The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

My view is that if the Jacobites are active slipping them cash, troops etc is a really good move for the French esp if other powers are doing the same thing and the Jacobites are clearly not too much under the thumb of the French.

The more problematic move is France trying to restore Jacobite rule when they are not active. In the Hague, Vienna etc this looks like a "Game Winning/Game Breaker" move and is very likely to result in a coalition to stop it and no one wanting to be allied with you.

In theory France has the troops/ships etc to win such a war but its a sod from a command and control point of view.

In G9 may be a good one for France to try something since England is clearly at least 50% responsible for the bad relations, The UDP does not seem to be doing much and the Emperor is rather busy with Venice/Spain etc.

On subject of Spain and the Emperor....... who the hell "Knocked up" his sister in law the Dowager Queen of Spain?????????

Since it was clearly not the King her husband who was......... a) No able b) Could not stand his 2nd wife and C) Was on his death bed
the Question is was it:

- The Hapsburgs or a Spanish Noble aiming to pass off the new Baby as Carlos II

- The Venetian Envoy trying to humiliate the Emperor. Seems to me the Emperor now has to either call his sister in law a whore and publically admitt a Habsburg King has been cuckolded on his death bed. Or he has to pretend that the baby is Carlos II's and the true Hapsburg Heir to the throne of Spain and have the whole of Europe laughing at him.

The interesting question is how the Bourbon family will react if the Emperor/Spanish accept the new Baby as Carlos II's. Do they accept that the birth is a miracle or do they call the Dowager Hapsburg Queen a whore and the baby a b*****d with no claim to Carlos II inheritence.  

I do agree with you on France Deacon, it does require a lot of effort and money...which does appeal to some, which is good of course

Deacon wrote:
Well, no, you probably don't want him to take the throne, but witness game 7.  England went completely into the can while trying to deal with it, so it isn't like even if he got the throne that would necessarily mean he would keep it, and then you have a ready made excuse for war whenever you want to go beat up on the english.

You'd have carte blanche to set up agents all over england to rabble rouse for James, and you could deny it all.

I'm not saying I'd do it, but then France isn't the kind of position I'd like to play.  Too big and too central to everything.  You'd have to commit a ton of time (and money) to do France right.

I think backing a active Catholic-Stuart cause in the British Isles is a good move esp if other powers are backing the Stuarts and they do not look too much like a French lapdog.

Its a more tricky situation if the jacobites are not active and French backing for them looks like an attempt by Paris to grab control of the London Government/Royal Navy. Since this will be viewed in Vienna, the Hague etc as a game breaker/changer and is very likely to result in a coalition against France.

G7 offers a classic example of this with France ending up having to fight Austria, Spain and the UDP. None of these powers were close allies of the English and most agreed the French had a case but the general view was that if Louis XiV got control of England he would be unstoppable.

In theory this is a war the French have the troops and ships to win but the command and control problems is a killer for any one player.

G8 may offer a better opportunity for France since the UDP does not seem active, Spain is not dominated by Hapsburg loyalists and the Emperor seems very preoccupied by his rows with Venice.

On the subject of the Emperor and Spain.........who has "Knocked up" his sister-in-law? The Dowager Queen of Spain. Clearly it is not he husband who was a) not able b) did not like his 2nd wife and c) was on his death bed. Possible fathers inc:

a) A Hapsburg or Spanish noble aiming to block Philip of Anjou

or

b) The Venetian Envoy trying to humiliate the Emperor. Leopold now either has to admitt his sister in law is is a whore and the last Hapsburg King of Spain was cuckolded on his death bed or claim its a miracle and the baby is Carlos II and the true Hapsburg heir (and probably have most of Europe sniggering behind his back)

If the Emperor does claim the baby is a miracle and not a Vemetian (?) b*******d its going to be interesting to see how Philip of Anjou and the Bourbons react to what would be a blatent robbery of one of the true heirs of Carlos II.

This is starting to look interesting and whoever is behind the new baby has really put the cat amongst the pigeons.

So the unborn child, if legit, could be 'King' (or queen)? Would that actually be allowed to happen?

Jason wrote:So the unborn child, if legit, could be 'King' (or queen)?  Would that actually be allowed to happen?  

Three questions in one here:

1) If a baby is born after the death of its parent can it inherit the lands etc of the dec'd? - Yes, it can no problem at all.

2) If the baby is accepted as Carlos II's and it is a girl can it inherit Carlos II titles? Yes & No - In Spain and Naples a girl can inherit a Royal Title for example Isabella of Castille while Charles V inherited the crown of Spain via his mother. Possible problem with Flanders (a ex French fief) were Salic Law applies. Salic Law may also apply in Milan.

