G7....War declared

by Papa Clement Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:10 pm

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Post n°276

Re: G7....War declared

by Papa Clement Sat Jul 01, 2023 4:10 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Papa Clement wrote:If Spain had really wanted to save Savoy then I'm sure she could - either by marching men from Naples or Milan, or even over the Pyrenees, to arrive in time to force the French to reconsider and save the capital of Savoy. Instead they seem to have concentrated on mainly reconnaissance raids, targeting merchant caravans and infrastructure, in preparation for the next campaigning season. I'm not criticising Stuart's choices - he's a better general than I'll ever be, and nobody understands logistics in this game better than he does. Yet it remains a fact that France has consolidated her position and by annexing both Savoy and Genoa, has cut off Milan. I don't know where other French armies are, but perhaps we will find them over the next few turns.

I think you over estimate the power of the Spanish Army in Italy and underestimate the cunning and deadly nature of the French player.

Yes if Spain had stripped every garrison in Milan, Naples and Sicily it could have mustered and sent a relief force which especially if the forces of Savoy had not blown themselves up and conducted the type of defence expected. Might (stress the word Might) have been able to defeat the reported Strength of the French invaders and relieve the siege of Turin in the spring of 1717.

Same can be said about Imperial/Austrian forces but I would ask you to consider that a relief force without artillery is doomed to fail against the French so its maximum land speed is around 80 miles a month, minus any delays caused by Venetian and Papal customs demanding too know if you have paid import duty of all of those horses and wagons etc. Likewise any relief force which engaged with high sickness levels was doomed to fail and if anyone can explain how you can march over the Alps or the length of Italy without picking up sickness levels and a need to spend months resting please share!!!

Having fought against a single Spanish army I know that Stuart can use even part of his Spanish forces effectively. He has, by his own admission, some of the best cavalry, especially light cavalry, in the game, and specialist units like Miquelets. All he had to do was delay or frustrate the French siege effort until the weather turned, not necessarily defeat the French army in a pitched battle. So to do that he just needed a presence to buy Spain time to bring up more troops, including artillery. Would any French general have dared to continue with a siege if he saw a force of Spanish cavalry appearing? Probably not - he would have suspended the siege, assuming that what he was seeing was just a scouting formation and a larger Spanish army was behind it. More importantly than that, it would have given the forces of Savoy a huge morale boost and the Duke may well not have surrendered.

Stuart Bailey wrote:The other problem is that to raise an effective relief force would have resulted in the defences of Naples, perhaps even Milan being reduced to dangerously low levels and a need to reinforce them from Spain. In this context ask yourself why the French have basically massed transports and troops in Southern French ports and nearly every major war ship somewhere between Spain and Naples? Could the French mount a seaborne invasion of Naples (or Spain) before relief force from Naples gets half way through the Papal States = YES! Could the French Navy through everything and the kitchen sink any Spanish troop convoy either trying to reinforce Italy from Spain or shortcut the move up Italy by quicker sea movement = YES!

After the attack on Ceuta, the main Spanish fleet was bottled up in Gibraltar, but I think it must have moved from there to Cadiz by now. It certainly had the opportunity. It would be somewhat unlikely if Spain did not keep a few SoL and cruisers back in Naples, so if you had an army in Naples (which I would have expected you to have), then you could have moved it from Naples to Venice or since you have almost certainly developed Milan's canals, up the River Po to Piacenza by sea within a month before France would have been able to do anything. That would leave about 150 miles to go on foot. Depending on the navigation further up the river, you could have moved some artillery and supplies by barge the month after, linked up with troops from Milan and moved forward towards Savoy. Alternatively the troops from Milan could have made a dash for Alessandria (could not have been more than a month's march from Milan) and denied this town to the French. That would then have been your marshaling point and a place of retreat for Savoy's forces and the Duke, which you could deny to France. Within 3 months you would have a large force capable of challenging France. 3rd alternative would just have been to send some cavalry from Milan forward to check the French, again denying them total victory this year so that they would then have had to have postponed the siege of Savoy (the city) until 1717, by which time you would have brought other units up.

I understand the point about the defences of Naples and Milan being "reduced to dangerously low levels", but that would only be temporary - from January you could raise new units in those towns so that any French spy would have reported a strong garrison by March which would be the earliest time France could have thought about attacking either. Milan is arguably safer than Naples, granted, since it would take longer to get to Milan overland. Presumably both towns have really solid defences with plenty of FC, so are not going to fall as soon as a French army appeared? It would take months for them to be in serious danger of falling, by which time France would have shown her hand and you would therefore have had time to send more reinforcements from Spain. Yes, you would have needed to take on the French fleet if it was still there, but if that's what you had to do to save Naples/Milan then you would do it.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Would point out that prior to the French invasion of Savoy Marshall Tesse and a very, very large French Army moved towards the Spanish frontier probably to try and fix Spanish attention on the North (that worked). Then he moved east to join up with yet more French reinforcements and be very close to his shipping at Marseilles.

From his mid point location Marshall Tesse could:
a) Invade Spain or Naples/Sicily by Sea
b) March back west to cover the Spanish frontier
c) March north to cover the Rhine frontier or invade the west bank to recover Franche Comte or
d) Move into Italy to massively reinforce the French first wave in Italy and smash any relief force.

Spanish high command decided that option b) was the least potentially harmfull and invaded France late in the season. Something which had the bonus of showing the Imperial Princes including the Duke of Savoy that Spain was serious in honouring its mutual defence treaties. With Tesse pinned down in the west that would give Imperial forces with some support from Spanish Italian forces the best chance to save Savoy if the defenders could only hang on through the winter.

Historically the defence of Turin by the forces of Savoy against the French was one of the longest sieges in history and one of the great defences. I am pretty sure it was not only me but the French high command which expected a repeat. Especially due to the timing of their campaign so late in the season combined with fact that their first move was to move against Savoy's main port to provide a logistics and naval hub on other side of Alps as well as stopping reinforcement of Savoy by sea. Combined with attempts to take various other towns rather than march directly to Turin.

My reading is that French expected to take Nice after a longer siege and cut off Turin this campaign season. Then move onto Turin in 1717 with a huge covering force on both land and sea ready to smash the expected relief.

I'm not trying to take away from the French player his achievement - he clearly outwitted you. But ...

option (a) was somewhat unlikely without the French navy protecting any armada. It is more likely the kind of option which would appeal to me than him. Only if the French navy had moved away from Gibraltar was this really possible, and at that point the Spanish navy should have been sent after it. You have larger ships and only needed to draw in any engagement to frustrate his plans.

option (b) by your own admission was the weakest move (for France), so again unlikely when there are better moves available.

option (c) would have probably been my choice, especially given the cowardly Austrian army was hundreds of miles away hiding from the French in Poland.

option (d) I agree would also have been a good move, but it would really have committed France to then attacking Milan in 1717 and then you would have been able to reinforce it.

Now, of course, he has his logistics and naval hub which will make it very difficult to take back either Genoa or Savoy, and he has multiple choices where to go next.

Stuart Bailey wrote:The unexpectedly rapid defeat of Savoy and the capture of its Duke etc following so soon after another blatant French aggression - the French. Means that Agema has given players too options:- a) Admit they are scared of the French player and his Army and try and hide out of the way while he picks off Imperial states and NPC positions etc one at a time or b) Accept that Agema will not fight their battles for them and draw the sword to defend the Empire, Princely rights etc, etc.

Perhaps I am expecting too much of Spain. It should really be down to Austria to defend her Empire, but she is distracted (along with Prussia) with the invasion of Poland, which has to go down as one of the really great blunders in the game. Austria sacrificed Savoy and has now made it much more difficult for Spain to respond to France. Not only that, but Prussia (who is probably the strongest active HRE position after Austria) has also ended up in Poland. As is Sweden. It cannot be coincidence that France waited until Austria gave her the opportunity and then invaded. But what an opportunity ... while in the 1680s France waited for Austria to be distracted by the Ottomans, in G7 in 1716, Austria just walked away from her responsibilities instead, taking the bulk of the military might of the HRE with her. At least the Prussians know why they are there and are making some kind of fight of it, but the Austrians are just sat around where they hope the French can't hit them. 1717 will be very interesting, especially if Spain starts to buckle simply because she can't do everything and can't be everywhere. Perhaps 1717 or 1718 will see the demise of the HRE, possibly the first time it has happened in any game of LGDR? And all because a few nations wanted to gobble up bits of Poland.

by Stuart Bailey Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:26 pm

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Post n°277

Re: G7....War declared

by Stuart Bailey Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:26 pm

Ref Papa comments and the possible relief of Savoy. Yes the Po River is open and has been used in the past to send troops to the Duchy of Milan from Spain but its aways taken around four months to sail from Spain across the Med, up the Adriatic, up River Po and then get off Transports and march to Milan. Even without being attacked by the French Navy or storms at sea troops and Cavalry in particular then need a couple of months rest to get over sea sickness before being fit to march into Savoy and try and break any sieges. An attempt for which the French would do doubt be fully aware off and prepared for.

