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Agema Publications

A forum for the disscussion of the Play by Mail games from Agema Publications


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Stuart Bailey
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    G7 - France vs. England

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    G7 - France vs. England - Page 37 Empty Re: G7 - France vs. England

    Post by Guest Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:53 pm

    Stuart

    1) I am new in post as France and so news of the Dutch army on the move was actually news to me...there are other issues that I cannot talk about yet as it would give too much away

    2) The blockade of Rotterdam is actually a reaction against the Dutch attack last month on Tortuga-a French island

    3) HE WAS NOT A JACOBITE!!!! They were FRENCH naval ships, in the pay of FRANCE and part of the FRENCH Navy!!!!! In fact I was about to order their officers to investigate the destruction of the spanish trade mission...so its an attack on France, which given the spanish player was talking peace in the letter I got this turn and I was pulling out all the stops to find a solution that would address his concerns so he didn't need to declare war is perhaps a tad annoying

    Frankly I am coming to the opinion that G7 is the Glory version of the Dalek Asylum...its where players insane tendencies gather...maybe I'll join in and behave in such a manner that will makes others look back to the 'good old days' when Louis ran France...
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    Post by Stuart Bailey Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:15 pm

    Deacon wrote:
    If he is/was a jacobite privateer, that's news to me.

    The plot gets thicker! Rene Duguay was one of the elder James Stuarts main backers cutting a swath through the English Merchant Marine. Even raiding into the Thames and being chased to Sweden under Jacobite colours.

    However, if he is not a Jacobite I assume he was probably in French Service once again?............oh well glad that cleared up.......Spain attempted to hit the Jacobites for burning its trade mission and actually hit Bourbon Ships instead.

    Oh well simple solution to the problem...........France now has a prefectly valid reason to declare war on Spain and give Charles Hapsburg a damn good thrashing !!!!! Or Charles can claim the French Navy harbour pirates and Arsonists of Spanish Trade Missions.

    All we need now is to dedge a bit of Duguay out of Dublin Bay and we can have the "War of Deguay's Ear"
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    Post by Guest Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:53 pm

    Stuart Bailey wrote:Its a lie no one ever called King Louis a bit of a bounder.........power mad egomanic, the popish anti-christ and a tyrannt yes......bit of a bounder no.

    Really Stuart, I must have missed that, but then my enemies have always been gracious in their compliments!

    Having read some of the comments and received a copy of the newspaper from a kind soul, I may be able to clarify one or two things which those closer to the action may not have realised.

    Firstly, I don't think there is any real doubt that RJC is dead. The duel was conducted in accordance with the rules of honour, with witnesses on both sides. The selection of Reading is not in itself suspicious as you could hardly expect the duel to take place in London. Reading is mid-way between Bristol and London, and having once been loyal to King James, then retaken by Williamites, if anything the population of the town could be expected to keep their heads down and stay neutral. Marlborough had clearly been hit by a bullet whereas the shot he fired at Norfolk missed. He was taken to an inn which presumably was where the nearest doctor could be found to treat him. The doctor would have pronounced him dead. Then we have the fire. I agree with Deacon that there is something slightly unusual with this. However, not when linked to the attempt to free prisoners from the gaol. We all know how the activities of spies don't always work out how they are expected to. I suggest that what really happened was a spy had been given orders to kill Scottish prisoners in the gaol by burning it down. However, instead of just burning the gaol down, he started a fire next to it which set the inn alight first. RJC was just unlucky in that his corpse was in the inn at the time. Another alternative explanation would be that it was a supporter of RJC who cremated him to prevent the body falling into the hands of his enemies. Remember the Pope had declared him an 'anathema', unfit for Christian burial. It could be viewed as an act of kindness to destroy the body in this way. Overall I don't think it can be seriously doubted that RJC is dead.

    When I first read of this I will admit to a certain amount of satisfaction. A character who abandoned his morals so easily, betrayed everyone he dealt with, was literally sent to hell. And it was done by a gentleman of honour, who just happens to be a Catholic. It is reminiscent of a certain celebration in the Wizard of Oz. Seriously, though, I have enjoyed the antics of RJC even though they have been frustrating. Watching him twist and turn as he tried to justify more and more ridiculous stances to please his allies must have finally been to much for him. I hope the player of RJC will join another game at some point and I wish him well.

