps clearing St.Paul's Cathedral for use as an indoor cricket ground)?

G7 October 1715 turn has arrived and for the benefit of non-players this is a shortened writeup due to real world considerations:

1. No Russian shipping losses were reported this month, but there were 149 Spanish, 11 English, 4 French and 2 Persian.  It would appear that Spain has once again won this month's Tsar's "Our Ships Sank" trophy.  Although it should be pointed out that 73 Spanish prizes managed to escape from the French navy, so since these were not reported separately in the shipping lists that would reduce the number of confirmed Spanish ships lost as 76.

2. Elsewhere there were a number of generally inconclusive engagements with the French generally getting the better of the Spanish in the Channel, but HWIC EiM putting up a fight in the West Indies.  It comes as a relief to Jacobite Naval Intelligence that the French navy is finally meeting with some success.

3. On the front page there is a rather confused report of the action around Ceuta/Gibraltar.  Commodore Walton, an officer noted for his tenacity, decided on his own initiative to pursue those Xebecs that had taken English prizes last month and fled into Ceuta.  The cowardly pirates hid behind a raised chain boom and unfortunately in light wind Walton was unable to break the boom, so reluctantly sailed off.  The Xebecs naturally came out of port only to run smack into another English fleet and scurried off again to hide behind the chain boom.  The result of this action is that England remains in control of this vital shipping lane, with the ports of Ceuta and Gibraltar both closed to trade.

4. On the Danube Austria has rather bizarrely been using priests and monks as labourers to dig a canal, or rather would have done if the Bavarians hadn't already done the work.  Perhaps this is what happens when you use Dutch surveyors?

5. Back in London, King James has held a banquet to celebrate the Royal Cricket Team's victory and graciously invited the Durham side, and a number of other dignitaries including the Prussian ambassador in the hope he can explain what is going on in the Holy Roman Empire.  While reiterating his desire for peace, King James made it clear that the Papacy does not dictate the policy of the Royal Navy and to underline this has commissioned another 300 light cruisers for use should the war continue into next year.  Lord Admiral Orford was believed to be looking rather smug when King James declared he would if necessary double or triple the order to ensure we can take 10,000 enemy liners per month while protecting English trade.  Of course he may be a little less smug when he realises that he has to find those 10,000 liners/month which may be increasingly difficult if Spanish merchants refuse to come out of their ports.

6. There have been a few diplomatic moves with Count Monterray of Spain seeking private audience with Prince John William Friso of UDP, Princess Dorothea Sophie of Hesse-Darmstadt seeking to meet the Elector of Brandenburg, and 2 countesses embarking on the Grand Tour of Europe.  I don't know whether the elector of Brandenburg is the same as the King of Prussia, but it would appear that Emperor Joseph is finally prepared to recognize Prussia as half a kingdom in the hope that he will join in a ban on English traders.  So far as I am aware English troops have not landed anywhere in the HRE, so the comment requesting an apology is somewhat puzzling.

7. In Russia the Orthodox church has become somewhat upset about celebrating Easter.  I'm not quite sure what this is about either, and there is no point in asking Prince Golitsyn since he has no time to respond to the many letters he receives.  It is kind for him to let people know.

8. In Rome a new charity has been set up for the support of poor Catholics in England who suffered for their faith over the last 150 years.  Meanwhile Pope Clement has asked France, England and Spain to stop attacking merchant ships, and Spain to cease giving reasons to England to attack merchant ships, while permitting England to continue her war against pirates.  Since it is still not clear how to distinguish pirates from merchants (HWIC/Portobello Company claiming to be a trading company which is really a front for pirates), I'm not entirely sure this gets us much further forward, but no doubt things will be clarified next month.  Jacobite Naval Intelligence suspects that the Pope is stuck in the middle of all this with significant pressure being applied by Spain to embarrass King James.  This seems to be having the opposite effect judging by the reaction from the banquet in London.  Indeed the more Spain pushes the Papacy down this line the more it hardens the resolve in London, at least among the nobles and merchants.  Any thoughts that HWIC was defunct would appear to be incorrect given that on the Spanish city of Palermo HWIC have been trying to bribe captured English merchant crews into joining their ranks.  No amount of money could suffice, though, since English sailors know that they will "end up on the end of a traitor's rope" if they sign up.

9. Rumelia has reminded Spain that she owes 100 spoon dredgers, but with the chain booms at Cadiz likely to be raised at the first sight of an English ship, there may be rather a long wait for delivery.

10. There is a rather rambling account of "minutes and doings of the HWIC (in exile)" which claims their business is still expanding and they trade with just about every country Spain would like King James to declare war on.  It does not take Jacobite Naval Intelligence to dismiss this as Spanish propaganda.

11. A more interesting statement from the Russian Collegium of Foreign Affairs provides their response to recent disagreements with Poland.  Of more relevance to England is the Tsar's later comments on cricket.  It would certainly be nice if the Russians could field a team.

12. Finally, a new game map has appeared of ... the Gobi Desert!  Does this signify that in one game there is a new player of the Dzungar Zhanate?  Who knows, but at least G7 has not lost its ability to surprise.

The newspaper for November 1715 has arrived earlier than expected, and for the benefit of non-players, here is a summary of events:


1. No Russian shipping losses have been reported this month, just 59 Spanish, 5 English, 2 French and 1HWIC ship which is described as a smuggler!  So the winner of this month’s Tsar’s Our Ships Sank trophy is once again … Spain.  There were also several engagements in the Ethiopian Sea between HWIC armed merchantmen and French corvettes.  HWIC has long been known to use disguised ships to swap from ‘ordinary’ trade to piracy when they think they can get away with it.  This would seem to support the English ambassador’s reminder in Rome that given HWIC is masquerading as a ‘trading’ company and uses various kinds of merchant ships to attack others, it is necessary to target merchant shipping: ”If someone can explain how to eliminate HWIC without targeting merchant shipping, King James will listen, but until that happens they are a legitimate target.”


2. Off the pirate base of Ceuta, Admiral Torrington’s fleet observed that the chain boom had now been lowered to let merchant ships out, but for some unknown reason was disinclined to react just yet.  This is understandable since he is known to be a cautious commander and pirates can be tricky.  Meanwhile the Earl of Peterborough who had previously been the Governor of Tangiers and bravely held off the Moroccans on several occasions, led his small assault force out of Moroccan territory and through a mountain pass only to find his way blocked by an old citadel.  This was somewhat of a surprise – a rare failure by Jacobite Naval Intelligence who reported the citadel being on the opposite side of the town!  However, Lord Peterborough is not the kind of officer who allows a few stones to get in his way.  It transpired that the fort was defended, although it was not clear by whom.  Had this been held by bonafide Spanish (rather than renegade Spaniards loyal to Martel/HWIC or pirates) then it would have been reasonable for them to have sent an envoy to Lord Peterborough, but instead they opened fire.  Still unsure of the identity of the defenders, but by now convinced that Jacobite Naval Intelligence had been correct that Ceuta was indeed in the hands of pirates, he would not let a straggle of cutthroats stand in his way.  His duty demanded that he dealt with them.    

After a breach had been made in record time, Sir William Waller led the forlorn hope but was surprised to find the defenders not only had high quality muskets, but also artillery and grenadoes.  As his men were driven back he reported that they were using the flags of the Gerona Fusiliers Regiment.  Lord Peterborough checked with his notes: the Gerona Fusiliers were last reported in … Gerona, somewhere near the French border.  It would be surprising if King Charles of Spain moved infantry from such a strategically important border town to garrison a pirate base.  The only other reference he could remember was that during the last war there was a renegade general Gerona who while allegedly in Dutch service broke the ceasefire in Scotland and attacked English troops.  He could not immediately recall whether general Gerona had been captured and executed for this crime, but as a working hypothesis it would be typical HWIC for them to use the name of a renegade general and impersonate a Spanish unit.  He therefore ordered Sir George Oakley’s men forward and they drove them out with little difficulty.  That would seem to prove they were indeed not Spanish regulars, but pirates armed with Spanish weapons, for Spanish regulars would have put up a much better fight.  

That was not the end, though, for the next day a company of light infantry skirmishers attempted to retake the fortress.  They were soon shot to pieces by Viscount Tamworth’s rifles.  The remnants of the ‘Gerona fusiliers’ fled back to Ceuta to warn the pirates that the English had arrived.  Unfortunately this gave the Xebecs in the harbour time to prepare.  Lord Torrington, realising that he had better join the action else risk being cashiered for cowardice, sent a LSoL into the harbour – quite why he sent only a single ship is a mystery and proved to be a mistake.  The 15 Xebecs which had taken 10 English liners two months before and had fled back to their depot last month when Torrington arrived, had time to position themselves and raked St.Thomas at point blank range.  The interesting point about this is that the Xebecs are described as being equipped with carronades … these 52pdr short range ship destroyers are lethal at point blank range, but normally not fitted to such a small ship as a Xebec because they would unbalance it and cause it to capsize.  So this is likely to be a special pirate modification worthy of later investigation.  A tribute to the sound construction of English ships, despite this concentrated attack, St.Thomas did not blow up, but was reduced to a floating hulk.  The captain and crew decided the best thing they could do was to scuttle her, thereby trapping the pirates inside Ceuta and blocking the harbour up.  This kind of action does bring a lump to the throat: the Royal Navy is held together by men of that quality.  It also seems to have triggered panic inside Ceuta with the staff of a newly build hospital liaising with other locals to distribute all grain reserves and supplies to the population before they could fall into English hands.  Lord Peterborough does not quite know what to make of this: either there are millions of tons of grain inside the town or they are concerned that the remaining pirates will desert and they will be left to explain why they are occupying what was the main HWIC HQ in North Africa.   Jacobite Naval Intelligence believes the hospital is a front for opium smuggling and distribution, a 'trade' which HWIC is known to have interests in.

In an additional twist a messenger from Chief Zawahir Al-Jayyani has been sent to Lord Peterborough claiming his beach has been walked upon without his permission.  To comply with forum rules, Lord Peterborough’s response must wait until the next newspaper.


3. In Magdeburg the resident general refused to release the city’s grain reserves so 20% of the population starved.  There is no explanation why the city suffered a famine unless it was in a previous month and I missed it.


4. In London the Prussian ambassador tried, and failed, to explain to King James what the difference is between being King of Prussia and King in Prussia.


5. The ever-vigilant Dublin town watch has detained a spy who was making notes of the defences and garrison.  This is not the first such suspicious act to have happened in Ireland over the last few months.  Jacobite Naval Intelligence is investigating parallels between this incident and events in Vienna.


6. King Charles of the Kalmar Union has proudly declared that his navy is now protecting the Baltic from foreign navies, although according to the weather report the Baltic was becalmed this month so even if a foreign navy had tried to sail into the Baltic, it would not have got very far.  It should also be pointed out that much of the Baltic is icebound at this time of year.  Despite a rather eloquent speech seeking to promote co-operations with Russia, an attempt to lease Dannmarksnagore to Russia Far East failed to get the required votes to pass.


7. King Louis of France celebrated All Saints Day and distributed alms to paupers.


8. Chancellor Count Seckendorff of Bavaria continues to struggle to turn his economy around, but is experimenting with potash to improve agricultural yields rather than using the English Norfolk farming system.


9. The 2 countesses on the Grand Tour left Trieste and made for Vienna where they met the English ambassador, the Earl of Kent and explained that they were merely passing through Vienna.  The rather outspoken countess of Teviot demonstrated why her family was keen for her to learn foreign manners by insulting the ambassador.  This led the rather shy Lady Jane to come out of her shell a little, so at least one of them is showing some benefit from the trip.  However the ladies were at this time unaware that a certain sneaky Austrian, Leopold Ignaz, Furst von Dietrichstein, had been following them around like a rather undesirable … well, I am not quite sure what the 18th century word is!  He searched the rooms they had been staying at in Trieste and then inveigled his way into a ball held by the Earl of Kent.  He demanded to know why they “had travelled to Trieste unaccompanied” (a statement which was clearly untrue as they had 5 servants to cater for their needs), and asked why they should start a tour of Europe in the winter.  Fearful that Lady Dorothy would punch him, Lady Jane stated: “we are ladies of independent mind, and do not need your impudence!”  And quite right too.  The towns of Gemany are famous for their Christmas markets, so what other time of year could they visit to experience such pleasures?  

The Earl of Kent was obliged to explain that the title of Furst is held by an immediate vassal of the Emperor and is a rank immediately below that of the Emperor, equivalent in this case to ErbPrinz.  Dietrichstein is in Carinthia, a mountainous region long ruled by the Hapsburgs who have maintained their control through generations of marriage to the local nobility.  It is quite possible that Hapsburg mental instability has been inherited by the 55 year old Erbprinz, which has contributed to his obsession with the countesses.  This is no excuse for such ignoble behaviour though.  Unfortunately this was not the end of the Erbprinz’s obsession for he drew up papers for their arrest which were served as the ladies left the ball, somewhat ruining their schedule and almost certainly causing them to miss the Christmas market!  