Also should be pointed out that past reinforcements of Milan has been with fairly small forces for which transports and escorts were too hand and did not need to be gathered from various location.

In contrast the French invaded Savoy with x2 main armies one of which under D'Alegre was 40F 86H and 40 field Art plus a siege trayne. The other under had 50F 53H and 25 Art as well as various other mostly flying columns of Dragoons for scouting and raiding etc. While behind this in reserve waiting to respond was the Comte de Tesse with 88 F 236 H and 63 Art.

In order to ship a force of roughly the same strength would need 227 Transports (less in using some specialist horse transports) or repeated trips through dangerous waters. While I am sure Trieste and the upper Adriatic is very nice not convinced I want the Spanish Navy to spend the war bottled up their. Plus troops and Escorts to be in the same place as the transports.

This might have been possible if say France and Savoy had spent the six months prior to the invasion throwing insults and charges against each other but in the event the French attack was without any warning and I defy any player not privy to the French Government to say that when they read that France had invaded Savoy this was not a bit of a surprize to them?

Yes it was clear that France was going to attack someone. But why not Persia who he has been at war with for seemingly ever, or more likely a Hapsburg territory like Milan (from Genoa), Flanders, Frenche Comte and the West Bank of the Rhine or even Spain itself?

Yes looking at a map the take over of Savoy to link up France and its ealier conquest of Genoa in order to prepare for a drive into Milan and the soft under belly of Austria perhaps in combination with attacks in the Rhineland and Flanders while holding the Spanish frontier makes a lot of sence from a military map point of view (very 1790's). But attacking your own neice and a NPC Catholic part of the Holy Roman Empire so soon after the butchery of Genoa how many players who care about their honour score and the political results of their actions would have done this?

So yes Spain did have attack on Savoy down as a possible but I thought other options were more likely.

Current situation is that Spain is taking the Comte de Tesse with 88 F 236 H and 63 Art away from the Rhine and Italy plus other smaller French Army is pinned down on the western end of Spanish frontier with Villiars and his very powerfull Armee of the Nord faces Flanders. Spain is also fighting the French at sea and in the colonies which engages yet more French command and control. So all in all and especially if you include the financial support provided think Charles von Hapsburg has proved his loyalty to the Emperor (his brother) and his fellow Princes of the Holy Roman Empire.

Question is can the Emperor and the Princes of the Holy Roman Empire now take on a lot less than half of French forces in Italy and on the Rhine and thow the invaders out of the Holy Roman Empire?

Passing the vote to actually do something and a recovery of Strassboug and main Rhine crossing from French control is a slow but good start. Just hope that not too much Imperial attention is not taken up by events in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Or should that now be the Polish Commonwealth as the Lithuanian and Courland bits of the Commonwealth are forced to join the Czar of all the Russ and Courlanders join their fellow Protestants in the Kalmar Union in a rather more polite and very much less bloody way.

by Papa Clement Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:36 pm

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Post n°278

Re: G7....War declared

by Papa Clement Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:36 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:Ref Papa comments and the possible relief of Savoy. Yes the Po River is open and has been used in the past to send troops to the Duchy of Milan from Spain but its always taken around four months to sail from Spain across the Med, up the Adriatic, up River Po and then get off Transports and march to Milan. Even without being attacked by the French Navy or storms at sea troops and Cavalry in particular then need a couple of months rest to get over sea sickness before being fit to march into Savoy and try and break any sieges. An attempt for which the French would do doubt be fully aware off and prepared for.

Also should be pointed out that past reinforcements of Milan has been with fairly small forces for which transports and escorts were too hand and did not need to be gathered from various location.

In contrast the French invaded Savoy with x2 main armies one of which under D'Alegre was 40F 86H and 40 field Art plus a siege trayne. The other under had 50F 53H and 25 Art as well as various other mostly flying columns of Dragoons for scouting and raiding etc. While behind this in reserve waiting to respond was the Comte de Tesse with 88 F 236 H and 63 Art.

In order to ship a force of roughly the same strength would need 227 Transports (less in using some specialist horse transports) or repeated trips through dangerous waters. While I am sure Trieste and the upper Adriatic is very nice not convinced I want the Spanish Navy to spend the war bottled up their. Plus troops and Escorts to be in the same place as the transports.

This might have been possible if say France and Savoy had spent the six months prior to the invasion throwing insults and charges against each other but in the event the French attack was without any warning and I defy any player not privy to the French Government to say that when they read that France had invaded Savoy this was not a bit of a surprize to them?

I am surprised it takes 4 months to sail from Spain to Milan when it only takes 3 months to sail from England to America. It should certainly not take 4 months to sail from Naples up the River Po, which was my original suggestion. Also Spanish trade in the region is many times larger than any other nation so I am sure your merchant marine could have helped. After all they don't have the Royal Navy to be afraid of now? I had not envisaged a huge force of 227L, but smaller contingents which would also have reduced the risk.

England faced a similar situation to relieve Danzig ... the need to get troops quickly to the area. I was able to send one fleet of transports, unprotected, which was a risk, but made it before the blockade went up; then this month the main force, heavily protected, had to run past both the Swedish and the Russian fleets, and do whatever it took to get through. It was not ideal, but given the lack of landing sites I did what I had to do, and now nobody is in any doubt that England means business in Poland!

Of course I don't know the precise disposition of Spanish garrisons and strength of forces in Italy which could respond to the French threat, but after Genoa it would have made sense to significantly strengthen the garrison in Milan.

The point about Spanish ships being trapped in the Adriatic is fair, but unless you were going to send your whole fleet, would France have been willing to commit a third of her total to enforce a blockade which would also impact her ability to protect her own forces if she was going to hit Naples? I don't think so. Doing so would have risked the Spanish navy hitting the French navy hard and knocking it out for a few months which would then have handed Spain a few free moves to send troops across the region.

French forces may be sizeable on paper, but how many of the reported F are engineers or siege specialists? How many of the H are D? How many of the FA are SA or mortars, etc? Also to garrison 4 towns without FC would require quite large French garrisons, so the effective strength of the French army is much reduced.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Yes it was clear that France was going to attack someone. But why not Persia who he has been at war with for seemingly ever, or more likely a Hapsburg territory like Milan (from Genoa), Flanders, Frenche Comte and the West Bank of the Rhine or even Spain itself?

Yes looking at a map the take over of Savoy to link up France and its earlier conquest of Genoa in order to prepare for a drive into Milan and the soft under belly of Austria perhaps in combination with attacks in the Rhineland and Flanders while holding the Spanish frontier makes a lot of sense from a military map point of view (very 1790's). But attacking your own niece and a NPC Catholic part of the Holy Roman Empire so soon after the butchery of Genoa how many players who care about their honour score and the political results of their actions would have done this?

So yes Spain did have attack on Savoy down as a possible but I thought other options were more likely.

Or Spain thought that having done a deal with Savoy to turn her pro-Hapsburg, that square on the map was 'safe'? I know we have discussed this in game letters, so you know my view: France attacking Genoa was a surprise, but not France attacking Savoy.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Current situation is that Spain is taking the Comte de Tesse with 88 F 236 H and 63 Art away from the Rhine and Italy plus other smaller French Army is pinned down on the western end of Spanish frontier with Villiars and his very powerful Armee of the Nord faces Flanders. Spain is also fighting the French at sea and in the colonies which engages yet more French command and control. So all in all and especially if you include the financial support provided think Charles von Hapsburg has proved his loyalty to the Emperor (his brother) and his fellow Princes of the Holy Roman Empire.

Question is can the Emperor and the Princes of the Holy Roman Empire now take on a lot less than half of French forces in Italy and on the Rhine and throw the invaders out of the Holy Roman Empire?