    Other Jacobite Developments
    In the excitement people seem to have missed what has happened elsewhere. It is unclear if Norfolk has the full backing of Parliament, but he does command the loyalty of both Protestants and Catholics and appears to be following the published wishes of King James. It is possible that the Duke of Norfolk is an agent controlled by King James, but from comments here this seems unlikely. Consequently, we have to make a working assumption that England has a new player. If this had been simply the GM adding colour (evidenced by his choice of Reading for the duel?), then the account carries an unusual amount of detail. New players are not always announced in the newspaper, and as RJC is dead perhaps an announcement was thought somewhat superfluous. As things stand, England has declared for King James.
    Scotland, in a rather muddled series of events, has also declared for King James.
    Ireland has previously declared for King James.
    The Pope has made a direct and unequivocal statement that King James is the only King of England, Ireland and Scotland.

    This all seems to have come as a surprise to you, Deacon, but if you recall I have been consistently arguing that this was the most likely outcome. I could not have predicted precisely how it would be achieved, but who cares? The important point is that those who act dishonourably can escape for a while, but eventually they will come unstuck. Not simply a moral judgement which I agree with, but it is what is stated in the rules.

    And all these developments have some interesting consequences.

    What is William fighting for now E/I/S are all under the control of KJ ? I could see the point in fighting whilst his supporters were at least pretending to have power, but now the peoples of E/I/S have rejected William and accepted KJ, perhaps he should decide whether he has any kind of strategy going forward. There was (for those who see the point of such things) an outside chance that at Jason's peace conference the Hapsburgs could have demanded William as King and Jason accept. However, such a demand would look extremely foolish given that events have now overtaken the diplomats. Waiting on events could have been part of Jason's inexplicable plan, though it would have been a very brave player to have gambled so much on the resolution of such complex events. Even though I predicted the outcome, I expected it to take far longer given the stubborn attitude of the players concerned.

    The Hapsburg Problem
    This is now the most fascinating part of the game, and far easier for me to analyse dispassionately now I am not involved. So many possibilities have been generated and quite probably by accident. I will not dwell for long on each and I’m sure that some players have realised how some of these lines will play out.

    The Dutch army has crossed over Flanders into Northern France. This is a clear breach of the Treaty of Ghent. Spain is required by that Treaty to declare war on UDP and force the removal of those troops. Should Spain refuse to do so then the Treaty requires Spain to hand over Cuba to France. If nothing else this strengthens France’s hand at the negotiating table. Spain had previously affirmed the ToG with Jason, so to avoid yet another discussion on the validity of treaties, (cue squeals from various quarters), Spain has a simple choice to make. And none of the choices are pleasant.

    Then we have the more pressing issue of the attack on Dublin. This needs separating into 2. There is the question of the nationality of ships attacked (it must be said) in a most cowardly way. And there is the question of the nationality of the civilians killed and the sovereignty of Dublin.

    As the player who created the Dunkirkers, I will confirm the following. Those few corvettes which did so much damage to English (not Spanish) shipping were crewed by French Jacobite exiles who took refuge with King James following his defeat in Ireland in the 1690s. They sailed under a dual obligation to both France and the Jacobite cause. This ensured that when the Jacobite player became inactive, France would not have units stranded and exposed. Up until the time I left, these ships only attacked English shipping, and only during a period when France and England were officially at war. They sailed only in the Channel. There was a 2nd Jacobite fleet which supported them (the Jacobite Wolf Fleet), which did briefly journey to the Mediterrean to protect French shipping against attack, but this fleet also was under strict orders only to attack English ships. They never disobeyed their orders and only took English prizes. René Dougay-Trouin was a Contre-Amiral in the French Navy, not a privateer and certainly not a pirate. Spain knew all this as it was repeatedly made clear to him by letter and somewhere I’m fairly sure I will be able to dig out a reply by him where he accepts this. There were instances of ships flying the Jacobite flag attacking Spanish vessels over a year ago, but these were found to be pirates flying false colours. Spain accepted that Dougay-Trouin could not be in several places at once. So the attack on the Dunkirkers was clearly an act of spite by Spain against France. It was unannounced and unprovoked. There is no evidence that the Spanish trade mission was burned down by Jacobites acting on the orders of King James, and there is certainly no connection between that incident and the discipline of the Dunkirkers. Whether by design or accident Spain has committed an act of war on France.

