G7 - France vs. England

by Deacon Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:48 pm

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Post n°876

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Deacon Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:48 pm

Sorry you think it's cynical. I think it's just historically accurate.

Positions were bought in many places and bribes and other forms of graft were the acceptable way of recouping that investment.

I don't think they thought of it as we do, as something evil. Just "how things got done."

Honour would certainly dictate what they would and wouldn't take a bribe over, but my experience is that when trying to move an NPC in game, the best way to do it is to offer him money.

Mind you, I've never asked any to do anything crazy either. I am sure there is a limit to bribery with most NPCs.

But to suggest that bribery then was considered as horrible as it is now, I think is just wrong.

by Stuart Bailey Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:16 pm

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Post n°877

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Stuart Bailey Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:16 pm

Perhaps I used the wrong word.

For bribe ............please read gift, bounty, reward, prize money, or small token of appreciation for the time and trouble the most honourable gentlemen have taken in considering the proposal before them.

And before anyone says that such tactics are not correct for the period I would point out that commissions were purchased and sold, the rank and file tended to be press ganged or recruited by bounty and loot and prize money motivated all ranks.

Basically if a player sends out a recruiting party and offers a bounty or lowers tax rates to try to improve his popular support its a technical bribe but is it dishonourable? According to Cato and the RKL is answer to this is yes but is it unhistoric? My answer would be No.

by J Flower Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:15 pm

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Post n°878

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by J Flower Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:15 pm

Maybe the word subsidy should be used instead of Bribe, afterall various Governments offered to help "fund " there allies war efforts, it is still a case of offering money for support of your cause just the terminology is differant.

I think honour (or at least what the other players think of you) is still a part of the game, the honour system is frustrating, indeed it has often been debated in this very forum. Still you cannot be a total Cad, as it will eventually catch up with you via the system.

There is a question of modern values not being total blended into those of 300 years ago, that is maybe something players in general can look into. It was a differant world with differant perspectives & values. It can only strengthen the game when we all look to emulate at least some of the finer points.

Cynical & brutal were unfortunatly parts of the 1700s as much as our own century, Slavery, Serfs, forced evictions, press gangs. It certainly wasn't all a bed of roses.

by Guest Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:20 pm

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Post n°879

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Guest Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:20 pm

J Flower wrote:There is a question of modern values not being total blended into those of 300 years ago, that is maybe something players in general can look into. It was a different world with different perspectives & values. It can only strengthen the game when we all look to emulate at least some of the finer points.
Cynical & brutal were unfortunately parts of the 1700s as much as our own century, Slavery, Serfs, forced evictions, press gangs. It certainly wasn't all a bed of roses.

I can certainly agree with that, and I am not suggesting that life in 1700 was what we would consider fair by modern standards. However, to suggest that officials were routinely dishonest, or even naïve in respect to the integrity required by their office seems wrong. I don’t have a detailed knowledge of the historic laws in other countries, but certainly in England if an official accepted a bribe he was deemed to have broken the law and was subject to a range of penalties.

Yes, monopolies were bought and sold as were commissions, though throughout the 1600s there were certainly concerns over the extent of this in England and it was one of the abuses which led to Parliamentary charges against Stuart courtiers. Monopolies (which some considered an evil in themselves) were used as a means of unofficial government debt whereby the noble would receive the tax revenue from a certain product in exchange for either cash or favours granted to the monarch. Prize money was paid not as a bribe, but as part of the generally understood terms of employment. I don’t think that kind of institutional (or officially sanctioned) corruption is what was meant in the context of the discussion about using bribery to get NPCs to do what you want.

And therein lies the difference. When it came to standards of personal morality, back in 1700 they were dominated by religion. Officials were obliged to work within the system, but that does not mean they automatically required bribes – quite the contrary. They believed in hell and took the Bible literally. And if you recall Psalm 14:

Lord, who shall be admitted to your tent
and dwell on your holy mountain?
He who walks without fault;
he who acts with justice
and speaks the truth from his heart;
he who does not slander with his tongue;
he who does no wrong to his brother,
who casts no slur on his neighbour,
who holds the godless in disdain,
but honours those who fear the Lord;
he who keeps his pledge, come way may;
who takes no interest on a loan
and accepts no bribes against the innocent.
Such a man will stand firm for ever.