Passing the vote to actually do something and a recovery of Strassboug and main Rhine crossing from French control is a slow but good start. Just hope that not too much Imperial attention is not taken up by events in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Or should that now be the Polish Commonwealth as the Lithuanian and Courland bits of the Commonwealth are forced to join the Czar of all the Russ and Courlanders join their fellow Protestants in the Kalmar Union in a rather more polite and very much less bloody way.

One day perhaps Spain will realise that trying to buy inactive nations through huge subsidies may keep your honour score high, but when you expect to receive something concrete for your efforts, they don't tend to provide very much. In most cases you do tend to get more of a return from helping active players (Russia's help to Sweden has at least gained her an army in Courland), but unfortunately for all the tens of millions that you've given to Austria, all Emperor Joseph has done is march his army hundreds of miles away from the battlefield to hide in Poland.

The vote to raise the Reichsarmy was largely a Spanish-sponsored effort and from newspaper reports is costing Spain a lot of money. I still have my doubts whether it can be legally used against France in Savoy given Savoy is now part of France, or whether it will actually be used to do anything other than act as a reserve in case France marches into central Europe.

I do sympathize - dealing with inactive rulers (like the King of Poland) is very frustrating (not just my experience, but also Russia's - I do believe the Tsar when he writes that the inability to get letters answered or any positive response to diplomacy was the major cause of the war. However, so far nothing has been achieved in either Courland or the rest of Poland in terms of parts being annexed by those attacking Poland. Sweden has simply made an arrangement with Courland which has to be confirmed by the King of Poland at later peace talks, and has given guarantees that if the King vetos it then she will withdraw. The cost, so far, is substantial losses to a large field army from disease, which if the army is moved into Mittau (to stop it freezing to death) may well spread disease into the town, possibly killing King Charles himself which would cause a bit of a problem of succession within the Kalmar Union. I think Sweden has probably done the best she could in the circumstances, but the cost in terms of manpower has been high. Russia doesn't seem to have done much better herself except uniting the Ukranian cossacks against her and sending wave after wave of men to brawl in Minsk. Meanwhile Polish nobles who might possibly have been convinced to come over to Russia have now rallied strongly behind King Stanislaw whose army has inflicted a significant defeat on the Prussians outside Warsaw. I don't think any of these actions has encouraged the Poles to become more responsive in diplomacy, rather a rejuvinated national pride has simply generated more insults in the newspaper. It will be very interesting to see whether the quadruple alliance against Poland are really prepared to repeat this pattern for several game years, the Poles still not talking, the war spreading and the position of various parties getting weaker. Do the players commit more men and resources, including higher game turn fees, to continue what they have framed as a religious war, simply because they've started and they are determined to finish, or cut their losses and try to find a face-saving peace which may well give them most of what they want.

And if they do, are they prepared to let Spain take the strain to save the Holy Roman Empire, if that is now possible, which personally I doubt.

by Stuart Bailey Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:27 pm

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Post n°279

Re: G7....War declared

by Stuart Bailey Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:27 pm

Catch the correct winds and current and Spanish fleets often get across the Atlantic in a couple of months. Fast Squadrons have even made it in a month but trip to Milan via the Po from Spain is just messy. First you have to sail across western med, then up the Adriatic which is generally lacking in wind. Then up the Po against the flow of water, then you have to unload and march too Milan even if you have use of barges to move the heavy stuff.

Its a pain and why I would much sooner use the Ports of Nice or Genoa. Historically and in game the Duchy of Milan was Savoy and Genoa economic hinterland and merchants from Genoa and Savoy made a lot of money providing Shipping for Milanese silks and other products. With their Governments lowing the transit rate on Milanese silk etc to 5% to help this trade.

Now following the French invasion having to pay 10% to Venice !! The ladies and gentlemen of Spain in the America's etc are having to pay a whole 5% more for their Milanese silks due to French actions. Its an outrage and clearly grounds for war along with the frogs attacking the Holy Roman Empire, trampling on Spanish mutual defence treaties and trying to wreck Hapsburg wedding plans!

Spain has hundreds of thousands of men and a very full war chest ditto the Holy Roman Empire who say that Savoy is not part of France, it is a Imperial Duchy currently under French occupation with its Duke and his sons the eldest of whom is engaged to the heiress of Austria (my characters neice) held captive by the dastardly Frog! If France wins its war and forces the Emperor and the Empire to cede Savoy then it legally becomes part of France but not before. Hell my character is get to accept that Artois and various other lands stolen by Louis XIV are part of France and Louis the land pirate has occupied them for 30+ years.

Following votes in the Reichstag the Princes of the Holy Roman Empire (like my character) clearly agree that Savoy is an occupied part of the Empire and we all need to rally round the Emperor to help save our brother prince and his people from French aggression. After all we are all gentlemen of honour and breeding (and who is next?). Fact that Flanders and Milan is are not sending troops directly to the Reicharmee is due to fact that they are in front line against further French aggression. But have sent a lot of cash to hire replacements and have also spent more to help fund forces of other Princes. Its only silver, while the honour of the House of Hapsburg is priceless.

Actually one reason attack on Savoy was a shock was that Louis XIV was attacking a Prince of the Holy Roman Empire, a fellow Catholic married to his own neice and for why? Because said Princes heir was engaged too the heiress of Austria and he has signed treaties of great benefit to his Ducal House and people. Talk about giving up the moral high ground and showing the world well the HRE, Italy and Spain that you are a cad, a bounder and a flipping pycho bandit !! Spanish department of Propaganda currently has its feet up saying "our work is done". Probably the only thing France can do now to make things any worse is march on Naples sacking Rome and taking the Pope captive and hanging the Vicar-General of the Jesuits as a Spanish agent on route.

I very much doubt if James III of England would have made a move like the invasion of Savoy which while a French military triumph is a bit of a diplomatic disaster. Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh on the French player since we all play in our own way and its more fun for everyone if some players do something "outragous" which gives other players something to roll play round.

In this respect invasion of Savoy is a A1 balls of steel move with the French player basically taking his white leather glove (with built in neckle dusters) slapping it across the faces of the House of Hapsburg and the other Princes of the HRE before throwing it at their feet with the words "pick it up if you think you are hard enough".

Spain and the Emperor at the very least are dabbing away the blood from their lip and picking up the glove. Are we hard enough to take on the French War Machine of the G7 Louis XIV...... who knows ?!

by Papa Clement Tue Jul 04, 2023 7:00 pm

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Post n°280

Re: G7....War declared

by Papa Clement Tue Jul 04, 2023 7:00 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:Catch the correct winds and current and Spanish fleets often get across the Atlantic in a couple of months. Fast Squadrons have even made it in a month but trip to Milan via the Po from Spain is just messy. First you have to sail across western med, then up the Adriatic which is generally lacking in wind. Then up the Po against the flow of water, then you have to unload and march too Milan even if you have use of barges to move the heavy stuff.

Its a pain and why I would much sooner use the Ports of Nice or Genoa. Historically and in game the Duchy of Milan was Savoy and Genoa economic hinterland and merchants from Genoa and Savoy made a lot of money providing Shipping for Milanese silks and other products. With their Governments lowing the transit rate on Milanese silk etc to 5% to help this trade.

Now following the French invasion having to pay 10% to Venice !! The ladies and gentlemen of Spain in the America's etc are having to pay a whole 5% more for their Milanese silks due to French actions. Its an outrage and clearly grounds for war along with the frogs attacking the Holy Roman Empire, trampling on Spanish mutual defense treaties and trying to wreck Hapsburg wedding plans!

Sounds like it is simply the number of steps in the process then, combined with delays at the docks. Perhaps I will ask the Royal Navy to design a kind of container barge to float huge numbers of barges tied together across calm waters, that way when they reach the river system they can just sail out one by one. Buoyancy should be OK, but might have some design challenge with the steering/sailing. Probably very useful in the Med if English trade with Milan ever starts again.

There could have been another option ... instead of landing in Genoa, land in Tuscany and move overland from there?

Stuart Bailey wrote:Spain has hundreds of thousands of men and a very full war chest ditto the Holy Roman Empire who say that Savoy is not part of France, it is a Imperial Duchy currently under French occupation with its Duke and his sons the eldest of whom is engaged to the heiress of Austria (my characters niece) held captive by the dastardly Frog! If France wins its war and forces the Emperor and the Empire to cede Savoy then it legally becomes part of France but not before. Hell my character is get to accept that Artois and various other lands stolen by Louis XIV are part of France and Louis the land pirate has occupied them for 30+ years.