    The attack happened in Dublin. Ireland declared for King James some months ago so Spain has also committed an act of war against King James. This happened (most likely by accident) the very month that His Holiness the Pope declared King James as the true King of England, Ireland and Scotland. Such a Papal declaration may not mean much to the rabid anti-Catholic element which obsesses some characters, but it does mean a great deal to Catholics. It means even more to a Cardinal. For a Cardinal to directly disobey the Pope in this way demands sanction. I expect King James to ask His Holiness to take the appropriate action by stripping him of his authority. Put very simply, if King Charles Hapsburg of Spain is forcing the Cardinal to chose between serving him and serving God, the Cardinal is obliged to chose God, for he was created a ‘priest forever, like Melchizedek of old.’ It will be interesting to see which choice the Cardinal makes personally, but if he renounces his priesthood, then Spain will rapidly become ungovernable as the religious orders will turn on him. Already the Hapsburg family has shown an extraordinary degree of contempt for the Church, yet the effects have not been felt as they should according to history and the rules of the game.

    Spain is also in trouble in another important matter. Since the start of the game Spain has largely stood above the fray, choosing to work constructively with other players including France. Even after Austria broke its treaty with France and attacked, Spain sought to act as a neutral intermediary. She was determined, as France was, to keep her word and we maintained regular communication, advising each other of treaties we had signed so as to avoid conflict between us. It was no doubt surprising to some that Spain did not declare war on France and back Austria. It was not surprising to me because of 5 years of understanding and trust built up between France and Spain. The Treaty of Ghent was much more in the interests of Spain than France, but more than that we trusted each other: our word meant something. Yes, there were times when that relationship was strained, especially when Spain refused to hand over Blackbeard to face French justice and employed him, conveniently forgetting his murder of a Spanish archbishop! But overall Spain has been a voice for peace and reasoned argument across Europe. No doubt he continued in that vein whilst negotiating with Jason.

    That now appears to have changed. If Spain has followed Austria down the path of dishonour, breaking treaties and attacking without a declaration of war, then Jason can expect a Spanish army to invade southern France probably heading for Toulouse which is now in Austrian hands. Logically such a move is consistent with Austria’s objective of grabbing as much of France as he can before the peace talks begin. It gives me absolutely no pleasure to suggest that possibility for it means that the norm in G7 is for players to break their word. If players have no honour the game simply doesn’t work. The rules recognise that as do the majority of players. Unfortunately such tactics will spread to other games, so rule changes will need to happen to restore playability.

    There is nothing clever in deliberately breaking the rules of the game and claiming victory by doing so. There is nothing clever in ganging up on individual players to drive them out of the game. And if such behaviour is rewarded then there really is no point in the game at all.

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    Post by Deacon Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:54 pm

    Stuart Bailey wrote:
    Deacon wrote:
    If he is/was a jacobite privateer, that's news to me.

    The plot gets thicker! Rene Duguay was one of the elder James Stuarts main backers cutting a swath through the English Merchant Marine. Even raiding into the Thames and being chased to Sweden under Jacobite colours.

    However, if he is not a Jacobite I assume he was probably in French Service once again?............oh well glad that cleared up.......Spain attempted to hit the Jacobites for burning its trade mission and actually hit Bourbon Ships instead.

    Oh well simple solution to the problem...........France now has a prefectly valid reason to declare war on Spain and give Charles Hapsburg a damn good thrashing !!!!! Or Charles can claim the French Navy harbour pirates and Arsonists of Spanish Trade Missions.

    All we need now is to dedge a bit of Duguay out of Dublin Bay and we can have the "War of Deguay's Ear"

    Why in the world would you presume jacobites would burn the spanish trade mission? Save the insane propaganda for the papers if you don't mind.
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    Post by Guest Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:04 pm

    [quote="Deacon"][quote="Stuart Bailey"]
    Deacon wrote:



    Why in the world would you presume jacobites would burn the spanish trade mission? Save the insane propaganda for the papers if you don't mind.

    That's what got me. it was clearly a bit of stirring and not to be taken seriously...