Ignaz is claiming that the countesses are spies and he has confiscated their sketches as evidence!  Evidence of what?  Talent as an artist?  Since when has being good at drawing been a crime in Austria?  (As an aside, I am struggling to find any competent Austrian-born artist active during the early 1700s; Austria did produce some decent architects during this period, but not painters until much later, the most famous of which was of course some short eccentric with a stubby moustache called Adolf who also tended to lock women up for no reason).  A formal response will of course be made through the proper channels next month, but for now Jacobite Naval Intelligence is at a loss how to explain to King James that Emperor Joseph treats noble female guests worse than he does goats.  Should King James respond by ordering the incarceration of all goats in England in protest?  It may be that young noble women in Austria expect to be pursued by a half-mad weirdo 3 times older than they are, and when his advances are rejected, be thrown into prison on clearly false charges, but if so then it may become essential for King James to fund missionary efforts to save such women and offer them sanctuary from such attentions in the more civilised and enlightened lands ruled by King James where women are treated with respect, and may even play cricket.


10. The anti-English comments from Spanish representatives in the Imperial Diet have reached a new low, now combined with threats against HRE states if they do not support the Hapsburg line!  That line, as we now know, appears to include throwing innocent noble women in prison.  At least in Berlin, King Frederick has refused to follow Austria’s lead and entertained Princes Dorothea in the style a noble woman has the right to expect.


11. In Poland King Stanislaw (is that King of Poland or King in Poland?) is still struggling to understand what the Russians are going on about, as am I.  The Tsar also seems concerned that someone is stealing grain from Russian merchants, while Moldavia has given 10,000 tons of grain to the Ottomans in Constantinople.  Grain was also the topic of conversation in Russian West Africa.


12. In Rome the English ambassador has queried the church’s alleged shareholding in the Portobello Company while the bishop of Madrid, Cardinal Alphonso, has repeated suggestions for ending the war with the addition of a rather odd concession regarding Martel.  The official response must be given in the next game turn, rather than on the forum.  Spain is also adopting a new type of windmill.


Overall another turn of surprises.  Next month’s income round should provide some evidence of how what Russia describes as “The War of the Companies” has impacted global trade.  I suspect there will be more surprises and disappointments.   Will Spain realise the cost of sheltering Martel is prohibitive and hand him over to King James for trial?   Will the captains of the ships of the Kalmar Union patrolling the Baltic view the Russians as friends or foes irrespective of their orders?  Will the ignoble weirdo Furst von Dietrichstein feed his prisoners with goatmeal ahead of torturing them to further provoke King James?  One thing is for sure – G7 is never dull.

While I greatly enjoy reading about G7 from the viewpoint of James III of England (seems such a warm & fluffy space) think it may help readers understanding of G7 to add some context and even the odd fact/technical detail. G7 being rather keen on technical details but not a game which is noted for allowing the actual facts to spoil a good story:-

1) Last month after failing the failed attempt to break the boon at Ceuta by having HMS Ipswich ram it the English Royal Navy dumped the Earl of Peterborough and his forces off at Belyounech which is the next safe anchorage down the coast from Ceuta. While this makes perfect sence from a Naval viewpoint from a political and military viewpoint an invasion of Morocco followed by a march along rough tracks through the foothills/mountains too the target less than perfect.

Esp as this is the territory of old foes of Lord Peterborough from his time as Gov of Tangier. From which post Peterborough and his Garrison was re-called (pre start of game due to cost of private war he was waging).

The tribes are now demanding £600,000 compensation for damage to trade, Camel fodder eat by Peterborough horse and the prize goats his men cooked etc, etc and have put in a complaint too the Sultan about this outrage to Moroccan sovernignty by the invaders.

It would seem that the Jacobites like their French masters have a total lack of respect for others territorial rights and really, really dislike people who keep goats!

2) The outworks on Mountain Huncho are an old castle which is classed in game as an old citadel. Historically it was a place of for people from the port too run too if they were under threat from the sea. I assume Jacobite Naval Int missed it because when they paid someone to paint the port and its defences their artist probably painted it from Mount Huncho with the castle behind him or her.

Madrid like London assumed the castle was on a hill on other side of port. Which would have made it hard to besiege the port without your siege lines being enfladed by the twenty - 18 pounders in castle (treated like a stand alone stone tower). But in G7 it was inland and guarding approach to the port.

Lord Peterborough field Army basically spent the whole of Nov 1715 held up by a minor outwork held by a single battalion and twenty guns which did not even open fire untill Lord Peterborough started his siege, fairly sure if they had just blasted the head of Peterborough invasion column King Charles would not have minded. This in theory gives the defenders of Ceuta proper more time to get ready for main siege. Time they clearly need since a) Who was the idiot who let the boom down after last month!! and b) Why did the company of skirmishers/scouts take almost the whole month to venture out to take a look at what the hell was going on strength of invaders etc.

3) It should be noted that while Ceuta is a technical part of the Viceroyship of Africa. Martel in his Oran HQ hundreds of miles too the east and with all his other interests/deals etc, etc never showed it any interest compared to say his Arms factory in Bristol, Fish smoking in Whitby, Ship building in France, Spanish Post Office, Fur and Spice trading in America etc etc etc in fact he down right neglected it! Result Ceuta is rather more part of the "Straits Command" which also covers Gibraltar a new miles too the North and Cadiz about a day or so sail too the North West.

Result English may have attacked a port in the Spanish Africa but they are killing Spanish regulars rather than Martels Legionnaires etc and attacking ships of the Spanish customs service/Guarda Coastal. Which would seem to be another failure of by the elderly bishops and lady painters in the Jacobite Int service.

4) The standard Xebec with a lot of sail and oars is a very fast commerce raider esp suited for calm conditions. But while its broardsides of 16 cannon (6 pounders) plus swivels are enough against a merchant ship it is badly outclassed by basically any warship if it goes broadside to broadside.

The Xebec also has 4 x 12 pounders forward facing showing its relation to later Galleys which also had very heavy guns pointing forward for use in boarding attacks. For Guard ship duty the Spanish Navy replaced these 12 pounders with Carronades which are lighter weapons in terms of actual weight (so re-design/stable ship design needed or you screw up its trim) but shooting a heavier shot at close range only.

Normal loaded with 68 one pound grape shot per Carronade the theory being such ships can really mess up ships boat actions trying to lower a harbour boon (ok some idiot forgot to order it up so it auto lowered at Ceuta!) the Carronades can also fire a 68 pound solid shot. Fired at a ships weak bow or stern this can do real harm to a ship which can not manover to use its broadside such as when its becalmed and the Xebec can use its oars or when the larger ship is trying to force a narrow harbour entrance. Which it what did for a mighty English three decker this turn, sadly for Moroccan trade its now totally blocking a major export harbour, so yet more locals upset with the goat stealing/hating English invaders of north Africa.

For most players and positions you are better off spending the cash and recruits on frigates but if you are a Med or Baltic power who want to be a bit different Xebec's can be a fun class and really do not deserve King James saying anyone who sails one is a Corsair.

5) In case anyone is wondering why exactly have the English Jacobites invaded Morocco and attacked a Spanish enclave trade post in North Africa the answer is basically Charles Martel who after two different very inventive players plus influence of Spanish, French and Russian players is probably one of Richards favourite NPC's and the classic charming Rogue of G7. What seems to be known or claimed about him is that:-

- In 1700 he started out as Chairman of the Honourable West Indies Company then English registered with its HQ on Jamacia.

- He claimed to be a son of Charles II of England and a lady from Flanders born while Charles II was in exile. Being a questionable birth of Charles II of England is no great claim since he had loads of them. What the Martel player did however claim was that Charles II and his mother were married and he was the legitimate Catholic King of England. He tried at various times when England was NPC or really unpopular to try and interest both the French and the Spanish in this claim which caused the official Jacobite line of James II when active to suffer and major sence of humour failure and want Martels head on a spike.

- At times he had close relations with France and the French Crown purchased shares in the HWIC and still hosts HWIC missions on its territory etc. For a while the HWIC even had its registered HQ on French territory after they captured Jamacia from the English. James III of England has tried to blacken Martel reputation in France by blameing him for financial scandel at the French Treasury. A scandel for which the French invaded and annexed Genoa an act which scared the Italian and Imperial Princes half too death.

- Oddly while claiming to be a Catholic heir Martel/HWIC cultivated close relations with the Dutch Government and his American volunteers sided with the Dutch Army in the war of the English Succession against his Jacobite relations. Probably because of a player clash and James III wanting his uncles head on a spike. HWIC is believed to now be mostly Dutch based and registered were the Dutch HWIC may be trying to seperate itself from Martel and his somewhat toxic reputation.

- In America's the HWIC is a foe and rival of Blackbeard but both factions seem to get on ok with Russians in colonies so its a bit mixed up.

- In many ways Martels longest and most profitable relationship is was with Hapsburg Spain and he set up and registered various new companies in Spanish territory including the Spanish Post Office, the Royal Bank of Africa and the Portobello company. The later was a huge success for him and his investors but the first two went bust and needed to be taken over and re-financed by the Spanish Crown at huge cost. This rather dented his deputation in Spain but not enough to get him sacked as Spanish Viceroy of North Africa, probably because the Hapsburgs do not want to be seen as bowing to outside pressure.

From talks in Rome and following pressure from the Pope to avoid the mass slaughter of Catholics which a war between Spain and France could involve it does however seem that if James III (a semi Catholic in personal beliefs but a active head of the Protestant Church of England) agress to stop attacking Spanish ships etc under a paper thin guise of looking for Pirates the Spanish will agree to fund Catholic schools in British Isles and ask Martel to leave Spanish territory.

Big question now in G7 is will this be enough for James III? or will he defy the Pope and the the possible anger of the House of Austria and Moroccan Sultans in pursuit of his illegitimate?/legitimate uncle? And if he does defy the Papal wishes and the House of Austria after what too many looks like a good offer will be still have French support?

Finally if James III accepts the offer and Martel has to pack his bags and leave Spain where next for this dashing rogue?

Stuart Bailey wrote:While I greatly enjoy reading about G7 from the viewpoint of James III of England (seems such a warm & fluffy space) think it may help readers understanding of G7 to add some context and even the odd fact/technical detail.  G7 being rather keen on technical details but not a game which is noted for allowing the actual facts to spoil a good story:-

I'm glad you find it entertaining, Stuart.  Clearly there are some aspects of your post which I cannot comment on without breaking forum rules, but it is necessary to clarify a few of your assertions:

Stuart Bailey wrote:
1) Last month after failing the failed attempt to break the boon at Ceuta by having HMS Ipswich ram it the English Royal Navy dumped the Earl of Peterborough and his forces off at Belyounech which is the next safe anchorage down the coast from Ceuta.  While this makes perfect sence from a Naval viewpoint from a political and military viewpoint an invasion of Morocco followed by a march along rough tracks through the foothills/mountains too the target less than perfect.

Esp as this is the territory of old foes of Lord Peterborough from his time as Gov of Tangier.  From which post Peterborough and his Garrison was re-called (pre start of game due to cost of private war he was waging).

The tribes are now demanding £600,000 compensation for damage to trade, Camel fodder eat by Peterborough horse and the prize goats his men cooked etc, etc and have put in a complaint too the Sultan about this outrage to Moroccan sovernignty by the invaders.

It would seem that the Jacobites like their French masters have a total lack of respect for others territorial rights and really, really dislike people who keep goats!

I was wondering how much 1 Ashrafi was, so if correct that is most useful, thank you.

I should also make it clear that while I am not particularly keen on goats as animals (smelly, try to eat everything in the vicinity of their mouth, etc), I can appreciate that in certain landscapes they can be beneficial.  However, just as the in-game joke about Russian ships struggling to remain afloat has taken on a life of its own, so has the fascination of Emperor Joseph with the goat.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
2) The outworks on Mountain Huncho are an old castle which is classed in game as an old citadel.  Historically it was a place of for people from the port too run too if they were under threat from the sea.  I assume Jacobite Naval Int missed it because when they paid someone to paint the port and its defences their artist probably painted it from Mount Huncho with the castle behind him or her.

Madrid like London assumed the castle was on a hill on other side of port.  Which would have made it hard to besiege the port without your siege lines being enfladed by the twenty - 18 pounders in castle (treated like a stand alone stone tower).  But in G7 it was inland and guarding approach to the port.

Lord Peterborough field Army basically spent the whole of Nov 1715 held up by a minor outwork held by a single battalion and twenty guns which did not even open fire untill Lord Peterborough started his siege, fairly sure if they had just blasted the head of Peterborough invasion column King Charles would not have minded.  This in theory gives the defenders of Ceuta proper more time to get ready for main siege.  Time they clearly need since a) Who was the idiot who let the boom down after last month!! and b) Why did the company of skirmishers/scouts take almost the whole month to venture out to take a look at what the hell was going on strength of invaders etc.