The Psalm may represent an ideal, which as Stuart reminds us was shared by Cato who took a stand against corruption in the Roman world. Rulers knew that any state which condoned corruption ultimately failed.

In the context of the time I cannot consider such institutional corruption as being dishonourable. Undesirable, yes, but not dishonourable. Recruiting parties, again were standard practice, though often illegal. Subsidies to allies were also quite normal and seen not as bribes, but acts of charity, as was entertaining foreign princes. Lowering tax rates wouldn’t be considered as a bribe because the presumption was that tax (on the nobility) was only to be levied in exceptional circumstances, a temporary measure. It was expected that the peasants would pay tax anyway, if not to the state then to their local Lord for the privilege of having him live in his castle!

In all these cases there is a clear difference between these examples and making payments or other inducements to foreign officials to persuade them to favour your cause. That, so far as I know, was generally illegal if not treasonable against their own ruler. To accept what is clearly a bribe would therefore be dishonourable for both the one who offered and the one who accepted. It is a great shame if players are so weak they can only achieve their ends by using such means that their historical counterparts would have gone to great lengths to avoid.

by J Flower Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:32 pm

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Post n°880

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by J Flower Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:32 pm

Maybe the strength of relegious belief was a more important factor 300 years ago. I am not trying to say that modern day individuals have no great relegious strenghth of beleif, It is however possible that society as a whole 300 years ago took more interest in its relegious welfare, which had a much greater impact on life & lifestyles in the era.

by Guest Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:43 pm

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Post n°881

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Guest Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Precisely!

by Stuart Bailey Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:34 pm

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Post n°882

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Stuart Bailey Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:34 pm

Basically religion may have been more important to Western Europe in 1700 than it is today which means its more important to act in a "Godly" and "Honourable" manner but much of what we now consider the bench marks for "Godly" and "Honourable" comes from much later periods.

In our period Slavery is still a perfectly honourable trade, the "laws of War" to spare civilians were being put forward by Jursts such as Hugo de Grootijurists and seem to have had some influence in conflicts beteen Western European Nations but none in colonial wars or wars against the Turks and were often broken for example when Churchill ravaged Bavaria and the French ravaged the Palantine, Savoy and the UDP.

What was considered a socially acceptable "payment" as opposed to a bribe also seems to have been a lot wider.

In particular I liked the quote from Clive of India who declared hinself "astonished at my own moderation" ........when he returned to England in 1760 he had with him £230,000 in Dutch bills, £41,000 in HEIC bills, £30,000 in diamonds & £12,000 in other bills........not bad for a humble pen pusher turned Soldier.

If anyone has had success dealing with the Hungarian diet, the Imperial diet, The Janissary corp, The Polish Diet or the Papal Curia which does not involve spending money please share?.................And I dont include slaughtering the lot of them as a success even though that method has been attempted.

Would also be interested in who people consider the most difficult Agema NPC's to deal with? My vote is a tie between the Polish Diet and the Ottoman Janissary Corp.

by Guest Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:09 pm

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Post n°883

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Guest Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:09 pm

Stuart Bailey wrote:... much of what we now consider the bench marks for "Godly" and "Honourable" comes from much later periods.

This is where we disagree. It was absolutely the opposite! If you read the religious arguments made during the English Civil War, it is quite clear how these men viewed honour, religion and 'Godly' behaviour, and the standards that were expected of people. By 1700 standards may have relaxed slightly from 1660, but they are far closer to those standards than the more lax standards we have today.

Stuart makes a valid point that very often these standards only applied within your cultural/religious group, which is clearly in conflict with universal rights as we understand them today. And this is probably where there is confusion over honour. Upholding those standards was the mark of civilized men, so Europeans would deal with Europeans in a different way to how they would treat colonial natives or slaves. It was the same principle at the Ancient Greeks had when they referred to any non-Hellenic civilization as 'barbarian'. So it should be clear what was understood as honourable conduct for European gentlemen in 1700.