Following votes in the Reichstag the Princes of the Holy Roman Empire (like my character) clearly agree that Savoy is an occupied part of the Empire and we all need to rally round the Emperor to help save our brother prince and his people from French aggression. After all we are all gentlemen of honour and breeding (and who is next?). Fact that Flanders and Milan is are not sending troops directly to the Reicharmee is due to fact that they are in front line against further French aggression. But have sent a lot of cash to hire replacements and have also spent more to help fund forces of other Princes. Its only silver, while the honour of the House of Hapsburg is priceless.

Actually one reason attack on Savoy was a shock was that Louis XIV was attacking a Prince of the Holy Roman Empire, a fellow Catholic married to his own niece and for why? Because said Princes heir was engaged too the heiress of Austria and he has signed treaties of great benefit to his Ducal House and people. Talk about giving up the moral high ground and showing the world well the HRE, Italy and Spain that you are a cad, a bounder and a flipping pycho bandit !! Spanish department of Propaganda currently has its feet up saying "our work is done".

The Hapsburgs have far too many nieces, and I'm sure you have better things to do than spending your time and money pleasing every single one of them.

One of the great things about the game is that if you wish to hold an unpopular or unrealistic position on something, you are free to do so. The challenge is making it a reality. I have not received a game letter from France in a while, so have no special 'inside' knowledge of his plans or thoughts, but from the newspapers and his actions, it does seem that France thinks the whole Genoa and Savoy situation is resolved in his favour and the onus is now on the Hapsburgs and their allies to reverse what has happened.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
Probably the only thing France can do now to make things any worse is march on Naples sacking Rome and taking the Pope captive and hanging the Vicar-General of the Jesuits as a Spanish agent on route.

Hanging the Vicar-General of the Jesuits would be a very popular move in some countries. Sacking Rome and taking the Pope captive would be a bit much, though ... just in case France is reading this.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
I very much doubt if James III of England would have made a move like the invasion of Savoy which while a French military triumph is a bit of a diplomatic disaster. Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh on the French player since we all play in our own way and its more fun for everyone if some players do something "outrageous" which gives other players something to roll play round.

In this respect invasion of Savoy is a A1 balls of steel move with the French player basically taking his white leather glove (with built in knuckle dusters) slapping it across the faces of the House of Hapsburg and the other Princes of the HRE before throwing it at their feet with the words "pick it up if you think you are hard enough".

Spain and the Emperor at the very least are dabbing away the blood from their lip and picking up the glove. Are we hard enough to take on the French War Machine of the G7 Louis XIV...... who knows ?!

I can confirm that England would not have invaded Savoy, but that is mainly because the Duchess is a Stuart. Perhaps I should qualify that ... England would not have invaded Savoy unless the Duchess asked us to. It was, at one point, actively considered, but rejected after consultation. The problem is not the Duchess but the Duke. In real history they hated each other, so it is not surprising they were at odds over Prince Victor's marriage to a Hapsburg.

I don't think it is a question of being 'hard' enough to take on France - Spain certainly has the ability and will (Austria is certainly acting as though she has neither). It is more a case of potentially having to fight in so many different geographical areas whereas France can remain fairly consolidated. If Austria and Prussia were not messing around in Poland with a religious war nobody really wants, and could concentrate their forces against France then perhaps I would think it would be harder for France. But so far by taking Savoy she has removed the weakest link (Genoa) and is now much stronger. She could, as you have pointed out, hit Milan or Naples, or Flanders, or push into central Germany, or Spain itself, or even Spanish colonies. Individually these areas are possible to take within a single campaigning season if you have the kind of forces France has, but by the time Spain has moved troops to defend them, the campaigning season is almost over, and France gets to turn another area on the map 'blue'. As a strategy it is very hard to respond to. It does depend on France's longer term objectives which nobody knows.

by Stuart Bailey Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:40 am

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Post n°281

Re: G7....War declared

by Stuart Bailey Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:40 am

Could try to land in Tuscany as its closer to the area of action, but the fact that its basically next door to around 150 French Line ships and 70 odd frigates is a bit of a disadvantage.

Not even sure the Duke of Tuscany would agree since according to the Agema guides Tuscany is part of the HRE (sort off). But the Duke seems to take a very detached attitude in 1700 out of fear of upsetting the French. Doubt if this has changed much! Interestingly the same guide said that not all of Tuscany is an Imperial fief and Siena is a Spanish fief. Think the Tribute for Siena must go in the same honesty box as Spanish customs revenue!

My character only has 2 neices he is actively concerned about, the daughters of the Emperor Josef. Not sure how many daughters the Queen of Spain sisters have and do Bavarian step neices count? Of greater concern is the 3 daughters and a 1 son who Spanish Hapsburg diplomats will also have to find suitable marriages for in a while.

This makes every Catholic Prince of roughly the right age like the sons of the Duke of Savoy very precious to the House of Hapsburg. When trying to conduct historic Hapsburg wedding diplomacy its very annoying when the French wreck plans for a really nice wedding with red wine fountains etc, etc by attacking and throwing the intended bridegroom in some stinking goal where he will probably now catch small-pox or something! If Louis XIV had counter bid with a French Princess to try and spoil Hapsburg plans - fair enough. But to send Army of Invasion to down right unsporting and not cricket (Is the French player Australian by any chance?). The words "This means war" springs to mind.

Odd that Papa thinks Spain will start to buckle under the pressure of a multi-front war rather than France when France is actually having to deal with a lot more foes and areas of opperation than Spain. Actually something which will help both sides here is that both sides have spent years getting ready. You will note that in the Franco-Spanish frontier zone the Spanish military has spent a lot of its time just trying to un-do French prepartions. So frontier lines have been over-run, boarder patrols wiped out and logistics like grain stores and barge patrols sent up in flames.

The Duchess of Savoy is not really a Stuart. Ok her mother is a Stuart and she is somewhere in the English succession, but her father was the Duke of Orleans (Louis XIV younger brother......which puts her somewhere in the line of succession to the French throne as well if not for Salic Law) so she was born into House of Orleans and married into the House of Savoy. But if the Duchess of Savoy is a Stuart, Louis XIV is a Hapsburg! Due to his mother and 1st wife and mother of his heir being Hapsburgs. Clearly the black sheep and disgrace of the family !!

by Papa Clement Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:58 am

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Post n°282

Re: G7....War declared

by Papa Clement Wed Jul 05, 2023 10:58 am

Stuart Bailey wrote:Could try to land in Tuscany as its closer to the area of action, but the fact that its basically next door to around 150 French Line ships and 70 odd frigates is a bit of a disadvantage.

Not even sure the Duke of Tuscany would agree since according to the Agema guides Tuscany is part of the HRE (sort off). But the Duke seems to take a very detached attitude in 1700 out of fear of upsetting the French. Doubt if this has changed much! Interestingly the same guide said that not all of Tuscany is an Imperial fief and Siena is a Spanish fief. Think the Tribute for Siena must go in the same honesty box as Spanish customs revenue!

I thought from the game rules that Tuscany was an Austrian fief and part of the HRE, but I may be wrong. I would find it very strange if Tuscany had suddenly become pro-French after France has swallowed up Genoa and Savoy. Tuscany to Genoa would be a relatively quick march and you surely can't be telling me that it would take 4 months to move from Spain to Tuscany! Yes, a few French ships may be slightly inconvenient, but there are always ways to get round a naval blockade (not that I will give you any hints on here!)

Stuart Bailey wrote:My character only has 2 nieces he is actively concerned about, the daughters of the Emperor Josef. Not sure how many daughters the Queen of Spain sisters have and do Bavarian step nieces count? Of greater concern is the 3 daughters and a 1 son who Spanish Hapsburg diplomats will also have to find suitable marriages for in a while.

This makes every Catholic Prince of roughly the right age like the sons of the Duke of Savoy very precious to the House of Hapsburg. When trying to conduct historic Hapsburg wedding diplomacy its very annoying when the French wreck plans for a really nice wedding with red wine fountains etc, etc by attacking and throwing the intended bridegroom in some stinking goal where he will probably now catch small-pox or something! If Louis XIV had counter bid with a French Princess to try and spoil Hapsburg plans - fair enough. But to send Army of Invasion to down right unsporting and not cricket (Is the French player Australian by any chance?). The words "This means war" springs to mind.