When both Spain and England make the same mistake concerning the location of a castle it is perhaps worth examining the real life map which ... does indeed locate the castle on top of the hill (on the other side of the town) overlooking a rather generous harbour.  Of course we have to accept that this development of Ceuta must have happened later than 1700, and the gazetteer entry for Ceuta also references the castle guarding the landward approach, so it looks like we both misunderstood its location.  I would also like to point out that Jacobite Naval Intelligence made its observations on the layout from on board ship (and from previous visits during earlier wars).  It is actually rather difficult to draw or paint from a ship!

That the "idiot who let the boom down" clearly ignored any orders from Spain to keep it in place, does suggest that Spain is not in control of Ceuta, or at least that Spanish orders are not being followed by the defenders.  I can confirm that no-one linked in any way to Jacobite Naval Intelligence lowered the chain boom so this must have been the usual HWIC/pirate/Spanish blunder.  From experience during the campaign in Scotland, it is quite possible for a town to appear on a player's asset list but actually respond to orders from outside.  Indeed it is rather irritating when that happens, but perhaps one of the many hidden features of the game.  If I did have agents inside Ceuta able to control events then I would not have needed to send in troops/ships at all.  So the only other conclusion is that the forces inside the town are more loyal to Martel/HWIC/pirates than they are to Spain.  

During a particularly chaotic game period for England, Martel was going around isolated colonies infiltrating units and changing their affiliation, but then leaving them in position until he had decided what to do with them. This is how the Africa Regiment ended up in America. I don't know how he did it (whether they just disappeared from the asset list and the player didn't notice or whether it was through gradually increasing SL with the missing men being assumed to have died or deserted to Martel-controlled units), but surely the governor of the colony should have noticed when his garrison disappeared and then reappeared in a rebel town on another continent? I also don't know how they managed to continue drawing English pay during this period, but I guess I'm just not that good at using spy orders effectively. One lesson from my own experience is never underestimate how sneaky Martel can be and how deeply embedded into another position he can place himself. Martel/HWIC are experts are causing trouble and it takes a great deal of effort to deal with them. A player who does not look at the detail of his lists and question everything is easily taken in.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
3) It should be noted that while Ceuta is a technical part of the Viceroyship of Africa.  Martel in his Oran HQ hundreds of miles too the east and with all his other interests/deals etc, etc never showed it any interest compared to say his Arms factory in Bristol, Fish smoking in Whitby, Ship building in France, Spanish Post Office, Fur and Spice trading in America etc etc etc in fact he down right neglected it!  Result Ceuta is rather more part of the "Straits Command" which also covers Gibraltar a new miles too the North and Cadiz about a day or so sail too the North West.

Result English may have attacked a port in the Spanish Africa but they are killing Spanish regulars rather than Martels Legionnaires etc and attacking ships of the Spanish customs service/Guarda Coastal.  Which would seem to be another failure of by the elderly bishops and lady painters in the Jacobite Int service.

Neither bishops nor lady painters are employed by Jacobite Naval Intelligence!

Part of the problem with England's longstanding campaign against pirates and factions is that it is not at all clear who owns what.  This could, and in my opinion should, have been cleared up a long time ago if Spain had simply arrested Martel and shot him, then reintegrated all the activities and territories Spain gave to him back into Spain, HWIC and Portobello Company (etc) would then have ceased to exist.  Instead (and for reasons many will never understand) Stuart found it convenient to keep them active under his control.  This, I suggest, allowed him to blame HWIC for any botched Spanish plans and use them as a cover for various nefarious activities which otherwise would have hit Spanish honour.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
4) The standard Xebec with a lot of sail and oars is a very fast commerce raider esp suited for calm conditions.  But while its broardsides of 16 cannon (6 pounders) plus swivels are enough against a merchant ship it is badly outclassed by basically any warship if it goes broadside to broadside.

The Xebec also has 4 x 12 pounders forward facing showing its relation to later Galleys which also had very heavy guns pointing forward for use in boarding attacks.  For Guard ship duty the Spanish Navy replaced these 12 pounders with Carronades which are lighter weapons in terms of actual weight (so re-design/stable ship design needed or you screw up its trim) but shooting a heavier shot at close range only.

Normal loaded with 68 one pound grape shot per Carronade the theory being such ships can really mess up ships boat actions trying to lower a harbour boon (ok some idiot forgot to order it up so it auto lowered at Ceuta!) the Carronades can also fire a 68 pound solid shot.  Fired at a ships weak bow or stern this can do real harm to a ship which can not manover to use its broadside such as when its becalmed and the Xebec can use its oars or when the larger ship is trying to force a narrow harbour entrance.  Which it what did for a mighty English three decker this turn, sadly for Moroccan trade its now totally blocking a major export harbour, so yet more locals upset with the goat stealing/hating English invaders of north Africa.

For most players and positions you are better off spending the cash and recruits on frigates but if you are a Med or Baltic power who want to be a bit different Xebec's can be a fun class and really do not deserve King James saying anyone who sails one is a Corsair.

Thank you for clarifying ... 68pdrs are even more unstable than 52pdrs.

I have always appreciated the specialised use of the flexibility of the Xebec.  It has oars so it can still move in becalmed seas, and sail for other times.  Its armament is supposed to be light, though, because it is similar to a galley.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
5) In case anyone is wondering why exactly have the English Jacobites invaded Morocco and attacked a Spanish enclave trade post in North Africa the answer is basically Charles Martel who after two different very inventive players plus influence of Spanish, French and Russian players is probably one of Richards favourite NPC's and the classic charming Rogue of G7.  What seems to be known or claimed about him is that:-

- In 1700 he started out as Chairman of the Honourable West Indies Company then English registered with its HQ on Jamacia.

- He claimed to be a son of Charles II of England and a lady from Flanders born while Charles II was in exile.  Being a questionable birth of Charles II of England is no great claim since he had loads of them.  What the Martel player did however claim was that Charles II and his mother were married and he was the legitimate Catholic King of England.  He tried at various times when England was NPC or really unpopular to try and interest both the French and the Spanish in this claim which caused the official Jacobite line of James II when active to suffer and major sence of humour failure and want Martels head on a spike.

- At times he had close relations with France and the French Crown purchased shares in the HWIC and still hosts HWIC missions on its territory etc.  For a while the HWIC even had its registered HQ on French territory after they captured Jamacia from the English.  James III of England has tried to blacken Martel reputation in France by blameing him for financial scandel at the French Treasury.  A scandel for which the French invaded and annexed Genoa an act which scared the Italian and Imperial Princes half too death.

- Oddly while claiming to be a Catholic heir Martel/HWIC cultivated close relations with the Dutch Government and his American volunteers sided with the Dutch Army in the war of the English Succession against his Jacobite relations.  Probably because of a player clash and James III wanting his uncles head on a spike.  HWIC is believed to now be mostly Dutch based and registered were the Dutch HWIC may be trying to seperate itself from Martel and his somewhat toxic reputation.

- In America's the HWIC is a foe and rival of Blackbeard but both factions seem to get on ok with Russians in colonies so its a bit mixed up.

- In many ways Martels longest and most profitable relationship is was with Hapsburg Spain and he set up and registered various new companies in Spanish territory including the Spanish Post Office, the Royal Bank of Africa and the Portobello company.  The later was a huge success for him and his investors but the first two went bust and needed to be taken over and re-financed by the Spanish Crown at huge cost.  This rather dented his deputation in Spain but not enough to get him sacked as Spanish Viceroy of North Africa, probably because the Hapsburgs do not want to be seen as bowing to outside pressure.

Unless he has changed his name (again?), the troublesome character is called Roger Martel (or Roderigo Martello), not Charles Martel who in real history lived sometime around the time of Charlemagne.  I would hardly call Roger Martel a 'charming rogue'!  

You forgot to mention that earlier in the game the player went to court in an attempt to prove his claim to the English crown and the case was thrown out, yet Stuart's myth persists that he is in some way related to the House of Stuart.  He is not!

England's war against HWIC has been going on for about a decade, so predates the Desmarets fraud.  What we are seeing now is simply the latest phase of a long-running conflict which would have been successfully concluded years ago had Spain not kept HWIC/Martel alive at (as Stuart has admitted) "huge cost"!   The question we may soon get an answer to is whether the huge cost (to Spain) of propping up Martel is now greater than the money he has stolen from England and France, etc, and whether the arithmetic of the situation will finally penetrate the Hapsburg brain (known to be one of the most dense substances in the world) and they change their stance.

Another point worth reminding Stuart of is that under the peace terms (still in force) agreed with UDP, UDP shut down all HWIC and associated operations, removing them entirely from their territory and colonies.  It would therefore be illegal for HWIC to operate in UDP, be owned by UDP or be encouraged in any way by UDP (directly or indirectly).  If there is evidence that UDP are breaking the treaty the consequences are contained within that treaty.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Finally if James III accepts the offer and Martel has to pack his bags and leave Spain where next for this dashing rogue?

It would be an interesting line of speculation how Martel would survive without retaining some links to Spain.  In his career he has been indulged by both England and France before he turned on them and betrayed them to Spain; as mentioned above he is banned from UDP.  Any nation which shelters him is inevitably going to find it impossible to maintain friendly relations with England.  So he will have to use some of the millions he stole from France and England, to buy protection.  Even then it is unlikely he will be able to hide anywhere for long ... Jacobite Naval Intelligence tracked down Blackbeard after Spain failed to do so for over a decade, so I suspect it will only be a matter of time before he is found.  None of this, of course, lets the beneficial owners of HWIC/Portobello Company (i.e. Spain) off the hook for the liabilities, so if Martel 'disappears' it changes nothing and is likely to make any kind of peace even harder to agree.

Papa Clement wrote:

The 2 countesses on the Grand Tour left Trieste and made for Vienna where they met the English ambassador, the Earl of Kent and explained that they were merely passing through Vienna.  The rather outspoken countess of Teviot demonstrated why her family was keen for her to learn foreign manners by insulting the ambassador.  This led the rather shy Lady Jane to come out of her shell a little, so at least one of them is showing some benefit from the trip.  However the ladies were at this time unaware that a certain sneaky Austrian, Leopold Ignaz, Furst von Dietrichstein, had been following them around like a rather undesirable … well, I am not quite sure what the 18th century word is!  He searched the rooms they had been staying at in Trieste and then inveigled his way into a ball held by the Earl of Kent.  He demanded to know why they “had travelled to Trieste unaccompanied” (a statement which was clearly untrue as they had 5 servants to cater for their needs), and asked why they should start a tour of Europe in the winter.  Fearful that Lady Dorothy would punch him, Lady Jane stated: “we are ladies of independent mind, and do not need your impudence!”  And quite right too.  The towns of Gemany are famous for their Christmas markets, so what other time of year could they visit to experience such pleasures?  

The Earl of Kent was obliged to explain that the title of Furst is held by an immediate vassal of the Emperor and is a rank immediately below that of the Emperor, equivalent in this case to ErbPrinz.  Dietrichstein is in Carinthia, a mountainous region long ruled by the Hapsburgs who have maintained their control through generations of marriage to the local nobility.  It is quite possible that Hapsburg mental instability has been inherited by the 55 year old Erbprinz, which has contributed to his obsession with the countesses.  This is no excuse for such ignoble behaviour though.  Unfortunately this was not the end of the Erbprinz’s obsession for he drew up papers for their arrest which were served as the ladies left the ball, somewhat ruining their schedule and almost certainly causing them to miss the Christmas market!  

Ignaz is claiming that the countesses are spies and he has confiscated their sketches as evidence!  Evidence of what?  Talent as an artist?  Since when has being good at drawing been a crime in Austria?  (As an aside, I am struggling to find any competent Austrian-born artist active during the early 1700s; Austria did produce some decent architects during this period, but not painters until much later, the most famous of which was of course some short eccentric with a stubby moustache called Adolf who also tended to lock women up for no reason).  A formal response will of course be made through the proper channels next month, but for now Jacobite Naval Intelligence is at a loss how to explain to King James that Emperor Joseph treats noble female guests worse than he does goats.  Should King James respond by ordering the incarceration of all goats in England in protest?  It may be that young noble women in Austria expect to be pursued by a half-mad weirdo 3 times older than they are, and when his advances are rejected, be thrown into prison on clearly false charges, but if so then it may become essential for King James to fund missionary efforts to save such women and offer them sanctuary from such attentions in the more civilised and enlightened lands ruled by King James where women are treated with respect, and may even play cricket.