Clive of India did indeed consider himself moderate (did he consider Indians as equals, I doubt it?!), but he was impeached by Parliament and judged by his peers. That judgement was not in his favour! Interestingly both the British and French were ultimately successful in their colonial development because they were able to establish a reputation for dealing honestly with natives (when those natives themselves understood the need for honesty), particularly in matters of trade. The Spanish and Portuguese were less successful because they were never able to overcome the idea that the natives were any more than animals to be treated as such. Dishonesty encouraged dishonesty, which is the same result as if you seek to bribe officials at a matter of course.

Like Stuart, I would also be interested in who people consider the most difficult Agema NPC's to deal with, diplomacy not being my strong point!

by Guest Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:27 pm

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Post n°884

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Guest Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:27 pm

On Louis' final question, I tend to find the difficult ones are when they are major powers (France or Austria for example), the smaller NPCs are usually quite easy to get on with

by Regor Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:34 pm

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Post n°885

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Regor Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:34 pm

Just to recap: you want to try running a Eurograph Song Contest! Bloody Murder!

Basileus wrote:My plan to increase prestige in Scramble is to set up a band for the Eurograph (Eurovision) song contest, with tuba's and glockenspiels, dressed in lederhosen, and handle bar moustaches (slight clue as to my nation there). Some how I dont think that would help in game 7.
I am finding the best way to play the game is to think "Carry On" but I am not certain thats how the game is supposed but be played, but other players seem to be taking that approach, particular the player for France. Sorry, gone off topic.

as to TRKL and Stuart: the worst NPC's and players to get on with are those who historically disagreed with your own played position!

I dislike the Rowzi etc etc

by J Flower Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:36 am

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Post n°886

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by J Flower Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:36 am

Try being Kaiser with an inactice HRR, talk about stubborn.

by Ardagor Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:28 pm

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Post n°887

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Ardagor Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:28 pm

The situation in England is so messy and confusing that I am about to lose the plot, who is fighting against each other at the current time.

by Frank Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:45 pm

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Post n°888

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Frank Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:45 pm

Not only you. confused

As Marlborough is dead now does this mean that England is now inactive again? Suspect

by Regor Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:32 pm

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Post n°889

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Regor Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:32 pm

Doh!

noooo - We need England as a player position. And what is going on with Spain? And France (again).

Can anyone explain? Rolling Eyes

by Deacon Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:57 pm

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Post n°890

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Deacon Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:57 pm

Wow. I did not think things could get more twisted, but they sure did!

by Guest Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:41 pm

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Post n°891

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Guest Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:41 pm

I have just quickly glanced at my turn...and as France I would like to say...

WTF!!!!!!!!

Oh f***ing great, looks like all my attempts at peace with Spain are well and truly f***ed...

...and my cunning plans for a daring plan to retake occupied towns haven't really worked...

...and I have no idea what is going on in England...

I think I prefer the sanity of G2 and G8...

by Guest Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:57 pm

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Post n°892

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Guest Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:57 pm

Ok, my brain is officially hurting...are we now saying James is King of England and in charge of the country via Norfolk????

by Deacon Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:27 pm

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Post n°893

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Deacon Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:27 pm

Jason wrote:Ok, my brain is officially hurting...are we now saying James is King of England and in charge of the country via Norfolk????

That is if you believe that Churchill is really dead. A fire conveniently destroys the corpse? I'm dubious, but I guess we'll see how it plays out.

In any case, it seems the Jacobite cause is on the rise for now...

by Guest Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:14 pm

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Post n°894

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Guest Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:14 pm

Deacon wrote:

In any case, it seems the Jacobite cause is on the rise for now...

Lets hope so, cause your ally's one sure ain't....

I think the Emperor better have a word with that son of his...cause right now, he's in danger of finding himself wishing RKLF was still in charge...

by Deacon Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:04 pm

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Post n°895

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Deacon Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:04 pm

JC hasn't been on the thread for a while, so not sure if he's throwing in the towel, or trying yet another variant of the Kansas city shuffle. I'm still enjoying watching the train wreck unfold, even if I'm aboard!