It should really be down to Austria to find marriage partners for his children. Unfortunately he does seem to be struggling. I felt quite sorry for poor Prince Victor - he was considered rather useless when he was examined, so was forced to spent time at 2 Austrian academies simply to be deemed 'acceptable' by Emperor Joseph. Then, of course, after the way Austria mistreated the 2 English countesses (who were not spies), it was quite natural for Prince Victor to realise he had a narrow escape and fled back to Savoy. Of course before this Spain has been very successful in finding marriage partners for other Hapsburgs, but that was before you had to deal with Austria. If Prince Victor does die in gaol from some disease (or boredom), at least he has been spared life as a doormat, crushed under the weight of Hapsburg ambition.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Odd that Papa thinks Spain will start to buckle under the pressure of a multi-front war rather than France when France is actually having to deal with a lot more foes and areas of operation than Spain. Actually something which will help both sides here is that both sides have spent years getting ready. You will note that in the Franco-Spanish frontier zone the Spanish military has spent a lot of its time just trying to undo French preparations. So frontier lines have been over-run, boarder patrols wiped out and logistics like grain stores and barge patrols sent up in flames.

France can fight on multiple fronts because she has solid lines of internal communication and supply - she is moving from the centre of a circle to the outside. Spain is having to find vulnerable points from the outside of a circle and try to move inside. Thus in the early stages of a war, France will be able to reinforce quicker than Spain. The danger for France is that she moves too quickly and over-extends. The danger for Spain is that she fails to find a way to break into the circle and hold while she brings up more men to break deeper into France. For both sides time would appear to be important. If Spain cannot break through and just ends up in stalemate along various fronts, then it is hard to see France giving back any of her gains. Whereas it is much easier for France to pick off isolated Spanish/HRE targets, incorporate them into France and then look to move further.

Stuart Bailey wrote:The Duchess of Savoy is not really a Stuart. Ok her mother is a Stuart and she is somewhere in the English succession, but her father was the Duke of Orleans (Louis XIV younger brother......which puts her somewhere in the line of succession to the French throne as well if not for Salic Law) so she was born into House of Orleans and married into the House of Savoy. But if the Duchess of Savoy is a Stuart, Louis XIV is a Hapsburg! Due to his mother and 1st wife and mother of his heir being Hapsburgs. Clearly the black sheep and disgrace of the family !!

In real history the current Stuart claimant to the English crown is descended from the Duchess of Savoy. Besides, as Head of Clan Stuart, if I write her (and her children?) clearly into the English succession, then she's in. She would have a more distant claim than my own children, but given there are far fewer legitimate Stuarts around than Hapsburgs, succession planning is a natural concern for my character.

by Stuart Bailey Thu Jul 06, 2023 5:54 pm

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Post n°283

Re: G7....War declared

by Stuart Bailey Thu Jul 06, 2023 5:54 pm

A few French ships !? Since when has somewhere between 200 and 300 Warships of Frigate size and above been a few? And that is not counting all of the cutters and really small stuff.

Fairly sure I could get round or through a French blockade of Italy. Its the getting back which worries Spanish Admirals who traditionally (in G7) like to fight with tugs standing by and in sight of their repair yards, hospitals, magazines and serious coastal defences just to be on the safe side.

Vienna is not that bad. With its cafes, culture, music etc think poor Prince Victor of Savoy was very unlikely to die of boredom which waiting to become Duke of Savoy and for his wife to get him elected Holy Roman Emperor. But nasty things can happen to you when taken captive by Louis XIV and his allies. Just look at what happened (in G7) to King William of Orange, Prince Eugine of Savoy and Lord Murray etc, etc

This is third war between France and the Hapsburgs in G7. This one would seem to replace British Isles theatre of the first two with Italy but basically Spain is fighting 1) Franco-Spanish frontier 2) Flanders 3) Italy and 4) Naval/colonial while the Emperor is fighting 1) Rhineland 2) Italy and is probably also keeping watching brief on events in Poland-Lithuania.

Meanhile the French are dealing with 1) Franco-Spanish frontier 2) Flanders 3) Rhineland including any Imperial Princes who fancy themselves as a German hero and a suitable bridegroom (future Emperor) for the heiress of Austria 4) Italy and 5) Naval-Colonial inc against the Shah.

Too make up for fighting in more areas than anyone else and against more foes the French do have advantage of unified command and control and interior lines but you have to be a really good commander with a serious understanding of economy of force and time/distance to take full advantage. Esp if one of your opponents (ie me) has read up on these fancy concepts and went.....naaahhhh stick to simple direct and brutal and is actively trying to drag you down to his level and pin your troops in place. Its hard to do the fancy marches and concentration of force moves if your mounted arm gets stomped into the dirt mid way through the master plan.

Think its going to be really fun watching how the French play plays his hand and tries to use his advantages of interior lines and unified command to gain advantage over a combined foe who in total are superior in money, honour & total force strength. Think Moscow and several other places already have their note books and pencils out and pop corn at the ready.

Only thing I would say is to French commanders in Africa pleading for help to stop the Shah spreading his version of Islam and doing to French trade and colonies in Africa what he did to French trade and colonies in India............is that if the Shah goes up a gear and decides to borrow English tactics and fight the French to the last Hapsburg......I still think you guys are on your own.

by Papa Clement Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:16 pm

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Post n°284

Re: G7....War declared

by Papa Clement Thu Jul 06, 2023 9:16 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:A few French ships !? Since when has somewhere between 200 and 300 Warships of Frigate size and above been a few? And that is not counting all of the cutters and really small stuff.

Fairly sure I could get round or through a French blockade of Italy. Its the getting back which worries Spanish Admirals who traditionally (in G7) like to fight with tugs standing by and in sight of their repair yards, hospitals, magazines and serious coastal defenses just to be on the safe side.

Always an excuse! Let's just get this into perspective ...

1. Over half of those warships are Frigates which would not take part in any line of battle against French SoL.
2. This just leaves the lineships which have been on blockade for quite a few months now so will have a reasonably high sick list. Spanish SoL as you keep telling us are very solidly built, with lots of fancy improvements, upgraded guns, upgraded sails, carronades, etc, and also tend to be 100-gunners which gives each Spanish ship a 50:35 advantage for every broadside against a standard 70-gunner French SoL. So in single ship on ship engagements the French can fire only 70% of the shots that you can; probably less than that by weight; you will also be taking less damage given your larger ships, so you should stand a pretty good chance if the engagement is short. And of course the engagement will be short because all you have to do is break through with your convoy.
3. If that doesn't appeal, then the standard method for breaking a blockade would be fireships, and you've captured plenty of French liners which you could convert and send in to break up the French fleet. Once scattered, the superior sails of Spanish ships should mean you can get out easily.

So please don't tell me that Spanish ships can't fire when there's an 'R' in the month.

Getting back also shouldn't be a problem, because even if you ended up stuck in a Tuscan port, you don't have to come out until you are repaired and ready, and even then you can wait for the right wind to send you to Naples rather than back to Spain if you chose. There are plenty of Spanish-friendly repair yards you can run to.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Vienna is not that bad. With its cafes, culture, music etc think poor Prince Victor of Savoy was very unlikely to die of boredom which waiting to become Duke of Savoy and for his wife to get him elected Holy Roman Emperor. But nasty things can happen to you when taken captive by Louis XIV and his allies. Just look at what happened (in G7) to King William of Orange, Prince Eugine of Savoy and Lord Murray etc, etc

Traitors all, and looking back I can't believe how lenient I was with them.

King Louis could learn a lot from Jacobite Naval Intelligence, we don't mess around.

Stuart Bailey wrote:This is third war between France and the Hapsburgs in G7. This one would seem to replace British Isles theatre of the first two with Italy but basically

Spain is fighting
1) Franco-Spanish frontier
2) Flanders
3) Italy and
4) Naval/colonial

while the Emperor is fighting
1) Rhineland
2) Italy and is probably also keeping watching brief on events in Poland-Lithuania.

Meanwhile the French are dealing with
1) Franco-Spanish frontier
2) Flanders
3) Rhineland including any Imperial Princes who fancy themselves as a German hero and a suitable bridegroom (future Emperor) for the heiress of Austria
4) Italy and
5) Naval-Colonial inc against the Shah.

To make up for fighting in more areas than anyone else and against more foes the French do have advantage of unified command and control and interior lines but you have to be a really good commander with a serious understanding of economy of force and time/distance to take full advantage. Esp if one of your opponents (i.e. me) has read up on these fancy concepts and went.....naaahhhh stick to simple direct and brutal and is actively trying to drag you down to his level and pin your troops in place. Its hard to do the fancy marches and concentration of force moves if your mounted arm gets stomped into the dirt mid way through the master plan.