Sending young ladies to capture in oils on canvas the layout of Trieste Harbour really is shameful. Why, if they were going on a Grand Tour did they not start in Florence or Rome, much more obvious destinations. Accompanied by 5 'servants', these people are hardly suitable chaperones. I am amazed they managed to get across the Alps unscathed. Everyone knows the Alpine passes are full of wolves, brigands and rebels at this time of year. In fact most times of the year. The Goats move to lower pastures in winter. To visit Christmas Markets you say? I think Bruges or Hamburg might have been better...and closer and probably more interesting.

Your knowledge of the 18th Century art is clearly limited. Johann Gottfried Auerbach b.1697 for example who later became Court Painter and member of the Academy of Fine Arts. Or perhaps Paul Strudel, better known as the Baron von Strudel. Artist, sculptor and engineer, also baked a mean apfel pie.

I don't know who this moustachioed Adolf is but he sounds quite awful. We shall send him to Berlin if he turns up in Vienna. The Prussians can deal with him.

Vauban wrote:Sending young ladies to capture in oils on canvas the layout of Trieste Harbour really is shameful. Why, if they were going on a Grand Tour did they not start in Florence or Rome, much more obvious destinations. Accompanied by 5 'servants', these people are hardly suitable chaperones. I am amazed they managed to get across the Alps unscathed. Everyone knows the Alpine passes are full of wolves, brigands and rebels at this time of year. In fact most times of the year. The Goats move to lower pastures in winter. To visit Christmas Markets you say? I think Bruges or Hamburg might have been better...and closer and probably more interesting.

Your knowledge of the 18th Century art is clearly limited. Johann Gottfried Auerbach b.1697 for example who later became Court Painter and member of the Academy of Fine Arts. Or perhaps Paul Strudel, better known as the Baron von Strudel. Artist, sculptor and engineer, also baked a mean apfel pie.

I don't know who this moustachioed Adolf is but he sounds quite awful. We shall send him to Berlin if he turns up in Vienna. The Prussians can deal with him.

Without wishing to start a long debate over the unfounded and unproven allegations against the 2 countesses (which may anticipate matters which will be dealt with in the next turn), I should perhaps point out that Florence and Rome are in Italy (to get to Germany from there would have necessitated a dangerous crossing of the Alps in poor weather), Bruges in Flanders (where English ships would no doubt have been fired upon), and to get to Hamburg could have been misinterpreted by the Kalmar Union as being too close the Baltic (which as we know they are getting a bit paranoid about).

If it helps your investigation may I suggest that you find out:
1) if their rooms in Trieste overlooked the harbour or other defences?
2) if any sketches drawn by them were of the harbour or defences?

If the answer to these questions is in the negative, then clearly they are innocent.  Since they appear to have only stayed overnight in Trieste, I doubt they would have had much time to see or draw anything, but of course such common sense does not seem to have been demonstrated by any Hapsburg since 1700 in G7.

I'm sure the alpine passes cannot be that dangerous unless the wolves have multiplied by eating goats.  Besides, part of the joy of being an artist is that you pick the most interesting and scenic routes to sketch.  Travel is not a destination, but a process ... that is the point of the Grand Tour.  Of course if, following their experiences in Vienna, other travellers decide that Austria is to be avoided by people of quality then the world deserves to be informed.  Do not be surprised if a short and rather unpleasant individual with a certain bodily deformity, answering to the name Adolf, mysteriously appears in Vienna and starts following Furst von Dietrichstein around asking impertinent questions and then gets a few of his mates from the local bierkeller to grab him and throw him in the ice cold waters of the Danube to cool off if he doesn't withdraw the charges against the countesses.  Indeed I can imagine that this scandal will very quickly hit the broadsheets and cartoons will circulate in the more select courts in Europe ridiculing what has happened.  Although Defoe is busy on the other side of the world, perhaps Swift will be able to chronicle the insults made to the countesses and the diplomatic blunders of the Viennese will become a regular serial in the newspaper?

I do not claim to have much knowledge of Austrian artists, but Auerbach was not considered a good enough painter to receive a court appointment until 1735 and even then did not become a member of the Austrian academy of fine arts until 1750, 3 years before his death.   This is hardly a ringing endorsement of his ability, but then if artists are treated so badly that they are thrown into jail by lecherous degenerates then perhaps it is no surprise that Austrians who show artistic talent prefer to spend their time in Italy where they may be appreciated.

I would like to point out that under the enlightened and artistic rule of the Hapsburg Family the Madrid printing presses produce the monthly "Royal Academy guide to the Arts". The Valencia Academy of Art has developed Improved oil painting techniques and the Valencia School and the Prada has devloped into one of the greatest Art collections in the World !!

So being visited and lectured on art by some foul mouthed northern harridan gutter snipe is about as popular with the Royal House of Austria as being visited by elderly English bishops who visit and then clutter up our streets and inns with their dead bodies. Fairly sure that as soon as some Bishop gets TB or something then English doctors seem to think a couple of months of healthy sea air and somewhere warmer is the best cure. What about a spot of sea bathing in the Russian White Sea instead?

But while a insult to our Art's in one thing..........no one insults Hapsburg Goats and gets away with it!

Stuart Bailey wrote:I would like to point out that under the enlightened and artistic rule of the Hapsburg Family the Madrid printing presses produce the monthly "Royal Academy guide to the Arts". The Valencia Academy of Art has developed Improved oil painting techniques and the Valencia School and the Prada has devloped into one of the greatest Art collections in the World !!

I am happy to agree that Spanish art is indeed painted to a high standard.  Unfortunately the Spanish taste is for extremes, so the Prada may well contain the greatest collection of technically accomplished art in the world, but the subjects are so offputting that it is necessary for the "Royal Academy guide to the Arts" to be published monthly to encourage people to go to the gallery.  That is, of course, assuming that the Prada is not under the management of a certain Roderigo Martello in which case it may well be full of pictures captured by pirates or purchased with stolen money.

Stuart Bailey wrote:So being visited and lectured on art by some foul mouthed northern harridan gutter snipe is about as popular with the Royal House of Austria as being visited by elderly English bishops who visit and then clutter up our streets and inns with their dead bodies.  Fairly sure that as soon as some Bishop gets TB or something then English doctors seem to think a couple of months of healthy sea air and somewhere warmer is the best cure.  What about a spot of sea bathing in the Russian White Sea instead?

Good artists are not concerned with popularity.

Unfortunately the Russian White Sea is also icebound this time of year, but I will seriously consider your suggestion.

Stuart Bailey wrote:But while a insult to our Art's in one thing..........no one insults Hapsburg Goats and gets away with it!

Please don't distress yourself Stuart, I've just written a very interesting order concerning goats which I hope you will read about this coming turn.

"I should perhaps point out that Florence and Rome are in Italy (to get to Germany from there would have necessitated a dangerous crossing of the Alps in poor weather)"

erm...so thay landed in Trieste and headed to Vienna which necessitated a dangerous crossing of the Alps in poor weather!


"Since they appear to have only stayed overnight in Trieste, I doubt they would have had much time to see or draw anything, but of course such common sense does not seem to have been demonstrated by any Hapsburg since 1700 in G7."

erm, it was reported they had sketched Trieste in last month's newspaper.

You seem rather confused...not with it......I suggest you have a lay down!

[quote

"Since they appear to have only stayed overnight in Trieste, I doubt they would have had much time to see or draw anything, but of course such common sense does not seem to have been demonstrated by any Hapsburg since 1700 in G7."[/i]

[/quote]


I think picking on G7 Hapsburgs as lacking in common sence is a bit extreme since compared to Hapsburgs in other games the G7 varity seem a generally united family which has since 1700 stayed loyal to its each other, its principals and even the allies it started the game with not aways easy when main starting ally in G7 was England. Some of whose leading ministers like Churchill and Godolphin have either been nuts or turncoats.

Compared to Hapsburgs in other games games feel it only fair too point out that the G7 type have:

a) Not had any miracle babies (G9 & G10).

b) Not had any really nasty family feuds (G9 & G10 again)

c) Not thrown the Imperial Crown away in a hissy fit, converted to Islam or invaded Prussia when its allied to Sweden, Poland and Prussia. Or invaded Rumelia probably by accident and due to dodgy maps (G2).

d) Have not had family members excommunicated (G2 & G10)

It should also be pointed out that the Hapsburg family in G7 have held the line against French, English and Ottoman aggression and have not to date lost a single inch of Hapsburg land. In fact they have even recovered some of their pre 1700 losses while making real progress with the settlement of the America's. Which is a somewhat better record than the Hapsburgs in several other games of Glori who have abandoned Flanders to the French, sold Manila, lost most of the Empire to Bourbons and Ottomans etc, etc.

Finally in G7 we breed better quality goats.

Vauban wrote:"I should perhaps point out that Florence and Rome are in Italy (to get to Germany from there would have necessitated a dangerous crossing of the Alps in poor weather)"

erm...so thay landed in Trieste and headed to Vienna which necessitated a dangerous crossing of the Alps in poor weather!

Had they landed in Florence or Rome they would have taken a month to reach the Alps, then had to cross as the weather worsened.  I suppose they could have landed in Genoa instead, but a similar problem would have arisen.  Clearly Richard decided it was best for them to land in the closest port they could which happened to be Trieste.

Vauban wrote:"Since they appear to have only stayed overnight in Trieste, I doubt they would have had much time to see or draw anything, but of course such common sense does not seem to have been demonstrated by any Hapsburg since 1700 in G7."

erm, it was reported they had sketched Trieste in last month's newspaper.

No confusion from me ... the precise quotation from the newspaper is as follows: "Lady Dorothy had been making sketches while at sea, and has also done so in Trieste."  It does not say that she made sketches of Trieste, but in Trieste.  A rather curious parallel to being King of Prussia or King in Prussia?

Stuart Bailey wrote:I think picking on G7 Hapsburgs as lacking in common sence is a bit extreme since compared to Hapsburgs in other games the G7 varity seem a generally united family which has since 1700 stayed loyal to its each other, its principals and even the allies it started the game with not aways easy when main starting ally in G7 was England.  Some of whose leading ministers like Churchill and Godolphin have either been nuts or turncoats.    

Compared to Hapsburgs in other games games feel it only fair too point out that the G7 type have:

a) Not had any miracle babies (G9 & G10).

b) Not had any really nasty family feuds (G9 & G10 again)

c) Not thrown the Imperial Crown away in a hissy fit, converted to Islam or invaded Prussia when its allied to Sweden, Poland and Prussia.  Or invaded Rumelia probably by accident and due to dodgy maps (G2).    

d) Have not had family members excommunicated (G2 & G10)

It should also be pointed out that the Hapsburg family in G7 have held the line against French, English and Ottoman aggression and have not to date lost a single inch of Hapsburg land.  In fact they have even recovered some of their pre 1700 losses while making real progress with the settlement of the America's.  Which is a somewhat better record than the Hapsburgs in several other games of Glori who have abandoned Flanders to the French, sold Manila, lost most of the Empire to Bourbons and Ottomans etc, etc.

Finally in G7 we breed better quality goats.

Perhaps the reason Hapsburgs have done relatively better in G7 than other games is for 3 reasons:

1. Stuart has played Spain since the start, consistently and successfully - a single long term player in a key position is likely to make more progress than a position which has undergone several changes or civil wars.

2. Unlike some games, G7 has a number of players who try to keep it grounded in history rather than some of the wacky ideas appearing in other games as Stuart notes.

3. By using HWIC/Portobello Company and other factions to do the dodgy things, Spain has been able to separate the most damaging consequences of her actions from her position.


I am willing to concede that Hapsburg goats in G7 are by far the best quality goat bred in any game of LGDR.  Still smelly and rather unpleasant creatures, though.

Papa Clement wrote:

Perhaps the reason Hapsburgs have done relatively better in G7 than other games is for 3 reasons:

1. Stuart has played Spain since the start, consistently and successfully - a single long term player in a key position is likely to make more progress than a position which has undergone several changes or civil wars.

2. Unlike some games, G7 has a number of players who try to keep it grounded in history rather than some of the wacky ideas appearing in other games as Stuart notes.

3. By using HWIC/Portobello Company and other factions to do the dodgy things, Spain has been able to separate the most damaging consequences of her actions from her position.


I am willing to concede that Hapsburg goats in G7 are by far the best quality goat bred in any game of LGDR.  Still smelly and rather unpleasant creatures, though.

Ref the Hapsburgs in G7:

a) Spain started G7 with two players a Bourbon and a Hapsburg faction leader (both giving orders to the same asset list.....if orders contradicted each other such as same Naval force being ordered to drill by one faction and move by another nothing would happen as Officiers sought "clarification").   Think Richards theory was that this was bound to start a power struggle in Spain and other players would pitch in on one side or the other to get their favoured option crowned probably leading to a civil war in Spain and the War of the Spanish Succession.

Also avoided Spanish players sitting round trying to pretend there was no succession crisis and inventing miracle babies.  You were either Hapsburg or Bourbon from the start with no mucking around.