3) Can a baby inherit if it is not Legitimate? In theory this is an absolute No and only low class rebels such as those who followed the Duke of Monmouth would say otherwise. In theory a child can be declared legitimate by the Church but this normally needs the Father to marry the mother and no legitimate heirs.

Basically for this baby to become King/Queen of Spain the Queen is going to have to say the baby is the Kings and the Church/Nobility of Spain will have to accept it as such. Then its going to have to be born alive...........considering the degree of in-breeding and the condition of the father a sickly deformed one may be accepted as his......a healthy olive skinned bonny baby and people are going to smell a very large Venetian Rat!

We will then have to see if Salic Law applies in the event of a girl and who the disappointed heirs react. Personally if I was running the Boubons (which I am not) you would get a scream of "lying Hapsburg tart" and the Lilly Banners would be heading for the Frontier!

Given Joanna the mad, was a previous female heir I doubt Salic law is applicable. The Dowager Queens sudden pregnancy suits the Cardinal, he avoids a foreign King, with powerful foreign backers and remains the effective regent. I would not be surprised if the queen deliveries a health baby boy and then tragically dies. If the Dowager Queens lives the Cardinal then faces a possible pro Hapsburg Regent, not particularly well disposed to his sale of Milan to Venice. Historicailly the Queen was a devout Catholic unlikely to take a lover Venetian or otherwise.

I think that situation is ripe for agents to play havoc with the Spanish.

Even if the child is the king's which seems unlikely to me given his health, just really talking up the rumor that the queen took a lover would damage him for a long, long time and make his hold on the throne tenuous.  It would give the French and the Austrians an excuse to mess with Spain for many, many years to come.

Mind you, I'm surprised that no one else has done this before, it seems like hooking up the queen with a handsome young stable hand who you shiv'd when the deed was done would solve a lot of the problems of the spanish succession if you could get people to buy it...

Goldstar wrote:Given Joanna the mad, was a previous female heir I doubt Salic law is applicable.  The Dowager Queens sudden pregnancy suits the Cardinal, he avoids a foreign King, with powerful foreign backers and remains the effective regent.  I would not be surprised if the queen deliveries a health baby boy and then tragically dies. If the Dowager Queens lives the Cardinal then faces a possible pro Hapsburg Regent, not particularly well disposed to his sale of Milan to Venice. Historicailly the Queen was a devout Catholic unlikely to take a lover Venetian or otherwise.

On the subject of Salic law and the inheritance from Carlos II it is important to remember that Carlos II did not rule Flanders, Milan & Naples because he was King of Spain but because he was Duke of Flanders, Duke of Milan and King of Naples and that different rules apply in different lands.

A classic example of this from a later period is Queen Victoria who inherited the British crown but not Hanover due to the fact that Salic law applies in Hanover but not in the British Isles.

As a rough rule of thumb in 1700 I would say that Salic law applies in France & the Empire. So as things stand if the Queens baby is legitimate and a girl then she is Queen of Spain and Queen of Naples but not Duchess of Flanders and probably not the Duchess of Milan.  Which oddly may suit some people more than a boy inheriting the lot.

Of course - like the English law which says that a Catholic can not be King of England - there is nothing stopping people in game from changing laws they dont like.  Indeed at the very end of our period the Austrians changed their Salic inheritance laws so that Maria Theresa could inherit the Austrian Lands.

It should be noted that the Austrian change did cause the War of the Austrian Succession.

Thanks Stuart, a useful summary...I do find the whole situation a tad confusing and am never sure where Salic law applies...

Jason wrote:Thanks Stuart, a useful summary...I do find the whole situation a tad confusing and am never sure where Salic law applies...

In theory Salic laws apply in former Frankish Lands and the name comes from the one of the Frankish Tribes which created the Merovingian and Carolingian states.

Since succession in these states tended to be a bit rough and ready and normally ended up going to the most able adult male ie the one with the biggest axe some people would argue that Salic Laws in their written legalistic form were something cooked up by French Lawyers to stop Edward III claiming the throne of France.

Their may be an element of truth in this but quite clearly the Lawyers were working on the basis of some earlier inheritance laws.

If players wish to argue their rights/wrongs on the basis of salic law but keep it vaguely realistic (ie like 1340's French Lawyers) they should keep two things in mind:

I) Its Salic Laws not Salic Law...........different versions do exist. The hard core French version adopted to stop Edward III does not allow inheritance via the female line while other versions would stop a daughter following her father to the throne but would allow her sons to become King.