Think its going to be really fun watching how the French play plays his hand and tries to use his advantages of interior lines and unified command to gain advantage over a combined foe who in total are superior in money, honour & total force strength. Think Moscow and several other places already have their note books and pencils out and pop corn at the ready.

Nice try, except the 'emperor' isn't fighting, he's hiding. I don't buy all this 'future emperor' nonsense - any candidate has to get elected and be acceptable to those nations which have not been annexed by France. I still think we are looking at the end of the HRE in G7, unless ... someone could table a motion to dump Joseph as Emperor and elect a Wittlesbach instead, then using one of several excuses (incompetence, indolence, or perhaps just sheer embarrassment?) kick Austria out of the HRE, and let the rest of the HRE make a quick peace with France? Under that scenario, what is left of the HRE allied to France would end a lot of reasons for war, while leaving Austria free to be crushed by English armies in Poland. Who knows I might end up with some nice coastal Austrian duchy for my troubles? Or possibly even rule Austria? Of course I'd have to give up some of the ludicrously long list of titles Joseph claims, but I could sell a few of them off to raise money to pay for the war, introduce a special Jesuit tax for those who were either Jesuits or educated by them, and a goat tax for those who did not kill their goats by the end of my first month in charge. I'm not sure whether Austria has a Parliament, but that could also be abolished as a money saving exercise - I'm not terribly keen on Parliaments. Then there could be a special tax on nobles who are nasty to English countesses, 75% should do it; and one on Austrian merchants who banned English traders, perhaps only 50% on that. What else, oh yes, a music tax - about time they started having some proper music. And it is only right that Austria should contribute to the upkeep of the Royal Navy, so I could raise a Ship Money tax. Hungarians, who backed Prince Rakowski, would naturally pay a lower tax than Austrians, because they at least had some common sense in opposing him. And finally, a 'running away' tax, for those who were in the Austrian army sent to Poland; I wouldn't want that sort in any army of mine. All these new taxes would raise millions, plus however much is left over in the Austrian treasury from the millions Spain has given him. The more I think about it, the more financially viable this plan seems to be.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Only thing I would say is to French commanders in Africa pleading for help to stop the Shah spreading his version of Islam and doing to French trade and colonies in Africa what he did to French trade and colonies in India............is that if the Shah goes up a gear and decides to borrow English tactics and fight the French to the last Hapsburg......I still think you guys are on your own.

I'm not bailing France out of Africa, nor, I imagine, would he want me to, unless of course I use some of Austria's money to do it with. I can't defend the conduct of his war with Persia since he seems to have been doing only slightly more fighting against Persia as Austria has against Poland/France. Perhaps there is method in it, but if so I can't see it.

by Vauban Thu Jul 06, 2023 11:19 pm

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Post n°285

Re: G7....War declared

by Vauban Thu Jul 06, 2023 11:19 pm

Lovely reports and comments from Stuart and Papa, now the war has started one can slice through the tension with a Colichemarde...
Will the mad English King succeed in goading the Austrians into attacking the French? I'm not privvy to that information, but didn't the previous Austrian player try it and fail? Verbal foreplay aside I recommend 'The Grand Strategy of the Habsburg Empire' by Mitchell for historical context and some light bedtime reading...

by Stuart Bailey Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:39 am

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Post n°286

Re: G7....War declared

by Stuart Bailey Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:39 am

Vauban wrote:Lovely reports and comments from Stuart and Papa, now the war has started one can slice through the tension with a Colichemarde...
Will the mad English King succeed in goading the Austrians into attacking the French? I'm not privvy to that information, but didn't the previous Austrian player try it and fail? Verbal foreplay aside I recommend 'The Grand Strategy of the Habsburg Empire' by Mitchell for historical context and some light bedtime reading...

by Stuart Bailey Fri Jul 07, 2023 10:22 am

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Post n°287

Re: G7....War declared

by Stuart Bailey Fri Jul 07, 2023 10:22 am

Vauban wrote:Lovely reports and comments from Stuart and Papa, now the war has started one can slice through the tension with a Colichemarde...
Will the mad English King succeed in goading the Austrians into attacking the French? I'm not privvy to that information, but didn't the previous Austrian player try it and fail? Verbal foreplay aside I recommend 'The Grand Strategy of the Habsburg Empire' by Mitchell for historical context and some light bedtime reading...

Prior Austrian player fought the French twice:-

First time he won and reclaimed Franche-Comte for the Holy Roman Empire. Though probably fair to say he was greatly helped by a large part of the French Army being employed in England to restore the Jacobites and due to a seeming inability to understand basic logistics (ie troops need to be feed) only avoided a major military disaster when Spanish and Dutch allies arrived in time to defeat the French troops who had cut his main armies supply lines.

In second war which started over Jacobite (English) invasion of Scotland he proceeded to totally ignore the very close shave with cut supply lines in the first conflict and plunge even deeper into France yet again. To surprise of no one apart from the Emperor Leopold if you spend three months in the middle of France conducting a badly run siege (no siege guns!) you get your supply lines cut again. Only this time Spanish and Dutch armies did not make it in time to save the Emperor's main Army from being basically starved into surrender after they won the first clash.

This forced Spain which was otherwise winning its war to accept Jacobite conquest of Scotland in order to save the Emperor and Franche-Comte.

So basically France v Austria from 1700 is basically 1-1 at half time and it is to be hoped that the Austrian High Command has learnt from earlier experience that no matter how good they all in terms of tactics, drill, fancy uniform design, weapons armies still need to be FEED and supplied with gunpowder. So DO NOT allow the bloody frogs to get between you and your grain reserves and magazines.

Fact that the Emperor Josef first action in round three was to secure Strassbourg and his lines of communication and supply over the Rhine to Franche-Comte is hopefully evidence that the Imperial High Command has mastered the fact that the French are not interested in a fair fight with even numbers of Gentlemen meeting over cold steel and drink to settle matters ref Savoy and Genoa.

Rather Louis XIV generals being basically cads and bounders will do everything in their power to cut your supply lines and starve you and make sure that any fight is as uneven in terms of numbers as they can make it.

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by Stuart Bailey Fri Jul 07, 2023 11:22 am

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Post n°288

Re: G7....War declared

by Stuart Bailey Fri Jul 07, 2023 11:22 am

Papa Clement wrote:

So please don't tell me that Spanish ships can't fire when there's an 'R' in the month.

Its not so much as case of Spanish ships not being able to fire when there is an "R" in the month. More a case of Spanish Cavalry having the same belief as Russian sailors that its bad luck to get on a ship if their is an "R" in the month!

Spanish Horse transports also view it as terrible bad luck to sail in same waters as a 150 hostile frigates. So we are taking the longer land route to Savoy as less likely to cause horses to suffer from sea sickness and other perils of the sea.

Jokes aside the French seem to have gone for a massive concentration of Naval force to try and "seal" of Savoy and the Italian threatre from Spanish reinforcements. While at same time starting campaign late in the season so any Austrian reinforcements likely to be crossing Alps in winter. They may also have calculated that any Austrian/Imperial support for Savoy would be delayed or distracted due by events in Poland.

All in all its a almost text book use of the concentration of force principle. The disadvantage of such massive concentration such as by the French Naval force in the Western Med is that everywhere else the iniative has been conceded to Persian and Spanish raiders etc.

Oh course if we end up with French Savoy and Spanish Canada were the hell will the Russians want to draw the eastern frontier line of Russian Alaska? Probably somewhere on Hudson bay knowing them. Based on the Russian map makes theory that if it is cold has lots of trees and produces furs then it must be part of Russia or is that written in some Orthodox Holy Text?

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by Jason2 Fri Jul 07, 2023 1:50 pm

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Post n°289

Re: G7....War declared

by Jason2 Fri Jul 07, 2023 1:50 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Oh course if we end up with French Savoy and Spanish Canada were the hell will the Russians want to draw the eastern frontier line of Russian Alaska? Probably somewhere on Hudson bay knowing them. Based on the Russian map makes theory that if it is cold has lots of trees and produces furs then it must be part of Russia or is that written in some Orthodox Holy Text?