Not sure why this has not been repeated in other games - Lack of Spanish players?  Players not being keen on being in a probable civil war/crisis situation from the start?  This was certainly the feeling of the Spanish Bourbon player who wanted a "normal" state building position with a side order of invade Portugal probably allied to France (Not a bad plan apart for the other half of the Royal Council) and decided that a probably destructive political power struggle game was not really what he wanted and dropped out after very nicely declaring his character and faction to be loyal Hapsburgs.  A decision helped by his faction being snubbed and abandoned by France which at the time had very little interest in dynastic politics and had developed a lasser like focus on its naval-colonial struggle with the Anglo-Dutch.  Who in their turn seemed really keen on seeing France get dragged into a Spanish civil war and basically fighting France to the last Hapsburg.

Result was basically a crushing Hapsburg victory in a War of the Spanish Succession which never happened.  Not sure that Spanish Bourbon faction even considered it a defeat as they had decided they were Spanish patriots first and only. And that a legitimate male Monarch from from the existing Royal house who kept everyone in office, did not cut anyones head off, married a native Queen and went native at a rate of knots was ok by them. Certainly a lot more stable and less problomatic result for Spain than in some other games of Glori.

2) Victory in the WSS which never was when his second son was crowned in Madrid sent the Holy Roman Emperor rocketing to the top of the honour table, but gained Vienna not a single extra inch of land or head of poplution.  Which some players would no doubt view as a bit of a failure if you messure the success of your position in material terms like gaining control of the Duchy of Milan, Naples, Flanders etc.  Rather than in terms of honour or dynastic/political advantage.

In both G9 and G10 you have a sort of Habsburg government in Madrid but Austria has taken Milan and other lands from Spain leading to shall we say a degree of "bad feeling" and badly damaged the family alliance compared to G7.  While a lot is down to having a Habsburg Government in Spain and the only two players of Austria wanting to play in a dynastic manner I do not think Austria + Milan - Spanish hostility over "stolen duchy" is actually in a  better position than Josef of Austria in G7 less direct control of Milan - but crowned in Emperor in Frankfurt of a Empire which includes Milan, Savoy and Flanders.  While his younger brother spent a fortune on rebuilding his shattered (by the French) army and glad handing (Spain views it as hospitality others might say bribes) to turn the Imperial Election from a Election into crowning by universal aclimation.

b) Spain has not really used the HWIC/Portobello position for anything.  Apart from gaining some shipwright missions and some ship designs (which they also provided too France and no doubt several other powers) I would say that the two players of this minor position have "used" Spain rather than the other way round.  Counting as a native company with 3% tax rate and posts which have included Postmaster General (untill the Post Office went bust) and Spanish Viceroy of Africa with a budget from Madrid is not a bad deal for some bespoke English designs like East India-men etc.

If anyone wants to become the third Martel they probably need to enjoy a minor position in deep, deep hot water.  Currently the whole board of Directors is facing treason charges in England for backing the wrong side.  England and France have both declared war on the HWIC (but not Spain) though that seems more like a attempt to attack Spanish shipping while not triggering Spanish mutual defence treaties.  You may also require six months to find a new home as Spain caves in too pressure from the Pope (at least they are not caving in too pressure from England for your head) and you can not even use you own company name in the UDP because a Dutch company already owns it.

Its tough being a CEO !!

Stuart Bailey wrote:Ref the Hapsburgs in G7:

a) Spain started G7 with two players a Bourbon and a Hapsburg faction leader (both giving orders to the same asset list.....if orders contradicted each other such as same Naval force being ordered to drill by one faction and move by another nothing would happen as Officiers sought "clarification").   Think Richards theory was that this was bound to start a power struggle in Spain and other players would pitch in on one side or the other to get their favoured option crowned probably leading to a civil war in Spain and the War of the Spanish Succession.

Also avoided Spanish players sitting round trying to pretend there was no succession crisis and inventing miracle babies.  You were either Hapsburg or Bourbon from the start with no mucking around.

Not sure why this has not been repeated in other games - Lack of Spanish players?  Players not being keen on being in a probable civil war/crisis situation from the start?  This was certainly the feeling of the Spanish Bourbon player who wanted a "normal" state building position with a side other of invade Portugal probably allied to France (Not a bad plan apart for the other half of the Royal Council) and decided that a probably destructive political power struggle game was not really what he wanted and dropped out after very nicely declaring his character and faction to be loyal Hapsburgs.  A decision helped by his faction being snubbed and abandoned by France which at the time had very little interest in dynastic politics and had developed a laser like focus on its naval-colonial struggle with the Anglo-Dutch.  Who in their turn seemed really keen on seeing France get dragged into a Spanish civil war and basically fighting France to the last Hapsburg.

Result was basically a crushing Hapsburg victory in a War of the Spanish Succession which never happened.  Not sure that Spanish Bourbon faction even considered it a defeat as they had decided they were Spanish patriots first and only and an legitimate male Monarch from from the existing loyal house who kept everyone in office, did not cut anyone's head off, married a loyal Queen and went native at a rate of knots was ok by them.  As certainly a lot more stable and less problematic result for Spain than some in some other games of Glori.

To achieve diplomatic aims without fighting a long war would be a victory, however this is not quite what happened.  It is true that in the early years of the game France pursued a policy of peace, signing treaties with both Spain and Austria, which put France close to the top of the honour board as well.  The treaty with Spain was the Treaty of Ghent which basically gave France a couple of towns to straighten the border with Flanders and gave Spain the space to sort her own succession problems out without being stabbed in the back.  Was this a French mistake?  I don't think so, just positive play in the hope that if you treat others fairly they will reciprocate. Austria was not very keen on the Treaty of Ghent, but it had been signed before she could do anything about it. France had other concerns because for nearly a year England had been in breach of a treaty to supply dredgers and after a year of diplomatic failure and insults, France decided the only way to deal with England was to declare war.  With both Spain and Austria bound by treaties it was somewhat of a surprise that 3 months after signing her treaty with France, Austria pulled out of a proposed marriage, broke the treaty and declared war.  With most of France's troops by then in England (and the game mechanism only allowing 4 military change orders per turn), this gave Austria about a year's worth of free moves to overrun large parts of France.  To Spain's credit, she did not declare war in support of Austria until 3 years after the Treaty of Ghent had been signed, but by then the war was effectively over.  However, by this time HWIC had become fully under Spanish control and they were certainly acting against France/England during this time under (I think) a separate player, but this does not necessarily mean Spain did not influence what they did - indeed, it is virtually certain HWIC was played as part of a Spanish-led team position given Spain was providing the money, recruits and allowed the player to run various Spanish colonies!  HWIC continued to do this after peace was signed which does suggest that Spain continued to fight a proxy war against England using HWIC and other Spanish factions (Jesuits?) to try it on against an England that was rapidly sliding into chaos.

It would appear that Austria was determined on war with France - the Spanish Succession was the expected conflict, but when this didn't arise, she took advantage of the war between France and England, irrespective of the consequences. The WSS didn't happen, but the War of the English Succession did involving nearly all of Europe at one time or another.  The French-English war ultimately was resolved in the favour of France who succeeded in restoring King James and removing William, changing the balance of power within Europe by cementing an Anglo-French alliance.  Austria did gain Franche-Comte and I think Spain gained the odd colony, but otherwise, I would not call this a Hapsburg victory.  In a sense Austria undermined the Spanish diplomatic achievement of the Treaty of Ghent (which despite the HWIC issue did generally lead to cordial relations) while destroying any chance of reconciliation with Austria, thereby ruining the unity of Hapsburg diplomacy. Austria could never be trusted by France from the point when she broke her treaty, whereas Spain at least publicly behaved more honourably.

Spain did benefit indirectly from England/France/Austria being at war because she could use the time to build up the economy of her colonies and gain a dominant trading position in every trade area.  This financial advantage was put to good use by building up grain reserves to help support Hapsburg armies and avoid famines, then as soon as peace was agreed, Spain attempted to bribe the then player of England with the offer of a marriage and funds for rebuilding - a deliberate attempt to break the alliance between England and France, and thereby win some diplomatic advantage for Spain which Austria had lost.  Under a different player this may well have worked, but it backfired out of a sense of loyalty and game continuity that the player respected.  It does seem to be a standard Spanish tactic now to lavish loans or gifts on incoming players to gain or retain allies.

During the years which followed, England managed to hold off invasions from UDP, HWIC, Spain and Austria, and when the Hapsburgs intervened in this conflict they were soundly beaten.  The Austrian army was destroyed at Hastings, Spain withdrew, and UDP was obliged to disband her huge mercenary army (which the Hapsburgs were relying upon to join any future coalition against France), while England kicked the rebels out of Scotland and gained several Dutch colonies.  There is no alternative verdict on this conflict other than it was a defeat for the Hapsburgs.

The current war between England and HWIC is really part of this decade long attempt by this Spanish-backed faction to undermine King James.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
2) Victory in the WSS which never was when his second son was crowned in Madrid sent the Holy Roman Emperor rocketing to the top of the honour table, but gained Vienna not a single extra inch of land or head of population.  Which some players would no doubt view as a bit of a failure if you measure the success of your position in material terms like gaining control of the Duchy of Milan, Naples, Flanders etc.  Rather than in terms of honour or dynastic/political advantage.

In both G9 and G10 you have a sort of Habsburg government in Madrid but Austria has taken Milan and other lands from Spain leading to shall we say a degree of "bad feeling" and badly damaged the family alliance compared to G7.  While a lot is down to having a Habsburg Government in Spain and the only two players of Austria wanting to play in a dynastic manner I do not think Austria + Milan - Spanish hostility over "stolen duchy" is actually in a  better position than Josef of Austria in G7 less direct control of Milan - but crowned in Emperor in Frankfurt of a Empire which includes Milan, Savoy and Flanders.  While his younger brother spent a fortune on rebuilding his shattered (by the French) army and glad handing (Spain views it as hospitality others might say bribes) to turn the Imperial Election from a Election into crowning by universal acclimation.

For the Holy Roman Emperor to find his honour collapsed from the top of the table to the point where Austria was facing a Hungarian rebellion, gives you an idea of just how badly Austria messed up.  Breaking treaties does tend to hit honour, and even capturing towns does not always offset the loss; it may be that in the 2nd war Austria just assumed that France would struggle again, but this time under unlimited orders and a new player who knew how to fight, France inflicted defeat after defeat upon Austria.  Would things have been different if Spain had continued to fight?  Possibly, but I doubt even a rapid march from a Spanish relief force could have saved the Austrian army in France.  The Hapsburgs clearly failed to achieve their objectives while pushing England and France even closer together.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
b) Spain has not really used the HWIC/Portobello position for anything.  Apart from gaining some shipwright missions and some ship designs (which they also provided too France and no doubt several other powers) I would say that the two players of this minor position have "used" Spain rather than the other way round.  Counting as a native company with 3% tax rate and posts which have included Postmaster General (until the Post Office went bust) and Spanish Viceroy of Africa with a budget from Madrid is not a bad deal for some bespoke English designs like East India-men etc.

If anyone wants to become the third Martel they probably need to enjoy a minor position in deep, deep hot water.  Currently the whole board of Directors is facing treason charges in England for backing the wrong side.  England and France have both declared war on the HWIC (but not Spain) though that seems more like a attempt to attack all Spanish shipping while not triggering Spanish mutual defence treaties.  You may also require six months to find a new home as Spain caves in too pressure from the Pope (at least they are not caving in too pressure from England for your head) and you can not even use you own company name in the UDP because a Dutch company already owns it.

Its tough being a CEO !!  

My opinion on what Spain has done with HWIC etc is well known and needs no repetition.  If Spain is as 'hands off' as Stuart claims, then (as has been pointed out in game newspapers and letters) why does he not just hand over Martel to face justice?  It is rather unfathomable that a minor character who was not originally associated with Spain in Jan-1700, is now the cause of many problems for Spain.  If someone is brave enough to join as Martel (or one of his associates), who as Stuart rightly says are wanted on more charges than I can be bothered to list, hot water doesn't even begin to describe the situation.  Martel No.2 did try to reach an accommodation with me in his own inimitable style, hoping that as a new player I would forget past crimes, but this backfired on him.  While I would not wish to discourage anyone from joining the game, Martel's only future is to be tried, convicted and executed, his assets/companies dissolved as an example to others, so as a character it would probably not be one with a long term future.  I am sure there are plenty of other pirate positions available in the game which a new player can build up if he so chooses, without inheriting all of Martel's problems.

December 1715 newspaper has arrived earlier than expected, so for the benefit of non-players, here are the highlights from the viewpoint of England:

1. No Russian shipping losses have been reported.  Other figures are split across 3 reports and appear to show 16 English, 24 Spanish, 1 Prussian.  I have not counted the 10 Spanish/HWIC pirate Xebecs sunk in Ceuta.  It would therefore appear that Spain is this month's winner of the Tsar's Our Ships Sank trophy.  

