The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Goldstar wrote:Gunboats and corvettes are for amateurs, go bonkers and build a Danube frigate.  SMS Theresia , laid down 1768 , two masts, 14 oar, 38 gun Frigate.  Pride of the Danube flotilla despite constantly grounding in the rivers shallows.

Anyone know if the Rhine or the Danube is a wider and deeper river?

Not sure about the C18 but my impression was that a two mast 14 oar (per side of just 14 total?) 38 Gun frigate is even more likely to spend most of its time run aground on the Rhine than on the Danube.

According to Bing AI chat:

In terms of depth and width, the Danube is generally deeper than the Rhine. The average depth of the Danube is around 20-25 meters (65-82 feet), while the Rhine’s average depth is around 2-3 meters (6.5-10 feet) 5. However, the Rhine is generally wider than the Danube. The width of the Rhine ranges from 200 meters (656 feet) to 1 kilometer (0.62 miles), while the width of the Danube ranges from 150 meters (492 feet) to 800 meters (2,625 feet) 5.

A number of countries had armoured gunboats active on the Danube up to the 2nd World War, I could only find reference to a couple of Germany river monitors on the Rhine in the 1870’s. So despite having greater space to manoeuvre I would guess the Rhine is too shallow for anything bigger than a corvette. The wider stretches of the river do offer the prospect of a river naval battle, which might be quiet fun. The Theresa had 14 oars each side, she looks like a two decker ocean going frigate with oars in the illustration. Think the gunboat model with large guns forward and aft and carronades port and starboard would be more practical for the Danube.

Goldstar wrote:Gunboats and corvettes are for amateurs, go bonkers and build a Danube frigate.  SMS Theresia , laid down 1768 , two masts, 14 oar, 38 gun Frigate.  Pride of the Danube flotilla despite constantly grounding in the rivers shallows.

It sounds a fascinating if slightly bonkers ship.  Not sure where it would fit in, in Glory terms.  Would have to be a research project?  Up-scaling galley technology to frigate size?  Though whether a Glory-style frigate with oars could carry that much firepower?  The Chinese can add paddle wheels to ships but that halves the number of cannon it can carry, I wonder if (effectively) adding oars to a frigate would have the same effect?

Of course, having typed that I came across this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turuma

Mind you, I do want one in one of my navies

Jason2 wrote:

Goldstar wrote:Gunboats and corvettes are for amateurs, go bonkers and build a Danube frigate.  SMS Theresia , laid down 1768 , two masts, 14 oar, 38 gun Frigate.  Pride of the Danube flotilla despite constantly grounding in the rivers shallows.

Of course, having typed that I came across this  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turuma

Interesting find, shame the wiki says it was surpassed by gunboats. Would be fun to see some sailing as you say though

Marshal Bombast wrote:

Jason2 wrote:

Goldstar wrote:Gunboats and corvettes are for amateurs, go bonkers and build a Danube frigate.  SMS Theresia , laid down 1768 , two masts, 14 oar, 38 gun Frigate.  Pride of the Danube flotilla despite constantly grounding in the rivers shallows.

Of course, having typed that I came across this  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turuma

Interesting find, shame the wiki says it was surpassed by gunboats.  Would be fun to see some sailing as you say though

These Swedish turuma and their Russian opposite numbers seem to be a small Galleass not unlike the Adventure Galley commanded by Captain Kidd. Basically sailing ships fitted with large oars (known as sweeps) which would allow a ship to move under oar when no wind or manover into and out of harbour etc when wind in the wrong direction. Plus on top of this they seem to have had a pretty shallow draft (flat bottom?) to allow them to operate in the shallow inshore waters of the Finnish Coast and Gulf of Bohemia.

In theory they should be able to outgun Galleys and in very calm conditions common to the very sheltered Baltic outmanover and rake becalmed sailing ships as well as being able to act in shallow coastal waters were a deep draught sailing ship can not go.

In practice like many designs trying to tick lots of box's at once the combination of heavy guns with a wide, shallow draft made them poor sailors which under oar had hardly any speed advantage over of ship being towed by ships boats. Attacking even a becalmed sailing ship at half a knott would probably give becalmed ship time to either use its ships boats or a spring on its anchor to turn its broadside to face the attack. While under oars a galley could avoid the Turuma broadside.

Think giving Sweeps to frigates does have its advantages if your Navy is operating in areas either lacking in wind or were the wind tends to only blow one way for months at a time and you want to get into or out of harbour etc against the wind. Thinking Red Sea, Persian Gulf etc but giving it a shallow draft so it can operate in very shallow water and buggering up its sailing quality and making it a sod to row is just two much!

As the Turuma class are basically fairly large sailing ships with some oars rather than say a oared gun boat or galley with sails in case of some wind blowing the right way on rivers even like the Rhine or Danube they would seem to be a grounding waiting to happen with limited opportunity to use their broadside. Note that the Russians converted many of theirs to floating batteries (Cavalry Galleys in Glori terms?) only a few years after they were built.

So if Austrians or other river powers build a 38 gun river frigate I think you leave it tied up too the Quay as a floating HQ then if Ottomans heading up river you move very slowly out into the river under oar and block it. If you run aground pointing the right way this does not matter as it makes you harder to sink.

Other alternative is wait for the French or someone else to plant their siege camp and position their guns ready for a siege of a river port city then slowly move your ship into position to bombard their camp. May take besiegers a month to re-position artillery to get rid of this threat.

Nothing you can not do with a squadron of gunboats or a Cavalry Galley pulled by a galley/tug. But surely that lacks the style and good looks of the SMS Theresia.

Might be wrong,

but I think Sweden developed Turuma class, for their archipelago ships, to counter Russian Galleys and their use in "brown water operations" along the coast of Finland.

I fear such ships would probably silt in the shallow waters of rivers?