    ...which brings me back to my earlier claim, there is something about G7 that encourages insanity...


    ...and hey why should I be the only sane one...all bets are off Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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    Post by Guest Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:19 pm

    ...on the other hand, just read Louis' post and honestly I have had enough of trying to play France...so sorry folks had enough, this is not fun, its a bloody nightmare, I will email Richard and say I am resigning from G7.
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    Post by Deacon Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:26 pm


    Damn. Please reconsider.
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    Post by Guest Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:36 pm

    Sorry Deacon, I hate to leave you in the lurch but honestly G7 is not fun for me and so why should I bother? I am no longer surprised Louis got like he did...mind you, at least he didn't have another Louis making comments on his actions at the same time...
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    Post by Guest Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:53 pm

    Sorry to see you go, Jason. You played with honour as I did. A shame others do not. Sad

    I may not have had another Louis making comments on my actions, but there were plenty of others who did, including yourself. I trust that those comments, whilst at times no doubt irritating, did not influence your decision to quit any more than forum comments did for me.

    All the best ...

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    Post by Guest Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:04 pm

    At times I could have done without you questioning what I was doing-the real problem there was Louis, there was a bloody good reason for my actions that you found "inexplicable" and yet if I reveal them now they will give an unfair advantage to those in the game...but no you didn't cause me to leave.

    (But I think it is interesting that both me and Deacon when outsiders tended not to criticize your actions ingame and we were the ones who took over from you as it were).

    Its simply the position as it is seems too much for one person to run and honestly, its impossible to try and cope with a war effectively on 3 fronts, and now number 4, as a player coming into a game. I've learnt my lesson Wink
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    Post by Deacon Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:35 pm

    I think without a French player this game is going to get boring fast.

    I am going to see my position through until I either fail or succeed at taking England, but I'm less inclined to stay in longer term now.
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    Post by The Hessian Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:37 pm

    Very Happy Ah well you will be Billy No Mates in the game(well except for your ether friend RKLOF) for a while. Shame as Jason was the first decent looking/acting Frenchie with a possible chance of getting genuine diplomacy moving.
    heres to hoping another realistic genuine player comes to take it on and maybe he will be sensible and stay away from the forum. pirat
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    Post by Deacon Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:46 pm

    The Hessian wrote: Very Happy Ah well you will be Billy No Mates in the game(well except for your ether friend RKLOF) for a while. Shame as Jason was the first decent looking/acting Frenchie with a possible chance of getting genuine diplomacy moving.
    heres to hoping another realistic genuine player comes to take it on and maybe he will be sensible and stay away from the forum. pirat

    I don't mind the no mates, but without a france, it's just a war game against richard. boring I think.
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    Post by Regor Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:32 am

    Jason, sorry to receive that news and will miss your efforts to bring sanity to the mad, mad, bad game. Watching France for the entirety of the game I can say that the last couple of pages here on the forum have opened my eyes. I have a lot of sympathy for those who want to play in an honourable way and those who take on positions part way through the game.

    And I don't think you were Billy No-Mates for what weight that carries. As the French say, Au revoir bon chance!
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    Post by Stuart Bailey Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:23 pm

    Deacon wrote:
    The Hessian wrote: Very Happy Ah well you will be Billy No Mates in the game(well except for your ether friend RKLOF) for a while. Shame as Jason was the first decent looking/acting Frenchie with a possible chance of getting genuine diplomacy moving.
    heres to hoping another realistic genuine player comes to take it on and maybe he will be sensible and stay away from the forum. pirat

    I don't mind the no mates, but without a france, it's just a war game against richard. boring I think.

    You can hardly call Deacon's character in G7 "Billy No Mates" since he King James not King Billy and is now head of one of the largest factions in the game since the Jacobites now seem to include:

    A) The King
    B) His Prime Minister - Ref the new PM I am fairly sure that dauls were not legal in 1706 so he is probably a Murdering Catholic Turncoat (nice change from the last one)
    C) The head of the HWIC who is a Stuart bye blow

    I feel sorry for "Billy no mates" Sir C M and spike. A true English Patriot and his bull dog well and truely stitched up and thrown in the Tower by schemeing nobles and dodgy priests. Since Diplomacy is not allowed on the forum I assume the same applies to making death threats against members of the Howard family?
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    Post by Guest Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:59 pm

    Stuart Bailey wrote:I am fairly sure that duels were not legal in 1706

    Yes they were! In England, duelling was briefly banned by the Parliamentarians during the Civil War, but it was permitted again after the Restoration. Kings usually officially disapproved of duelling, but tended to encourage their champions who were defending their honour. It was a very useful way to control ambition or get rid of undesirables. Duelling was not officially made illegal until the 1850s in England by which time it had ceased to be primarily an activity of the nobility and was particularly popular among doctors and lawyers.