II) Its not 100% clear if Salic law applies only in Frankish lands proper or in all the lands which formed the Carolingian Empire.......thus Salic law would apply in Flanders but would it apply in Milan? Part of the Carolingian Empire but not Frankish.

Thought for the week.......what would have happened in G7 if the Queen of Spain had a baby girl and the RKL had turned loose his crack French Lawyers.

As for the theory that Cardinal Portocarrero in G9 would be so underhand as to have the Queen cuckold the King with a lusty stable boy and then do away with them I am shocked at such a mean spirited theory. I prefer the theory that its a "miracle" and when the challenge happens the wronged and insulted queen will appear before the cortez with her infant in her arms to plead for their support. Ok bit of a rip off of Maria Theresa asking the Hungarian Diet for a Army but I prefer it to all this man in the Iron Mask and Three Musketeers style stuff. Poor old Portocarrero is not a Frog Cardinal !!!

Mind you...........anyone fancy playing a lusty Spanish stable boy now on route to the America's as a for God King & Country Character?

Whilst in the far away snow covered lands of Sweden, and so really nothing to do with me, I think the Kingdom of Sweden will recognise this new baby, once born as the legitimate heir in Spain (game 9).

Cardinal Portocarrio may not be a Richelieu or a Mazarin, but his best buddy the Doge of Venice makes Machiavelli look like a choir boy. As for the Man in the iron mask, is the Dowager queen bearing twins?

Another turn has passed, another turn has passed! Quite a bit of activity in ol' Germany this time around. The conference seems like it may be off to a bit of a poor start, but hopefully as the other members start talking things will develop. Meanwhile England seems to have a bit of backlash for their popery business. Not only are the Dutch loudly complaining, but now the people of England itself are starting to turn to violence again. So much for the idea of an enlightened game for that one.

mmcdhoward wrote:Another turn has passed, another turn has passed! Quite a bit of activity in ol' Germany this time around. The conference seems like it may be off to a bit of a poor start, but hopefully as the other members start talking things will develop. Meanwhile England seems to have a bit of backlash for their popery business. Not only are the Dutch loudly complaining, but now the people of England itself are starting to turn to violence again. So much for the idea of an enlightened game for that one.

The news that the Hapsburg Dowager Queen of Spain is with Child seems to have rather scuppered the Conference & the Bavarian Claim to Spain.

Oddly the Emperor and the King of France seem to have accepted that the baby is a legitimate heir and no nasty names are being used so it seems we will have a Hapsburg (in blood? or just name?) as the next King/Queen of Spain. Just not the one we expected.

Well another turn has come and gone in the great world of Game 9 and once again the rhetoric coming from both England and France is going up a gear. Bishop Compton gave a sermon at St Paul's reminding us all that good old King Louis is as guilty of victimizing a Huguenots as Sir Sidney Godolphin is. I look forward to the next installment of this chapter as at this rate it will not be long before the rhetoric gets out of hand.

The English seem to be tightening there grip on the coasts with a capture of smuggled goods into the country.

The Country gentlemen of York are fighting each other I wonder what the response from London will be in response to a catholic attacking an Anglican. Based on the policies that have been coming out of London could we expect further pro Anglican policies.

The meeting in Bavaria is a bit of a non starter but with the English arriving this turn I wonder what will happen, again taking Stuarts comment, is the meeting now a waste of time considering that the Queen is now pregnant the real question is who will accept this miracle child.

To move away from European politics finally somebody has captured a pirate in the West Indes, but was it just too easy.

All in all I would say that it was a good turn, I look forward to the next.

The Senate of Venice declares the Adriatic an Venetian Lake, threatening to sink any Austrian Shipping and placing Austrian ports under blockade. No declaration of war?
The Spanish lock up the pregnant Dowager Queen, any bets a tragic death in child birth is on the cards?
The Bavarian' s all but accuse the Spanish Cardinal of trying to place an illegitimate puppet on the throne of Spain.
The Age of Enlightenment indeed.

I think putting the questionable birth offspring of a handsome young cavalry man who recently died in a tragic accident (fell on his sword 4 times) on the throne of spain is a great idea!

Deacon wrote:
I think putting the questionable birth offspring of a handsome young cavalry man who recently died in a tragic accident (fell on his sword 4 times) on the throne of spain is a great idea!

Why  

If the Spanish want to snub the claim of Louis XIV Grandson and keep a Hapsburg Monarch what is the advantage of having a infant King/Queen of questionable birth on the throne rather than crowning Charles Hapsburg?

Charles Hapsburg gives Spain an adult male ruler who can unite the Spanish Empire and the anti French powers of Europe to block
Louis XIV.

But if the French do march who is going to be happy to rally behind this cause?