The higher than usual number of English ships lost is no reflection on the Royal Navy because it had been previously announced that English ships would be temporarily recalled; this of course was not reciprocated by Spain who sent a patrol of 10Frg from Cadiz and attacked an English Escort Frigate which appears to have escaped.  Just proves you can't trust the Spanish.  The location of these losses will be of interest given the stated positions of the participants.  Spain had made great theatre of promising the Pope that she had withdrawn her ships, but apparently this does not apply in the South Atlantic nor the Far East.  Since neither of these territories is within the 'war zone', having little or no HWIC shipping, Spain has even less excuse.  England has in public statements sought to limit her actions to those zones which are known to have a HWIC presence.  The Baltic and Far East were specifically excluded for this reason, yet the vast majority of English shipping losses over the last few months were from the Far East.  My conclusion is that Spain has not respected the geographical limits of the war.  Russia Dept East does seem to have understood this and it is appreciated that she is concerned that a single English merchant went missing (read the previous newspapers and you'll see this was not an isolated incident).  This month, of course, 9 English ships were reported missing from the Java Sea.  It is of course possible that HWIC has created a new faction and that is up to their old tricks, but King James will evaluate options once the required intelligence arrives.  A later Russian statement is also relevant for it confirms that HWIC has been banned from the Baltic; if, as Prince Golitsyn implies later, those same conditions apply in the Far East then it would appear that Russian ships will be hunting Spanish cruisers in the Baltic and Far East from next month.

2. The activity against the HWIC/pirates in Ceuta made more progress, although not exactly as envisaged.  Admiral Torrington decided he would sink the pirate Xebecs rather than mess around capturing them, so he did, taking only minor damage from the FC on the city walls.  The newspaper revealed that the Xebecs were holding 15 English ship masters as hostages on board the Xebecs.  This proves they were pirates because genuine Spanish ships would not have resorted to such tactics.

On Land Lord Peterborough explained to the Moroccan emissary why they were there and even invited him to observe events, but instead he scurried off back from where he came.  This left Lord Peterborough free to bombard the walls of the town, using the superior height from the citadel to smash the FC to bits.  Keen to get on with it, he sent forward a regiment of 3rd Foot with ladders.  The pirate defenders (who are impersonating the Gerona Fusiliers) tried to shoot back, but failed to hit anything.  Meanwhile 3rd Foot decided they should return fire and dropped the ladders to shoot.  I can only assume there was a breakdown in communication or the officer was knocked on the head by a ladder, for the infantry withdrew without their ladders.  The pirate defenders were more adept at smashing up the ladders and then went back into the town to be shelled some more by Peterborough's artillery.  

The big question now is whether after such a lamentable performance Spain is still prepared to claim that the Gerona Fusiliers are Spanish regulars rather than Martel's Muppets.  Spanish troops have proved that they are highly disciplined, equipped with superior weaponry and kit, and commanded by one of the best wargamers (Stuart) in the game; I can't remember a time when they were defeated in combat by English forces (except when as part of a force under 3rd party command).  It is inconceivable that with this reputation their only success so far has been in smashing up ladders.  Every time they have tried to do something vaguely military they have messed it up.  

3. At the annual carol service in St.Paul's Cathedral, London, the Dean gave a powerful sermon on the subject of goats.  This led to a lively debate afterwards, including some speculation if 1716 would see the Goat War.

4. UDP has agreed to supply Russia with dredgers.

5. King Louis has been doing charitable things, but will that extend to a certain Roger Martel who has apparently appeared in Marseilles.  Jacobite Naval Intelligence is not quite sure what to make of this development, but is currently working on the assumption that Martel has employed a double and is seeking to trick France into arresting him so that he can spin some false story.

6. King Frederick of Prussia continues to demonstrate that he knows how to treat noble ladies better than Emperor Joseph.

7. The Kalmar Union may not be quite so united as King Charles thinks with some murmuring reported about recent attempts to make new treaties.  I have lost track somewhat of what is going on here.  Is Sweden now to be referred to as the Kalmar Union so is King Charles King of the Kalmar Union or King in the Kalmar Union, or not a King, but an Emperor?  Perhaps if this was clarified over the next few turns it would improve things?

8. The Imperial Diet in Regensburg has passed a motion with the proviso that it is "not binding on member states, but an indication of intent with a recommendation to implement."   I am not entirely sure what any of this actually achieves other than for various delegates to have a reason to accept Spanish bribes to vote in the way Spain wishes. An attempt by Spanish representatives to claim the title of Duke of Flanders failed, the extant title being Count of Flanders.

9. In Vienna the campaign to free the 2 Countesses swung into action with a rather aggressive Austrian lawyer, Adolf von Ziege, launching actions in the courts.  An associate clerk busied himself writing letters to Austrian newspapers to highlight the plight of these ladies.  The Austrian law court then made a series of rather bizarre decisions.  It released Lady Dorothy (who can paint) on parole, although retained her sketches, but it refused to release Lady Jane (who cannot paint).  Since they were together the whole time, it is hard to see how they can be treated differently.  The Russian ambassador has tried to comfort the Earl of Kent and offered hospitality to Lady Dorothy (and quite possibly protection against more of Ignaz' unwelcomed attentions).  It is, of course, not within the spirit of the forum for me to suggest what the next move is, but watch this space ...

10. The King of Poland wants to levy taxes on the cossacks, but the legality of such a move has been questioned.

11. The Tsar remains upset with Poland and has issued various statements concerning their approach to the HWIC conflict. This is welcome, although Russia is not finding it quite so easy to reconcile conflicting Orthodox Patriarchs.

12. Spain has repeated her statement from last month including the claim that Spain has "honoured the Pope's wishes" - clearly not given the attacks on English shipping by Spain this month.

13. In Rome ambassador Drummond has pointed out the contradictions of the Spanish stance, namely that since Spain accepts the profits from HWIC's activities, she must also accept the liabilities arising.  The Papacy has denied the Spanish claim that she owns part of the Portobello Company.

14. The new governor of the Western Colonies of Russia (Russia Department West?) has been named as Abraham Petrovic Gannibal, and has made a good start by serving French wine to his guests rather than cheap Spanish plonk.  He expressed an opinion on the dangers of African waters which seem to be broadly correct if the report of French corvettes chasing Spanish slavers in the Ethiopian Sea are anything to go by.

15. A man called Billy Baker was given a swimming lesson by a group of Russian merchant sailors in Kingston.  This attempt to pressgang Russians failed, but the more interesting question is who is behind such an action?  This is the 5th appearance by characters of unknown origin trying to do sneaky things in English territory.  Clearly someone is determined to act covertly against England and cause trouble.  

Overall, largely a holding turn as is usual when it is the income round.  Plenty of interesting possibilities for the next turn seem to be opening up.

Ref a Spanish (Hapsburg) view of how G7 has played out for the Hapsburgs:-

1) Spanish Hapsburg position started in 1700 with a slowly dieing King, Europe dominated by a "over mighty" Louis XIV generally scareing the ***** out of everyone by holding huge military displays being nice to a player character James II in exile. While the Spanish Royal Council was split down the middle between Bourbon and Hapsburg factions. I was the Hapsburg faction but if I had just been playing Spain rather than a particular faction the Lilly Banner would now be flying over Madrid in G7! Starting Navy was ok but Army was in a dire state for the amount of territory.

2) Fortunately, the old Spanish allies from the League of Augsburg - Austria, England and UDP all indicated that they were willing to back the succession of Charles von Hapsburg and rather than making lots of demands actually lavished gifts like drill bored canon and Dutch fire drill missions on Spain which impressed the Bourbon faction and gave the Habsburg faction some cards to play when dealing with both the Bourbon faction in Spain and the Government of France. The starting allies pretty much signed everything which Spain put in front of them without looking for any changes, which is either proof of Spanish diplomatic skills or fact they they were so scared of Louis XIV than they would sign anything if it kept Spain out of the Bourbon camp.

Would point out that no one got really stitched up apart from promise to help Spain not being 100% recipical. Spain even took culculated risk of giving everyone free trade with the Spanish Empire. Partly on basis that if French were going to bombard my ports I wanted lots of English, Dutch and other third parties hit as well. But oddly the only players who seemed to want to talk about trade were the Persians, Chinese and the English HWIC faction or became a real in game friend of Spain. Partly because their own Government seemed to change every few months and offered zero support to their keen but rather micro-managed style of trade.

3) With outside backing secured and other faction in Spain now also interested in a peacefull settlement. Though we both thought the then Government of Portugal was asking for a good kicking with its offers to allow invaders of Iberia access via its Ports and alliance (same offer made to both sides!). Spain then settled down to tough job of giving Louis XIV the bad news that his grandson was not going to be King of Spain. Was planning on playing hard ball for as long as possible over outstanding dowry, colonial disputes and eventually give up the whole of Flanders to avoid an invasion.

- In the event Louis settled for less than Spain expected. Partly because the French player was not really that interested in fighting a dynastic war in the mountains of Spain or Flanders mud. The other reason was that my then Louis XIV had steam coming out of his ears over the English, non arrival of dredgers and the expensive collapse of French canals.

- Having solved the WWS problem, the Spanish Bourbon player dropped out and "Royal Hapsburg" Spain set about trying to plough up as much of America as possible and corner the world markets in Sugar, Tobacco, Coffee etc while breeding a new Royal Family.

4) Spains happiness was slightly dimmed when France taking advantage of treaties with Spain and Austria declared war on England over missing dredgers and Dutch did nothing even though the Treaty of Ghent ment the French could not invade the UDP by land. It dimmed even more when English who seemed really keen on war with France proved to be really badly prepared. The 17,500 dead mentioned in other thread was not due to a bad harvest but was due to French troops landing and living off the land while English massed in London and stayed their. Finally it really dimmed badly when the Emperor Leopold said he had decided to sacrifice his honour and break a treaty with France in order to save England and the balance of power in Europe.

With head of Hapsburg family about to disgrace himself Madrid promised to join his war but only when the time limit on non aggression clause included in the treaty of Ghent expired. Madrid rather expected that the Emperor would wait for Spain, but no he went ahead and joined the war anyway. A call which may have helped England but sunk Austrian honour for a decade.

5) Hapsburgs seem to like peace more than war since even with 100,000 French troops in British Isles and French resources 1700-1705 overwelmingly devoted to its Navy and colonies. The Emperor's originally successful attack eventually got stuck even after Spain and the Dutch followed their Austrian ally into war with France. Then the sodding English sold us all down the river without notice, restored James II and made a seperate peace with France without any notice to its allies at all Which resulted in a Jacobite lite position in London (all Protestants like Churchill and Godophin but with newly turned coats), a Jacobite Court in exile plus two other English factions lead by HWIC and Blackbeards Pemberton Company/Sons of Liberty in virtual revolt or at least very confused.

6) In Europe the Emperor main Army trapped Louis XIV and a very large French Army inside a town where it could not get its cavalry out of the gates but then in turn got trapped in its own siege lines by the Army of the Nord which moved south from covering the Flander/UDP frontier. As situation was dire for both sides the small but perfectly formed Spanish Army of Flanders (3rd Army) moved out of its fortress belt and headed south calling on the Dutch to follow. In action which means Spain can never abandon Flanders the Knights of the Golden Fleece charged hell for leather (Determination A charge at the Gallop) in effort to at least weaken the French before Dutch Army arrived and the Emperor men died of starvation etc.

- Too great shock of all concerned the French Army of the Nord and its Cavalry in particular was smashed flat, the Austrian Army saved (this time at least.....in next war they were not so lucky) and the war won esp when the fresh Dutch Army joined the Austrian ring holding Louis captive. Pity that as pointless military victors go this may be right up the top - a war to save a English Government from its own stupid mistakes, won after said English Government betrayed King William (exiled too Scotland were he remained King), betrayed its allies and restored James II who most of them had betrayed in 1688.

7) For the Hapsburgs the Jacobites in G7 have always been a problem. As fellow Catholics with backing of Papacy we are generally in favour, certainly when compared to shifty characters like Godolphin and Churchill. Problem was for most of early game were did the Jacobites start and the French secret service end?! Things got even more confused when the Churchill (player who abandoned Hapsburg alliance and restored Jacobite James II) then proceeded to murder James II !! Resulting in absolute horror and English honour dropping to such a degree that player faked own characters death in a daul and then dropped out of game to be replaced by one sort term Jacobite Government and one very long terms Government (The current one who's invasion of Scotland and murder of King William and the Austrian Envoy to Scotland re-started the fighting).

During short period between the two French players in G7 and the Jacobite player between the Churchill/Norfolk Government and current player. Spain with very solid support from the HWIC tried to arrange a marriage between the new monarch James III and the Queen of Spain sister. Which would have made England neatral on the Hapsburg-Bourbon rivalry. However, our offer was turned down in a very insulting manner which annoyed the HWIC no end and pushed them into doing deals with the Dutch concerning possible restoration of King William and knocked the Jacobites right of any Hapsburg Christmas card lists.