    It is also permitted in the rules of LGDR and held as being a way for gentlemen to settle disputes. Consequently I assume it is permitted across all countries within the rules of the game. It might come as a surprise to learn that Louis XIV discouraged duelling among his officers but for once it proved impossible to enforce any kind of official ban because of feudal codes of nobility. Trial by Combat in France was allowed by law, sanctioned in the King's name, when a standard jury trial would have been unable to reach a verdict. As nobles exercised their authority on behalf of the king, there was nothing to stop them sanctioning their own duels. The English legal position on Trial by Combat is very complicated, but irrelevant given duelling itself was not illegal.

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    Post by Stuart Bailey Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:18 pm

    After checking my copy of "The Duel in European History" by V G Kiernan (Oxford University Press) I can confirm that dauling is illegal in England.

    After James I (who hated violence along with Witches and Tobacco) attorney general confirmed that under the common law to kill a man in a daul was murder, but there was no bar to sending a challenge or acting as a second James produced his "Proclamation against private Challenges and Combats." Oddly James I wanted matters of "honour" referred to the court of the Earl Marshal.

    Charles I, Parliament and Charles II all in theory tightened up on the original anti dauling legislation seconds could be charged with man slaughter. John Law the later French Financer for instance fled to France after fatally wounding one Edward Wilson "with a sword made of Iron and Steel of the value of five shillings".

    However, it has to be admitted that most daulists got off or were only convicted of lesser crimes while Charles II esp but other Monarch's as well would often pardon daulists. Esp if the daulist had friends/influence at court.

    So its possible that the Duke of Norfolk could recieve a Royal Pardon. Mind you a true Catholic like James III (and Norfolk) claim to be should really not ignore decrees from the Pope and the council of Trent against dauling and rulers who neglect to suppress it. In the words of Clement VII Norfolk is now "perpetua infamia."

    As well as being dead meat for his crimes of perjery, planting false evidence and fitting up a English Hero & his dog!

    Or if what what he claims is true he has just crossed the Spanish Secret Service. Really dont give much for his chances either way.
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    Post by Deacon Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:26 pm


    this presumes you choose to characterize these events as a duel, rather than an act of war, or the execution of an outlaw.

    And given the lack of a body, how can you prove the events took place anyway?

    Heck, since you want to engage in crazy speculation, my guess is that austrian agents burned the spanish trade missions trying to stir them up. It makes more sense than other speculations.
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    Post by Guest Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:57 pm

    Stuart, does your source explain why, if duelling was already illegal, Parliament passed a law making it illegal in the 1850s? Surely it is only necessary to prohibit something if it was legal before the prohibition? Or to remove loopholes in the law which prevented successful prosecutions?

    As you seem to recognise, if the King pardons duellists then even if there are other charges which could be brought against the participants (e.g. manslaughter) the law by the King's pleasure was ignored. It is in the nature of a duel that if one party dies then the other may surely claim he was obliged to fire to preserve his own life, and it is never a criminal offence to act in self defence. No jury of the time would convict a gentlemen, so no crime. Remember under English criminal law we are all innocent until proven guilty.

    I find it rather odd that you object to the principle of two gentlemen fighting it out who both have weapons, whereas you made excuses when RJC stabbed an unarmed King James.