It worked well for the Spanish in game 7. They kept their Empire, including Milan, and are currently doing very well. The problem for the Emperor in game 9 includes does he go after Venice and stand up for Hapsburg rights in Spain, leading to war with France, and keep control in the Empire. Its not easy being a Hapsburg emperor.

All joking aside, it keeps Spain out of the Austrian-French feud.

The bottom line is the Cardinal wants to remain the real power in Spain. Carlos II and a powerless infant suits his purpose, Archduke Karl is unlikely to support his support of Venice. The Cardinal seems determined to support Venice even though it is clearly not in the long term interests of Spain.

As Sweden in the north of Germany, I have to wonder - if the Emperor cannot deal with Venice, protect Hapsburg interests in Spain and hold off the French, will he be able to keep the Empire together. Will there be another thirty years war in Germany. In which case should Sweden look to expand its control in north Germany? The Emperor has to show that he can control events or events will control him.

Goldstar wrote:The bottom line is the Cardinal wants to remain the real power in Spain.  Carlos II and a powerless infant suits his purpose, Archduke Karl is unlikely to support his support of Venice.  The Cardinal seems determined to support Venice even though it is clearly not in the long term interests of Spain.

In most games of Glory du Roi the Spanish (Cardinal Portocarrero) have followed history and crowned Philip of Anjou.  In theory but not always in practice this obtains security on Spain's Northern border and obtains French protection for the otherwise exposed Spanish Empire.

In G7 the Spanish went the other way and crowned the Hapsburg.  Partly this was a result of the game starting with a Spanish Bourbon and a Spanish Hapsburg player and then the Bourbon dropped out but this path has shown some diplomatic and other advantages over playing a Bourbon 2nd fiddle.

In G9 the Spanish also seem to be turning down the claim of Philip of Anjou but rather than seeking the support of the Emperor and his Anglo-Dutch allies they seem to have gone for an alliance with Venice  

A) Is Venice going to stop the French if the Lilly Banners start to move?

B) Is Venice a diplomatic advantage or considering its relations with the Emperor, Bavaria, Poland etc.....a liability?

C) Is alliance with Venice worth the surrender of the Duchy of Milan?  In some games it has been given up to the Austrian Hapsburgs and in G2 Phillip of Anjou lost it after a hell of a fight with a proper Ottoman Warlord (not one of the new style pastry chefs) in G7 no one has yet made a move on Carlos Hapsburg's Duchy but one suspects the first Venetian to touch it is a dead Doge.

In game 8 Milan was surrendered to Austria when Portugal took the Spanish Throne. Austrian recognized the Portuguese claim to the Throne.

I think many of Spain's paths are fraught with Peril.

As a lesson from Game 8, I'd point out that the Cardinal depends upon an infant heir at his peril, since as only regent, he can be replaced, and his position is not nearly as unassailable as those who rule by right of blood.

All this is a way of saying that the cardinal's enemies in game 9 have a lot to work with, and a lot they can accomplish without firing a shot.

As a forum spectator, I'll look forward to seeing how it plays out, because I would think that Venice is going to lose, provided that Austria focuses and doesn't go off half-cocked.

I don't see why Spain would want to back venice at all...

In terms pure material terms ie number of men, ships, money, recruits etc the in game Spanish position is as strong as anyone.

But the Govt in Madrid has real problems with Geography.

Essentially, it is impossible to keep enough forces in place to defend Flanders and Spain against the French for example without Milan/Naples etc being left guarded by one man and his dog. Or if you think the major threat is the Ottomans Flanders and the America's ends up guarded by Sgt Pedro and spot.

The other option used by most Spanish Govts is to have fairly strong forces in place (but not strong enough to do much more than hold out for a while) and rely on local allies and Seaborne reinforcements to save the day if someone puts in a strong attack.

In this respect Venice with its naval strength is a potentially valuable ally. But I don't see alliance with the Doge is worth Milan! Esp if the Doge in G9 seems to being going out of his way to annoy the hell out of The Emperor etc.

As for "Junior" I can see the G9 Spanish Cardinal having concern's working for a "French" or a "German" and thinking a local may be a better option. But I tend to think his concerns are fairly groundless.

In G2 Phillip Bourbon Duc of Anjou and King of Spain when not fighting the English or taking over Portugal spent his time bullying his Grandfathers and Fathers ministers. Talk about "over mighty subject".

In G8 We have a Portugese (how odd) but its not hurt Spain.

In G7 we have Carlos Hapsburg - at one stage feared as a tool of his father, then feared as a tool of the Catholic Church in Spain - but is he actually dominated by anyone? Or does he just like someone else to take the blame?