9) HWIC was for first half of the game only English faction which seemed a) Sane and b) able to pick up a pen and exchange letters with Madrid. Since they have become NPC they are basically a liability as witnessed by the expensive failure of the Spanish Post Office and the Royal Bank of Africa. But Spain is blowed if its handing over old friends to the same "Jacobite Justice" as was offered King William, Prince Eugine of Savoy and Lord George Murray. To keep Pope happy and avoid war in Europe, Spain was willing to ask him to leave and find new place of exile if French and his nutty nephew stopped attacking Spanish shipping.

- Did not expect him to sail off too France if it is actually Roger Martel. Rome, UDP, Persia, even Russia but France? I know Mertel had close relations with the French Government at one stage and the HWIC still has ship building missions in this country but still ?????? How the hell did Agema decide that pick a country out of a hat?

It is a good story, and broadly in line with my own appreciation.  However ...

Stuart Bailey wrote:
1. Spanish Hapsburg position started in 1700 with a slowly dieing King,  Europe dominated by a "over mighty" Louis XIV generally scareing the ***** out of everyone by holding huge military displays being nice to a player character James II in exile.  While the Spanish Royal Council was split down the middle between Bourbon and Hapsburg factions.  I was the Hapsburg faction but if I had just been playing Spain rather than a particular faction the Lilly Banner would now be flying over Madrid in G7!  Starting Navy was OK but Army was in a dire state for the amount of territory.

2. Fortunately, the old Spanish allies from the League of Augsburg - Austria, England and UDP all indicated that they were willing to back the succession of Charles von Hapsburg and rather than making lots of demands actually lavished gifts like drill bored canon and Dutch fire drill missions on Spain which impressed the Bourbon faction and gave the Habsburg faction some cards to play when dealing with both the Bourbon faction in Spain and the Government of France.  The starting allies pretty much signed everything which Spain put in front of them without looking for any changes, which is either proof of Spanish diplomatic skills or fact they they were so scared of Louis XIV than they would sign anything if it kept Spain out of the Bourbon camp.

Would point out that no one got really stitched up apart from promise to help Spain not being 100% reciprocal.  Spain even took calculated risk of giving everyone free trade with the Spanish Empire.  Partly on basis that if French were going to bombard my ports I wanted lots of English, Dutch and other third parties hit as well.  But oddly the only players who seemed to want to talk about trade were the Persians, Chinese and the  English HWIC faction or became a real in game friend of Spain.  Partly because their own Government seemed to change every few months and offered zero support to their keen but rather micro-managed style of trade.

3. With outside backing secured and other faction in Spain now also interested in a peaceful settlement.  Though we both thought the then Government of Portugal was asking for a good kicking with its offers to allow invaders of Iberia access via its Ports and alliance (same offer made to both sides!).  Spain then settled down to tough job of giving Louis XIV the bad news that his grandson was not going to be King of Spain.  Was planning on playing hard ball for as long as possible over outstanding dowry, colonial disputes and eventually give up the whole of Flanders to avoid an invasion.

- In the event Louis settled for less than Spain expected.  Partly because the French player was not really that interested in fighting a dynastic war in the mountains of Spain or Flanders mud.  The other reason was that my then Louis XIV had steam coming out of his ears over the English, non arrival of dredgers and the expensive collapse of French canals.

- Having solved the WWS problem, the Spanish Bourbon player dropped out and "Royal Hapsburg" Spain set about trying to plough up as much of America as possible and corner the world markets in Sugar, Tobacco, Coffee etc while breeding a new Royal Family.

All this paranoia about France scaring other players into joining a Hapsburg coalition is a useful propaganda line, and historically may well have been accurate.  However, G7 France was far more bothered with internal matters, its navy and colonies to be getting ready to invade Flanders or parts of the HRE.  Just as Spain was split with various inherent weaknesses, France in this particular game was also not in a position where she could just declare war in 1700 against whoever she liked.  France did have on paper great military strength, but needed significant economic development to pay for them to be made active; they also needed re-equipping (mainly matchlock muskets), no artillery.  So the 'fear of France' that Stuart claims was the motivation behind alliances was not really a practical factor.  If Louis really had that power ready to hit Flanders, then he would surely not have settled for so little just to avoid an early war.  It was a good piece of Spanish diplomacy, but ultimately caused difficulties since France was not wanting to fight.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
4. Spain's happiness was slightly dimmed when France taking advantage of treaties with Spain and Austria declared war on England over missing dredgers and Dutch did nothing even though the Treaty of Ghent meant the French could not invade the UDP by land.  It dimmed even more when English who seemed really keen on war with France proved to be really badly prepared.  The 17,500 dead mentioned in other thread was not due to a bad harvest but was due to French troops landing and living off the land while English massed in London and stayed there.  Finally it really dimmed badly when the Emperor Leopold said he had decided to sacrifice his honour and break a treaty with France in order to save England and the balance of power in Europe.

With head of Hapsburg family about to disgrace himself Madrid promised to join his war but only when the time limit on non aggression clause included in the treaty of Ghent expired.  Madrid rather expected that the Emperor would wait for Spain, but no he went ahead and joined the war anyway.  A call which may have helped England but sunk Austrian honour for a decade.

The big misrepresentation in this section concerns the reason why Austria broke her treaty with France.  Stuart implies that Austria was unaware that France was about to declare war against England, but in fact France had already informed Austria that the situation was deteriorating and likely to lead to war.  I can't remember whether Spain was also informed, but she was certainly aware that France was losing patience with England.

There is no doubt that Austria messed up by breaking her treaty - if she had waited a year then perhaps this would have been more understandable, but to break it 3 months after signing it suggested that she was deliberately misleading France in signing it in the first place.  To break the engagement as well was a double blow to French diplomacy, since it took a lot to convince French nobles to accept a Hapsburg marriage.

Up to that point both Spanish and French diplomacy had succeeded in averting a war and there was a high degree of trust between the players.  There had already been a few changes of player for England by this stage which contributed to the unpredictability.  The Austrian marriage would have really secured peace in Europe until at least 1706 giving all positions the chance to develop economically, so for Austria to trash all this, side with a new English player (who she was not bound by treaty to support since at the time new players were not obliged to stick to treaties signed by their predecessors), and break the treaty with France (which she was bound to keep) undermined all Spain's efforts.  If Austria had decided to remain neutral then that would have been bad enough, but for her to launch an attack against France was as overt an act of betrayal that it was possible to do.  And for what?  An English player who a few turns later dropped.  If you are going to destroy your own diplomatic credibility then it helps if you have solid allies who will stick by you.  Credit to Stuart (Spain) for understanding that common sense aspect, and not joining Austria immediately.  It is hard to believe that Austria did not discuss what she was doing with Spain before she did it, but if she did then it must have been outside the game since game time alone would not have allowed for an exchange of letters.  So the most charitable interpretation would be that Austria just sought to sabotage the Treaty of Ghent by 'forcing' Spain to break it, risking the Hapsburg succession that Treaty permitted.  Spain refused to throw away her gains, so Austria proceeded alone.  Miscalculation or falling out, I imagine the fury on both sides.  But what Austria cannot claim is that she was acting in defence of her English 'ally'.  My view is that Austria just wanted a war she had prepared for and was playing France false all along; the proposed marriage was later discovered as a ruse during which time Austria had been bribing French courtiers.  Either Austria just assumed (wrongly) that Spain would follow her lead once she declared war or there was a colossal breakdown in communication which was not appreciated by the players.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
5. Hapsburgs seem to like peace more than war since even with 100,000 French troops in British Isles and French resources 1700-1705 overwhelmingly devoted to its Navy and colonies.  The Emperor's originally successful attack eventually got stuck even after Spain and the Dutch followed their Austrian ally into war with France.  Then the sodding English sold us all down the river without notice, restored James II and made a separate peace with France without any notice to its allies at all   Which resulted in a Jacobite lite position in London (all Protestants like Churchill and Godophin but with newly turned coats), a Jacobite Court in exile plus two other English factions lead by HWIC and Blackbeard's Pemberton Company/Sons of Liberty in virtual revolt or at least very confused.

France had largely won its war against England, occupying much of the south and Midlands, encircling London, defeated an attempted breakout by English forces at Staines, while having defeated the Royal Navy in several engagements and forcing England's main fleets back to port where they were blockaded.  Louis had reasoned early on that he had enough troops but was a bit weak with ships, so instead of creating more infantry, he expanded his navy.  Since England didn't have that player stability she didn't maintain her starting advantage in numbers of ships by building more.  So by the time of the war the French navy was slightly superior to the English navy.  So far as I am aware G7 France launched the only successful invasion of England in any game of LGDR, with a well thought out and superbly executed assault, establishing bridgeheads and then following that through with armies constantly moving forward to secure additional objectives.  After this the English navy was on the defensive, which meant that all France had to achieve was a draw at sea to neutralise the threat of a counter-attack.  It then became a relatively simple task to bottle up the English fleet in port while it was repairing.  In strategic terms England really had very little choice other than to accept Louis' terms.

By this time the purpose of the war was no longer just about dredgers, but about regime change - a more permanent solution which at least would secure the kind of advantage that justified the expense of the war.  As a twist which fooled everyone, the King James who was restored turned out to be KJ2 who had not died in 1701 as he did historically, but was still very much alive.  This should in theory have made it easier for English ministers to accept him, but as Stuart points out in reality the position splintered.  This may have partly been France's fault since the objective was not for France to rule England, but for it to remain a separate player position under whoever decided to take it on.  France ignored the possibility that the Hapsburgs and their allies were throwing a lot of money in to bribe units and stir up rebellion, so it was relatively easy for them to capitalise on the confusion.  It is probable that the military objective was to keep French troops in England longer than Louis wanted to allow Austria a free hand for longer in France.  In that sense their strategy worked.  Whoever tried to take on England at this stage faced a monumental challenge which was probably the toughest any new player could face.  It was probably harder than I took on a few years later.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
6. In Europe the Emperor main Army trapped Louis XIV and a very large French Army inside a town where it could not get its cavalry out of the gates but then in turn got trapped in its own siege lines by the Army of the Nord which moved south from covering the Flander/UDP frontier.  As situation was dire for both sides the small but perfectly formed Spanish Army of Flanders (3rd Army) moved out of its fortress belt and headed south calling on the Dutch to follow.  In action which means Spain can never abandon Flanders the Knights of the Golden Fleece charged hell for leather (Determination A charge at the Gallop) in effort to at least weaken the French before Dutch Army arrived and the Emperor men died of starvation etc.  

- Too great shock of all concerned the French Army of the Nord and its Cavalry in particular was smashed flat, the Austrian Army saved (this time at least.....in next war they were not so lucky) and the war won esp when the fresh Dutch Army joined the Austrian ring holding Louis captive.  Pity that as pointless military victors go this may be right up the top - a war to save a English Government from its own stupid mistakes, won after said English Government betrayed King William (exiled too Scotland were he remained King), betrayed its allies and restored James II who most of them had betrayed in 1688.

The military defeat of France was not quite as overwhelming as described here.  France had 4 armies which consolidated around the river network to the east of Paris, in a small town.  There was also a considerable reserve in Paris which had not been deployed.  At the time French armies were not very well balanced with the artillery/engineers and a few infantry in one formation, most of the cavalry in another, and infantry/scouts in a 3rd; the 4th army was a bit more 'normal' since it had been engaged in a siege; so it was necessary for France to consolidate and reorganise its forces before it was possible to fight the more balanced Spanish/UDP armies.  France intended to move against 1 of the enemy armies, smash it away, and then bring all forces back to Paris where they could recover SL more quickly.  But the arrival of multiple armies and the beginning of siege operations made this more difficult so although France had superior numbers, she couldn't deploy them.  Breakouts failed and ultimately French forces did manage to escape, but with heavy losses.  Those losses would have been replaced in Paris, so in my opinion France could have fought on and pushed back Spain/Austria/UDP.  It would have taken a lot of time and been tricky, needing a better commander than I am, but France still had considerable resources.  The incoming player, however, decided he would try to settle things diplomatically.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
7. For the Hapsburgs the Jacobites in G7 have always been a problem.  As fellow Catholics with backing of Papacy we are generally in favour, certainly when compared to shifty characters like Godolphin and Churchill.  Problem was for most of early game were did the Jacobites start and the French secret service end?!  Things got even more confused when the Churchill (player who abandoned Hapsburg alliance and restored Jacobite James II) then proceeded to murder James II !!  Resulting in absolute horror and English honour dropping to such a degree that player faked own characters death in a daul and then dropped out of game to be replaced by one sort term Jacobite Government and one very long terms Government (The current one who's invasion of Scotland and murder of King William and the Austrian Envoy to Scotland re-started the fighting).