    Deacon, I don't think there is any doubt that RJC and the Duke of Norfolk fought a duel, nor that RJC died as a result of it. I obviously don't have the kind of suspicious mind you do, but unless I'm missing something, isn't the Duke of Norfolk's arrival positive for King James? Don't you have enough enemies to worry about without inventing imaginary ones? Perhaps Jason was right and you're catching the Game 7 insanity bug? If you don't work with the Duke of Norfolk when he seems like such an obliging fellow, then how do you ever expect to be able to rule a country which has more than its fair share of nutcases?
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    Post by Deacon Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:19 pm

    The Real Louis of France wrote:


    Deacon, I don't think there is any doubt that RJC and the Duke of Norfolk fought a duel, nor that RJC died as a result of it. I obviously don't have the kind of suspicious mind you do, but unless I'm missing something, isn't the Duke of Norfolk's arrival positive for King James? Don't you have enough enemies to worry about without inventing imaginary ones? Perhaps Jason was right and you're catching the Game 7 insanity bug? If you don't work with the Duke of Norfolk when he seems like such an obliging fellow, then how do you ever expect to be able to rule a country which has more than its fair share of nutcases?


    You're misunderstanding. I don't necessarily have to accept that the events that took place were a duel even if some parties characterize it so.

    I issued a warrant for the capture or execution of the notorious regicide John Churchill, so I can choose to characterize the Duke of Norfolk's actions as an attempt to arrest the miscreant. I can choose to characterize it as an act of war against a rebel against the crown. If it is any of these things then no pardon is necessary as no law has been broken.

    Perhaps the duke of norfolk 'called' it a duel to bring the worm out of hiding, but that doesn't mean it was one. After all, Churchill was hardly a gentleman worthy of crossing pistols with the Duke of Norfolk. How could he duel a man so far beneath him?

    So the speculation that the Duke of Norfolk is "in trouble" for purportedly shooting a rebel, a dog, and an enemy of the state seems wishful thinking on some people's part.
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    Post by Guest Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:59 pm

    You don't have to accept anything, but as I analysed the newspaper it seems clear to me. There are some people who are still convinced that Lord Lucan is alive, but personally I think the odds are against it. Admittedly, he just disappeared so was not seen to be shot or subsequently burnt up. But you believe what you want to - I'm sure you know better than I do.

    I don't think Norfolk is in any kind of trouble. You and I probably both share similar opinions of RJC (the character), but we have to accept that he was still a member of the House of Lords and a Duke, and as such retained the right to duel with a social equal. Norfolk was his social equal, well actually his superior in terms of precedence. Not every noble was a shining paragon of virtue.

    Would King James have issued the challenge himself - no, because as you have stated, you considered him beneath contempt. Norfolk acted with a certain amount of chivalry by at least giving RJC a sporting chance. He seems to have followed your request to make RJC pay for his actions, and achieved the same objective in the end which you had. And he probably chose the quickest way to do it. Surely RJC would have been well protected against any would-be assassins? I don't see what the problem is. If I had posted a reward for Blackbeard, dead or alive, and someone else killed him, I'd be grateful to him and pay him his reward. I wouldn't expect to see Blackbeard's Ghost and risk insulting the person who had done me a favour. I'm trying very hard to understand your point of view, but at the moment I just don't see it.
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    G7 - France vs. England - Page 37 Empty Re: G7 - France vs. England

    Post by Deacon Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:09 am


    Really, pay attention to the thread.

    >>"So its possible that the Duke of Norfolk could recieve a Royal Pardon."

    To receive a pardon would be to imply he needed one. I see no reason to accept the premise that he has done anything that requires one.
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    G7 - France vs. England - Page 37 Empty Re: G7 - France vs. England

    Post by Deacon Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:21 am

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    G7 - France vs. England - Page 37 Empty Re: G7 - France vs. England

    Post by Guest Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:25 am

    The Real Louis of France wrote:
    I don't think Norfolk is in any kind of trouble.

    That applies irrespective of whether you call it a duel or not Smile

    So why get hung up about the nature of the charges you would have preferred to see RJC prosecuted under? Just accept he is dead unless you can prove he is alive and work with Norfolk against your enemies.
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    G7 - France vs. England - Page 37 Empty Re: G7 - France vs. England

    Post by J Flower Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:42 am

    If the RJC knew that Norfolk was a better duellist than him, then he would have known in his heart of hearts that Norfolk was bound to win, so by taking up the challenge he was actually commiting suicide. No doubt the suicide note was burnt in the subsequent fire. Then there is no need for Royal pardons of further investigations.

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    G7 - France vs. England - Page 37 Empty Re: G7 - France vs. England

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