Don't worry Stuart, the nice, cuddly and incredibly-respectful-of-local-native-peoples Department East would never do such a thing as everything east of Department East in Alaska belongs to the Inuit and Comanche...large-scale seizing of native population lands is something the backward, barbaric Department East leaves to you civilised Western Europeans.

by Papa Clement Fri Jul 07, 2023 2:40 pm

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Post n°290

Re: G7....War declared

by Papa Clement Fri Jul 07, 2023 2:40 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:Prior Austrian player fought the French twice:-

First time he won and reclaimed Franche-Comte for the Holy Roman Empire. Though probably fair to say he was greatly helped by a large part of the French Army being employed in England to restore the Jacobites and due to a seeming inability to understand basic logistics (ie troops need to be fed) only avoided a major military disaster when Spanish and Dutch allies arrived in time to defeat the French troops who had cut his main armies supply lines.

If memory serves it was Spain who did most of the fighting in this war. Austria broke her defensive treaty signed only 3 months earlier with France, then seized an undefended Besancon and basically sat inside the town for a year while France tried (under the old restricted military change order rules) to get her armies back from England. Austria was arguably heading for defeat when Spain joined in and (under the new unrestricted orders rules) was able to occupy all of southern France very quickly, then just keep pressing north swallowing up more and more territory. A stunning series of Spanish victories, aided by the rule changes, certainly not an Austrian victory.

Stuart Bailey wrote:In second war which started over Jacobite (English) invasion of Scotland he proceeded to totally ignore the very close shave with cut supply lines in the first conflict and plunge even deeper into France yet again. To surprise of no one apart from the Emperor Leopold if you spend three months in the middle of France conducting a badly run siege (no siege guns!) you get your supply lines cut again. Only this time Spanish and Dutch armies did not make it in time to save the Emperor's main Army from being basically starved into surrender after they won the first clash.

This forced Spain which was otherwise winning its war to accept Jacobite conquest of Scotland in order to save the Emperor and Franche-Comte.

In this war Austria tried to copy Spanish tactics, but as Stuart said, completely messed up supplies and spent more time marching around increasing SL than actually fighting. Then when it did come to a fight, she was sandwiched in-between rivers with nowhere to retreat to and lost the lot. It is worth pointing out that this war (unlike the last one) was against the current French player who demonstrated a fine grasp of military movement and was able to use his internal lines of communication/supply to great effect.

Spain had withdrawn from England (or rather Scotland) at least a game year before the Austrian army had been defeated, having done a deal with Russia for them to pull out of the war. UDP fought on having been given £8M to do so by Spain, and Spanish units, which were eventually defeated after UDP broke the ceasefire. Austria made a series of blunders in this campaign, not least giving 30,000 Austrian recruits to UDP because, presumably, he thought UDP would do a better job at fighting than he could. The result was that when the 80,000+ Austrian army was destroyed by France, he had no reserves to throw in. This was really a catastrophic defeat for Austria and it remains a mystery why France did not demand Franche-Comte back as part of their peace settlement.

Stuart Bailey wrote:So basically France v Austria from 1700 is basically 1-1 at half time and it is to be hoped that the Austrian High Command has learnt from earlier experience that no matter how good they all in terms of tactics, drill, fancy uniform design, weapons armies still need to be FED and supplied with gunpowder. So DO NOT allow the bloody frogs to get between you and your grain reserves and magazines.

I don't see how you can judge this 1-1 given that it was Spain which won the first war, not Austria. I can't comment on the tactics, drill, uniforms, weapons, etc of the new Austrian army because all it has done is run away to hide in Poland.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
Fact that the Emperor Josef first action in round three was to secure Strassbourg and his lines of communication and supply over the Rhine to Franche-Comte is hopefully evidence that the Imperial High Command has mastered the fact that the French are not interested in a fair fight with even numbers of Gentlemen meeting over cold steel and drink to settle matters ref Savoy and Genoa.

Since there seems some dispute as to what happened in Strassburg, here is the newspaper entry: "Five battalions of the Gratz Regiment of the Army of Austria marched into Strassburg, where amongst other forces the Baden-Baden Regiment of the Army of Baden was stationed, under Colonel Niklas Wegmann. The Austrians announced Strassburg is now an Imperial Free City, albeit one under the administrative control of Baden-Baden. Wegmann was surprised to hear this, but certainly did not argue about it! The Holy Roman Emperor sent a message suggesting Margrave Louis William von Baden-Baden appoint a magistrate to run the civil administration of the city, someone with Germanic or Hapsburg connections, someone Catholic rather than Lutheran? News also reached Strassburg outlining that while the civil administration was being run by Baden-Baden, the military administration will come under Imperial command with Austrian units present now being designated units of the Reichsarmee. Colonel Herberstein informed Colonel Wegmann that his regiment was also now part of the Reichsarmee. Again Wegmann was surprised, but rather than submit he marched his regiment out of the city and got away! Herberstein was not terribly annoyed by this, being more pleased to discover he has just been promoted from the rank of colonel to that of Major-General, a reward for his inspired capture of the city without bloodshed. He is now in command of the Imperial garrison of Strassburg, and has ensured the Rhine bridge is clear of obstacles and open to traffic. In the absence of a new civil head, since the appointment has not yet been made, Herberstein demanded all French traders vacate the city immediately, on pain of death. He also publically declared Austria will provide funds to Baden to raise further forces in Strassburg as part of its commitment to the Imperial Circle, a sum of 1-2,000,000 guineas having been suggested for this purpose. French merchants left the city in something of a fright, but the coin for the Margrave of Baden-Baden has not yet been handed over to His Grace or the Margrave’s Treasury, so far as we know."

Now the way I read this is that Strassburg (which was under the rule of Baden, a member of the HRE), opened its gates to allow what they believed was a friendly Austrian contingent of 5F to enter. Said 5F then seizes control of the town from Baden WITHOUT A DECLARATION OF WAR and attempts to force the Army of Baden to join the Reichsarmy. Rather than submit, the Army of Baden marched out of Strassburg, presumably on its way back to Baden in disgust.

It seems to me that in addition to his other crimes, 'emperor' Joseph has simply tried to annex Strassburg from another Imperial ruler. That can hardly have been an honourable act, nor one to encourage Baden to support Austria in the future, as evidenced by Baden voting against the mobilisation of the Reichsarmy.

Since when has the first move in a war (which incidentally has been going on for long enough for France to take Savoy), consisted of attacking your ally?

by Jason2 Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:14 pm

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Post n°291

Re: G7....War declared

by Jason2 Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:14 pm

Looking at the interesting and informative posts so far, it does seem that people are focusing on how Austria, for example, fought the last war. Isn't that considered to be the usual failing of "military intelligence"? It's not the last war you need to worry about, it's how your enemy/ally will fight the next (or current) war.

I mean, look at Russia, last war we fought was in the British Isles, and we wouldn't fight a war in the same way again...which is why the military of Dept East is now equipped with Hueys, Challenger tanks and CVA-01 aircraft carriers Wink

(warning-post may contain nuts)

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by J Flower Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:47 am

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Post n°292

Re: G7....War declared

by J Flower Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:47 am

I do wonder what Field Marshal Alexander Vasilievitch Count Surorov- Rimnisky. Will make of his new command, Just have to hope he has the latest maps from the Russian Admiralties Cartography Dept. Don't want him getting dropped of on the wrong beach, bucket & spade are no good on pebble beaches.

It appears Russian Generals have developed two tactical schools of thought

1) Charge, if that fails Drink Vodka & Charge Again .Then if that doesn't work charge again, third time lucky & all that.(only if enough Vodka is available)
2) Mass Artillery & possibly fire, or wait for Vodka to take effect as it helps increase the number of targets available. Then proceed as "1" above.

So depending on which school of doctrine is followed vodka consumption may vary.

by Stuart Bailey Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:36 pm

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Post n°293

Re: G7....War declared

by Stuart Bailey Sat Jul 08, 2023 11:36 pm

I am pleased to see that the Russian Generals are sticking firmly to historic Russian tactics of cold steel, the clubbed musket and vodka. Rather than try and get the Serfs to adopt any of the fancy foreign stuff like marching in step, platoon fire, cutting off their beards and drinking wine.

Clearly the Generals have taken a look at efforts of mostly foreign Admirals trying to turn a perfectly good force of river pirates into something which sails outside of sight of the river bank and cuts holes in boats to fit lots of (top heavy) cannon. And had to call for a extra vodka ration.

Think Russian generals are probably correct in Glori normally pays to stay fairly close to the historic model and just work around the edges.

As for the Austrian High Command I really hope they do something different too the last war against the French. Since following the last war it cost Charles von Hapsburg at least £30m to rebuild the damage his dear old Dad did too the Austrian Army and economic base of the Hapsburg home territory.