8. During short period between the two French players in G7 and the Jacobite player between the Churchill/Norfolk Government and current player.  Spain with very solid support from the HWIC tried to arrange a marriage between the new monarch James III and the Queen of Spain sister.  Which would have made England neutral on the Hapsburg-Bourbon rivalry.  However, our offer was turned down in a very insulting manner which annoyed the HWIC no end and pushed them into doing deals with the Dutch concerning possible restoration of King William and knocked the Jacobites right of any Hapsburg Christmas card lists.

The chaos as England disintegrated was confusing for everyone.  The player seemed to adopt the same kind of craziness that we saw with G10 Spain, chopping and changing ideas every turn.  To openly murder KJ2 was nuts - he must just have assumed that KJ2 was the problem when the real problem was the anti-English alliance bribing units and trying to destroy the position.  KJ2 was little more than a figurehead - he didn't have time to do anything which could have upset anyone in England.  Then having realised that his actions totally undermined his own ability to rule, the player (Churchill), tried to reverse policies previously agreed, abandoning France and siding with the Hapsburgs, only the next turn to abolish taxes (all of them) which rendered it impossible for him to pay for his army (encouraged desertions) or actually do anything longer term to turn the position around.  He then seemed to realise that there were still rather a lot of French troops in England who outnumbered English troops, so turning on France while your country is under French occupation wasn't going to work either.  Such that logic can be used to penetrate such a farce, the player clearly didn't appreciate that if having a King supported by Catholic France was a problem for the English, it was even more of a problem to have a King supported by Catholic Spain and married to a Hapsburg!  At least France promised independence for England and was happy for a hands-off alliance.

William was sent into exile, but he agreed to go back to UDP, ending any claim on the English (and Scottish) crown.  Instead he ended up in Scotland where supported by Hapsburg-sponsored factions, Scotland effectively became independent.  The number of factions either trying to gain part of England or Ireland or its colonies at this point is to numerous to mention.  At one point HWIC came very close to taking over the American colonies completely, the Jesuits to taking over Ireland, and around half of England's army had hopped across the Channel to UDP to find William who of course wasn't there.  What nobody had realised during this time was that France had a new player (the current one) who had been quietly rebuilding, training his army, sorting out the wreckage of the last war and laying the foundations for the next war.

To complete the story of England, Churchill was replaced by a pro-Jacobite administration led by the Catholic Duke of Norfolk who crowned KJ3 (the current character).  That KJ3 existed made Churchill's murder of KJ2 even more nonsensical - replacing one elderly Jacobite who could have died at any time of natural causes with a young one whose purpose inevitably was then fixed on avenging those who had killed his father!  The factions were still up to their usual tricks when I took over (as KJ3) and beat back invasions (including one from UDP, who had never officially made peace with England).  Scotland was deemed to be in rebel hands, but according to my asset list was part of my lands, so I sent an army to sort the rebels out only to find that William was there.  The Hapsburgs intervened through various factions and directly by sending Prince Eugene as 'ambassador' to what they considered to be an independent Scotland.  This was almost certainly another Austrian blunder - when you have a legendary commander it helps it you give him an army to command!  A joint Spanish-Austrian army did invade England (although much of the intended army was forced to turn back by the Royal Navy), and was defeated at Hastings by Marines.  More Spanish-UDP armies landed in Scotland while English forces were strengthened with French and Russians.  The fighting went on for a few years, during which England captured William, Eugene and other Scottish rebels.  Since William had broken parole, his fate was sealed; Eugene and the others were executed for slightly different reasons.  Eventually UDP and the factions were pushed out of Scotland.  French forces defeated the Austrian army in France, and the Jacobite victory was complete.  HWIC and other factions continued to be backed by the Hapsburgs, but in the short term KJ had enough to do recovering from over a decade of war.  It was only when the HWIC-backed Desmarets fraud against France reminded us that they were still a threat that we had not finished the job.   Jacobite Naval Intelligence managed to track them down to Tobago which was taken; French intelligence uncovered a cell operating in Genoa and cleared them out of there; but still Desmarets has escaped justice and HWIC is attacking English shipping.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
9. HWIC was for first half of the game only English faction which seemed a) Sane and b) able to pick up a pen and exchange letters with Madrid.  Since they have become NPC they are basically a liability as witnessed by the expensive failure of the Spanish Post Office and the Royal Bank of Africa.  But Spain is blowed if its handing over old friends to the same "Jacobite Justice" as was offered King William, Prince Eugine of Savoy and Lord George Murray.  To keep Pope happy and avoid war in Europe, Spain was willing to ask him to leave and find new place of exile if French and his nutty nephew stopped attacking Spanish shipping.

- Did not expect him to sail off too France if it is actually Roger Martel.  Rome, UDP, Persia, even Russia but France?  I know Mertel had close relations with the French Government at one stage and the HWIC still has ship building missions in this country but still ??????  How the hell did Agema decide that pick a country out of a hat?  

I can certainly agree that the original HWIC player was very able and did a much better job that I could in turning a small position into one of the key positions of the game; excellent diplomacy, a robust spy network, an ability to take over parts of positions, embezzle funds, bribe units, etc, he possessed a sneaky imagination and a talent for getting away with things that even now we can only marvel at. I'm a fairly inventive player at times, but I could not have come up with half of the things he did.  Compared to other English players he was indeed more consistent and able.  However, that doesn't make him indispensable.  He had deceived and backstabbed his way through so many players and upset so many countries that he was really forced to stay in hiding in Spain.

What happens to Martel now?  Who knows, although I can agree with Stuart that his appearance at Marseilles (if it really is him) is puzzling.  Has he simply given himself up, or does he think he will get softer treatment if he hands himself over to France?  Or is the Desmarets spy network still active in France and he expects to be protected by them?  I can't answer any of these questions, but perhaps we will get some clarification over the next few turns.

Ref the Dec 1715 Glori du Roi and Papa Clement comments can I just say:

1) Spain promised the Pope to end action against English merchant shipping (In case they were linked with Blackbeard/Pemberton company) if the French and English shopped attacking all Spanish merchant shipping (In case they had any links with the HWIC). The Pope was however warned that it may take some time for orders for get too distant stations and that not all losses to French and English shipping caused by Spain.

As expected some English losses happened a long way from European waters. Its not easy to catch up with a Convoy in middle of South Atlantic and change its orders! But Spanish shipping still being attacked by the French in Levant and African waters a lot closer to home than say the Java sea. So if anyone ignores Popal wishes its Louis XIV a man who allows the English to claim that the HWIC stole his money. But who is still a shareholder in the HWIC proper, keeps HWIC shipyard missions and uses same stolen money (if it was stolen by 400 invisible carts? and was not just a admin error as believed by everyone who is not Jacobite) as reason to annex Genoa.

Would also say that English continued attack on Ceuta is against the wishes of the Holy Father. However its well know that the English do not care what Rome thinks and going against Papal wishes not to waste Catholic lives is good for King James honour score. So they do not count.....what we are concerned with here is opinion of Spanish and French troops and tax payers!

2) Ref the siege of Ceuta, firstly it should be noted that this a rather isolated and 2nd rate fortress held by the equal of a standard line regiment, some standard fortress guns and some light naval units of the Spanish Customs service plus some support. Effectively its an outwork for Gibraltar/Cadiz aiming to deny any attackers an easy anchorage on other sides of straits. Its probably of some importance to local trade of Morocco but it was of so little interest to the Viceroy of Spanish Africa (Martel) based in Oran that he did not bother to garrison it at all and some troops got sent over from the Spanish mainland.

After three months some of the best commanders England has left leading some of its best troops and ships have launched six attacks and still not got close to making a breach in the main defences. Was a bit surprised that English Navy smashed up Xebecs hideing in a fortified port with direct fire and even more surprised with write up of artillery daul since its well known that cannon on hill fort being hit from below are at a major disadvantage (easier to dismount them than with hit from above) but I guess that just the luck of the dice and many crews had gone on shore with close range fire power.

Not sure about English losses too late but their commanders seem to have caused a major diplomatic incident with the Sultan of Morocco after marching across his lands. With the number of Shia missionaries in Africa these days preaching about the living Madhi and the mighty Ghazi from Persia who protects true believers from the mighty French. The last thing any Sunni ruler can afford is to look weak!

However, what I would say is that if you attack across open ground using ladders against a major fortress this would normally hurt a lot. Also even if Ceuta taken next month the relatively junior Spanish Commanders would seem to have kept the English Navy at sea for at least five months in bad conditions and the English Army tied up for at least four which is by historic standards a first rate preformance worth at least a Knighthood perhaps more if they can make it five or six months! Pity Cauta so isolated and Spain trying really hard to prove to Pope that its whiter than white and not trying to start war with France. Otherwise Peterborough would be buried in Spanish relief forces after about four months unless he has a really good Army of Obervation covering his rear.

3) If anyone has any clue's why Roger Martel Spain Viceroy of Africa has left the invaded Vicroyship and has reportedly sailed to France (which has has declared war on him personally) can they please send them on the back of a post card to - Charles Von Hapsburg (Madrid).

Really liked first Martel, 2nd version (Deacon?) seemed to be rather too keen on getting back in Jacobite good books and happy to sale Spain down river. Agema run Martel starting to be a bit of a pain (alas my Post Office). Still baffled that if the Anglo-French really believed he had even the smallest involvement in missing French gold why they did not go direct to Oran. Quick enough to smash Genoa and its Doge flat on vague belief that a Bank in Genoa may have been involved.

They can hardly say can not attack Oran because its Spanish territory then attack Cauta.

PS Ref Papa Clement other comments about French military threat in early 1700's G7 being overstated and Hapsburg Propaganda. That was not the opinion of Madrid or the reported (to me) opinions of Austria, England and the UDP players. Belief that France had a hit list and was set on regime change may have been wrong but the belief itself was not propaganda and it had a real influence in game.

As for French threat being over stated try saying that to the English players who were hit by French invasion in around 1702/1703 ish?

Emperor wrote to Spain to inform Madrid that he was so worried about events in England that he was going to null and void treaty the same month as he did it!! And Spain believes it was a sudden last minute decision as prior to that he had been talking to Madrid about possible Eastern campaign now affairs in west settled. Think screams from Madrid about dangers of breaking a treaty like this must have arrived in Vienna about same time as Austrian troops crossed into Franche Comte.

Prior to that Austria and Spain had considered danger of Hapsburg treaty with France allowing the French a free shot at England and Jacobite restoration. Not an easy call as English governments kept altering and none of them really made much sence. Madrid however believed that if the French were going to invade anyone better England than Spain or Flanders. Spain also believed that England with Dutch backing should be able to withstand France for three years so signed the Treaty of Ghent which it honoured to the letter. Austria also signed a treaty with France at roughly same time.

Think I was right to believe better England than Spain or Flanders. Where Spain was wrong was over Dutch springing to defence of their shared ruler and in belief that since the English had gone out of their way to annoy France they must be prepared and know how to manage a campaign in Glori.

As for the Treaty which ended the war in France. Having achieved objective of Jacobite restoration in England, new French player could have brought the 100,00 troops back from British Isles and continued war to clear Hapsburgs and Dutch out of France. However, with Jacobites restored by the English Government and Hapsburg's/Dutch/HWIC more upset with perfidious Albion than they were with France or new French player it made sence to make peace even at cost of Franche-Comte and Hispaniola to Hapsburgs.

A major French Army had been destroyed, while another including the King was bottled up and suffering monthly loss from disease and the like. Meanwhile down south the Spanish Army was on a roll taking one important fortress after another. Not saying the French would not have been able to break Louis XIV out and then clear the invaders esp as Austrian honour was going down every month from its former No 1 by miles position. But it would have been too close to call with Spanish getting really comfortable in south.

Other than military the main reason for new player to make peace was economic as the collapse of French canals due to lack of dredgers had started the war. The war had then been fought for years on French sil and the French merchant fleet and trade had been under sustained attack by English, Dutch, Spanish, HWIC privateers and even the off Austrian row boat in Adriatic. Combine this with Spain trying to work along the Med coast and take all the ports and block the Royal Cannel and the Straits of Gib to French shipping.

France was not in real economic trouble but with large positions like France which mostly rely on tax income. You really do not want years of EH 3/4 as it takes so long to recover. Plus fair to say anything could happen with British even risk of them going to war against France again.

In event French gave Dutch (plus their HWIC allies) a three year window of opportunity to try and remove Jacobites and the Dutch blew it!

Being Catholic and loyal to Pope Spain could have nothing to do with this and only acted to help Scotland years later. But Dutch failure to restore William of Orange prior to arrival of current James III player was on a par with English military so say commanded by John Churchill Duke of Marlborough and about as painfull to watch. Think French thought that Dutch action would wreck England so badly after French invasion it would not be a threat to France again even under William. The survival of a Jacobite regime was a pure bonus from point of view of Paris.

Though I still think England would have done better in financial terms etc with a really nice girl from Milan (sister of Spanish Queen) her dowry would have saved at least one famine.