But the Papal Bull combined with events in England do strengthen our hand considerably.

Of course, winning England and keeping it are two very different things...

by Stuart Bailey Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:56 pm

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Post n°896

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Stuart Bailey Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:56 pm

Jason wrote:

Deacon wrote:

In any case, it seems the Jacobite cause is on the rise for now...

Lets hope so, cause your ally's one sure ain't....

I think the Emperor better have a word with that son of his...cause right now, he's in danger of finding himself wishing RKLF was still in charge...

Have not seen this months issue but I think what the Emperor has been saying to his 2nd son for some time now is............ "Attack"

If the Emperor is rid of that bounder Churchill and his family is finally rallying to the Eagle Banners of the Royal House of Austria for a Hapsburg-Bourbon scrap with no nasty heretics involved I look forward to a proper war with due respect being shown on both sides.

As a final thought if all the Ferret Lovers Association are now on the Tour de France I assume that the French Army will be going home allowing the English to get on with their civil war in peace.

by count-de-monet Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:57 am

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Post n°897

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by count-de-monet Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:57 am

The Emperor should have called the Russian's hand - "give me your best shot Pete"...........the Russian military couldnt beat an egg at the moment Very Happy

I come from Reading......its a bit spooky reading about the Cross Keys pub in Gun Street. Someone is doing TOO much research !!

by Guest Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:47 am

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Post n°898

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Guest Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:47 am

I'll blame the Emperor then Wink

Though mildly 'wtf' given that I had a nice long letter from the Dutch this turn that was all about finding a peaceful solution to our differences...so to send a letter like that and at the same time launch a surprise attack...

...and some of you thought King Louis is a bit of a bounder...

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Jason wrote:

Deacon wrote:

In any case, it seems the Jacobite cause is on the rise for now...

Lets hope so, cause your ally's one sure ain't....

I think the Emperor better have a word with that son of his...cause right now, he's in danger of finding himself wishing RKLF was still in charge...

Have not seen this months issue but I think what the Emperor has been saying to his 2nd son for some time now is............ "Attack"

If the Emperor is rid of that bounder Churchill and his family is finally rallying to the Eagle Banners of the Royal House of Austria for a Hapsburg-Bourbon scrap with no nasty heretics involved I look forward to a proper war with due respect being shown on both sides.

As a final thought if all the Ferret Lovers Association are now on the Tour de France I assume that the French Army will be going home allowing the English to get on with their civil war in peace.

by Stuart Bailey Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:58 pm

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Post n°899

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Stuart Bailey Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:58 pm

Its a lie no one ever called King Louis a bit of a bounder.........power mad egomanic, the popish anti-christ and a tyrannt yes......bit of a bounder no.

Have now rec'd a copy of the June Glory du Roi.

Must say after all the fuss I am disappointed. The Dutch declared war on France months ago and have been reported for the last couple of issues as marching along muddy paths etc on route to France. If this is a surprise attack I really am worried about the state of the French Army Int System.

The French Navy is clearly aware that its at war with the Dutch since its now now running a blockade of the Maas. So how come no one told the Army?

As for the Spanish well for a moment on reading the comments from Jason I assumed the Royal Tercio's were on the march. But all that has actually happened is that Spain has got a bit annoyed by people burning its trade mission and has lashed out at the No1 suspect blowing a few Jacobite privateers out of the water.

Tough of Duguary Trouin if he was not involved but about normal for Madrid if its picked on. It got just as stroppy about the sack of Havanna and the Navaho pinching its cattle. At least this time we have not ended up with scalps all over the floor of the Cortez.

My own view (which could be wrong) is that DT while an infamous pirate was probably not guilty of arson. Also he was a fairly poor pirate chief.........Rule 1 the the Pirate Code should read "when your location is blown.........move!"

by Deacon Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:08 pm

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Post n°900

Re: G7 - France vs. England

by Deacon Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:08 pm

If he is/was a jacobite privateer, that's news to me.

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