Probably better example of improved tactics v someone trying to do same again was the French in first and second wars. In first Austrians traps Louis XIV and a major French Army in Chalons. French Army of the North then march to trap Austrians between walls of Chalons and the new French Army. But they leave route from north open and Spanish relief force arrives in nick of time to save Austrians.

In 2nd war Austrians get stuck even further into France. French forces march to save their threatened capital/king/treasury but leave enough behind to stop Spanish forces just following them. With Madrid screaming at them for three months to fall back and saying yes they would. Austrians High Command get a case of the red mist and elect to fight with cut supply lines in the middle of France and surprize, surprize got stuffed.

Why French then did not try and take advantage of their victory by a invasion of Frenche-Comte and the Empire and instead proposed a treaty which gave their Jacobite allies Scotland but gained them nothing and cost the Hapsburg nothing and returned their captured Austrian 1st Army (well 50,000 plus POWs/recruits who had to be reformed from bottom up) remains a mystery. Perhaps they just did not fancy trying to take back all of the frontier fortresses they had lost to a still intact Spanish Army including Calais, Perpignan etc.

Probably needs to be said that when Austrians forced French to concentrate against them and suffer losses in north and south because ot it......if the Austrians had then faded backwards. French would have ended season with losses in North and South and main forces in middle of France. Fadeing away like that was used earlier in war by Spanish Army in south who won a major victory over French in south and forced French to concentrate against them which spoiled French invasion of low countries and allowed Austrians to make major progress.

So French interior lines while handy at not a unbeatable advantage. Get it wrong and a French Army could find Austrian Hussars or Spanish Cavalry charging into their rear area. France is big but its not Russia or the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth.

by Jason2 Sun Jul 09, 2023 10:23 am

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Post n°294

Re: G7....War declared

by Jason2 Sun Jul 09, 2023 10:23 am

That's a good summary Stuart, thanks Smile

Looking at it from outside the current conflicts, for me we have a different Austrian player now and that might well mean they will fight in a different way. That may not be more successful but at least it will be different.

Doesn't mean old hands can't do things differently. To me, Papa Clement is a good example, each war he fights he introduces new approaches that catch his enemy off-guard. Same applies to you Stuart.

Though I always think the battles and wars in Glory are a bit like playing D&D, lots of rules and guidance but there is also a Games Master in the background rolling a D20 dice and one day a battle is going to be turned totally on its head by roll of 19 and at the moment of your overwhelming victory, all your horse spook at the sight of a tree branch waving and run off the battlefield Very Happy

by J Flower Sun Jul 09, 2023 11:12 am

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Post n°295

Re: G7....War declared

by J Flower Sun Jul 09, 2023 11:12 am

Stuart Bailey wrote:I am pleased to see that the Russian Generals are sticking firmly to historic Russian tactics of cold steel, the clubbed musket and vodka. Rather than try and get the Serfs to adopt any of the fancy foreign stuff like marching in step, platoon fire, cutting off their beards and drinking wine.

Clearly the Generals have taken a look at efforts of mostly foreign Admirals trying to turn a perfectly good force of river pirates into something which sails outside of sight of the river bank and cuts holes in boats to fit lots of (top heavy) cannon. And had to call for a extra vodka ration.

Think Russian generals are probably correct in Glori normally pays to stay fairly close to the historic model and just work around the edges.
So French interior lines while handy at not a unbeatable advantage. Get it wrong and a French Army could find Austrian Hussars or Spanish Cavalry charging into their rear area. France is big but its not Russia or the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Ummmm the bit about where France actually may or may not be in a Geographical sense, is still not 100% confirmed among members of the Russian Admiralties Cartography Department there is a part of the map marked "Here be Amphibians!" maybe need to redraw the map......

by Papa Clement Sun Jul 09, 2023 12:23 pm

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Post n°296

Re: G7....War declared

by Papa Clement Sun Jul 09, 2023 12:23 pm

Jason2 wrote:Looking at it from outside the current conflicts, for me we have a different Austrian player now and that might well mean they will fight in a different way. That may not be more successful but at least it will be different.

I can agree with Stuart's earlier point that France's internal lines of communication/supply are not always an advantage, but it is the kind of advantage that personally I would prefer to have.

I'm sure the new Austrian player will examine his options and bring his own skills to whatever fighting he is involved with. He just seems to have a strange way of going about it so far. And unless he is determined not to co-ordinate his efforts with his Spanish ally, he may be causing both of them more problems than they can handle.

Jason2 wrote:Doesn't mean old hands can't do things differently. To me, Papa Clement is a good example, each war he fights he introduces new approaches that catch his enemy off-guard. Same applies to you Stuart.

Though I always think the battles and wars in Glory are a bit like playing D&D, lots of rules and guidance but there is also a Games Master in the background rolling a D20 dice and one day a battle is going to be turned totally on its head by roll of 19 and at the moment of your overwhelming victory, all your horse spook at the sight of a tree branch waving and run off the battlefield

Thanks Jason2 ... I always try to come up with a slight twist on what I'm doing, partly to learn the lessons of previous wars, and partly because each new war is different with different challenges. The Polish campaign is not one I expected to be fighting, and (from England's viewpoint) is limited in scope and objectives. It will be particularly interesting to see how much logistical support and co-operation I receive from an inactive Poland. If I've planned it right then I shouldn't have to do that much. But will the Poles show up when they are needed? Will they pursue the routed enemy off the field with their light cavalry and cossacks? Or will the GM keep letting the Prussians and Austrians escape the net? Perhaps you will be proved right about the D20? Although I suspect the D20 only gets rolled for player positions, not GM-controlled Poland where armies can mysteriously teleport hundreds of miles in a single turn and/or never suffer increased SL or run low on powder, etc. Researching the campaign has certainly been a challenge since I knew next to nothing about Poland a couple of months ago, but that's part of the attraction of the game - to learn about countries and their history, especially those I would never have considered playing myself. So I'm quite looking forward to how this develops.

by Jason2 Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:12 pm

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Post n°297

Re: G7....War declared

by Jason2 Sun Jul 09, 2023 8:12 pm

I do agree Papa, it is always interesting to see how NPCs under attack seem to gain some magical properties and yes will be fascinating to see what happens next, especially with winter coming up.

by Stuart Bailey Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:26 am

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Post n°298

Re: G7....War declared

by Stuart Bailey Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:26 am

Jason2 wrote:I do agree Papa, it is always interesting to see how NPCs under attack seem to gain some magical properties and yes will be fascinating to see what happens next, especially with winter coming up.

Problem I have found with counting on NPC's is that if a PC position attacks a NPC position. On their own the NPC's suddenly start acting like the garrison of Malta v the Ottoman siege and develop abilitiy to teleport, cloak movement and ignore sickness levels. While your forces get SL #2 going for a gentle walk in the sunshine.

But if a PC moves to help the attacked NPC's they suddenly seem to move into do nothing mode. Egypt, Sultanate, Syria in suddenly withdrawing from action the moment Rumelia moved to help them springs to mind. Though still think the most blatent display was when the Prussian Holy Roman Emperor in G2 moved against some naughty vassels and the French Army moved to help Baden.

Right in the middle of the largest and my far the most bloody battle ever seen in Glori the Baden forces sat and did not fire a shot.

by Nexus06 Mon Jul 24, 2023 2:21 pm

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Post n°299

Re: G7....War declared

by Nexus06 Mon Jul 24, 2023 2:21 pm

Hello there,

Just poppin’ in a moment to compliment with French Player in G7.

I was reading Saint-Simon memories, because I’m studying the economic causes of French Revolution, and he thinks (quite fondly) that the path that lead to the crisis French Monarchy (pre-revolution, he had no idea of course of what would be after) started with the loss of the siege of Turin and consequently the end of French influence in Italy. Other memorialists of later age agrees, so i must compliment with the French player as he managed to avoid the French Revolution!

Well Played Sir.

Kind Regards

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by count-de-monet Mon Jul 24, 2023 3:14 pm

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Post n°300

Re: G7....War declared

by count-de-monet Mon Jul 24, 2023 3:14 pm

this could be a real classic LGDR game. Stuart has an illustrious and famed history with campaigning in the game and I am sure he is going to be a very formidable foe, I dont know who the French player he but I agree he has made an impressive impact and not to forget Papa who began the game in an awful position and facing many (ganged up on?!) enemies and still forged out a very successful position. Get the popcorn ready.

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G7....War declared