G7 - The War of the English Succession & the breaking of the Pirate Brotherhood

For most weapons a single arsenal can produce as many as you want. For some they can only produce a fixed number, usually enough to equip a battalion. Weapons such as Breechloading rifle, Magazine Repeater rifle, Reservoir Rifle fall in this category.

So it will be expensive to equip an army with such weapons, and/or time consuming and they are advanced and fragile weapons in any case so things may go horribly wrong.

Ardagor wrote:For most weapons a single arsenal can produce as many as you want. For some they can only produce a fixed number, usually enough to equip a battalion. Weapons such as Breechloading rifle, Magazine Repeater rifle, Reservoir Rifle fall in this category.

So it will be expensive to equip an army with such weapons, and/or time consuming and they are advanced and fragile weapons in any case so things may go horribly wrong.

I must admit I have always been intrigued by the ideas of breechloaders and magazine repeaters.    Like you say, they must be fragile and easily could go wrong, but if/when they work, would they make much of a difference.

I have a vague memory of France in one game (G6?) actually getting breechloaders in service in large-ish amounts, can't remember if they every used them in battle...

Jason2 wrote:

Ardagor wrote:For most weapons a single arsenal can produce as many as you want. For some they can only produce a fixed number, usually enough to equip a battalion. Weapons such as Breechloading rifle, Magazine Repeater rifle, Reservoir Rifle fall in this category.

So it will be expensive to equip an army with such weapons, and/or time consuming and they are advanced and fragile weapons in any case so things may go horribly wrong.

I must admit I have always been intrigued by the ideas of breechloaders and magazine repeaters.    Like you say, they must be fragile and easily could go wrong, but if/when they work, would they make much of a difference.

I have a vague memory of France in one game (G6?) actually getting breechloaders in service in large-ish amounts, can't remember if they every used them in battle...

Thank you both for your input and I'm glad JFlower also found the discussion stimulating. It is still open for more comments/opinions so feel free to move the discussion on to related areas if they have triggered any other thoughts.

I'm happy enough that my current ministers/advisors are loyal, but yes if I asked them I may well get back a rather mixed response. One thing I have noticed (which may not be just relevant to England) is that if you have set ministers for functions and ask them the same question, the finance minister will complain that it is a waste of money, the police minister will complain that it is a threat to social stability, the foreign minister that it will damage relations with xyz nations, etc, so you end up with ministers favouring policies which will increase their own power. Only very rarely do they suggest ways to mitigate the damage (in their eyes) which could bring them round to supporting the change. I think there is a Yes Minister quote which seems to reflect the attitude of 'advisors': "all government policy is wrong, but frightfully well carried out."

Where I am at the moment is ...
On Q1 I will try training/assigning small numbers of administrators to help ministers and doctors to help hospitals. I have the recruits to spare so hopefully we will see if this makes things better.
On Q2 (clocktowers) the answer was staring me in the face, but you'll have to forgive me if I don't reveal it on the forum. I'll let you know when you write to me in game. I really am kicking myself over this one it was so obvious and I think I've worked out why a previous player built them in the particular towns they have appeared.
On Q4/5 I'm still mulling it over. Perhaps there are just to many variables to be sure about - how fast will trade recover to use up spare capacity? At least I have decided to scale back future building programs until I get more evidence that I am on the right lines.
On Q3 (arsenals/weapons in general) I am going to try and research the topic over the next few weeks. If I decide to keep any then unless I need them to produce numerically limited weapons as Ardagor has indicated, will keep one, but disband the rest. I seem to remember that fairly early in the game HWIC tried to sell air rifles (one of my characters even had one given to him, still on the lists somewhere, as an incentive to buy them). Perhaps what I really need is an "academy of wacky weapon ideas" and tell them to come up with something. Of course convincing my soldiers to use these inventions might be tricky. I would quite like to raise a balloon unit, but can't seem to find the entry. Must be worth a few honour points to have King James touring the country by balloon?

I don't recall a manned balloon unit, only kites, though I think there is a Chinese hot air balloon, unmanned and used for signalling.  

However, going purely from memory, I seem to recall (historically) a Spanish or Portuguese priest who had a go at some sort of hot air balloon sometime between 1700 and 1710, got a feeling it was called an "airship" but exact details escape me at the moment.  Am certain it was something he is supposed to have shown off to his king and it rose a few feet in the air.

Jason2 wrote:I don't recall a manned balloon unit, only kites, though I think there is a Chinese hot air balloon, unmanned and used for signalling.  

However, going purely from memory, I seem to recall (historically) a Spanish or Portuguese priest who had a go at some sort of hot air balloon sometime between 1700 and 1710, got a feeling it was called an "airship" but exact details escape me at the moment.  Am certain it was something he is supposed to have shown off to his king and it rose a few feet in the air.

Thanks Jason2, I was thinking of Montgolfier, but I am a century to early.

Not quite sure attaching King James to a kite and a team of horses to pull it underneath is a particularly elegant way to tour the country.

I do wonder, though ... it must be easier to invent a balloon than a submarine, yet the rules do contain an early submarine. After all, balloons simply need something light (silk?) and a heat source, whereas submarines require an air supply, a watertight pressurized container, and some kind of propulsion system, etc, so there is much more engineering in even a basic submarine than in a balloon. So why were submarines invented before balloons?

I can sense another Jacobite academy being built?

Spain would be happy to provide the silk needed for King James III kite or a hot air balloon if such a thing can be invented early C18 rather than late C18. Also happy to supply anything James III needs to build a Royal Submarine.

I am sure all scabble players will join be in confirming the huge benefits and really, really tiny risks linked to submarines & flying in Agema games.

Stuart, if vagabond James Stuart being near an exploding ship of fireworks looks suspect...King James dying in an accident involving a balloon made of Spanish-supplied silk...well you might as well be surrounded by a brass band and standing in front of a flashing neon sign saying "it was me"

Papa-I get your thinking though my take on it is a submarine is pushing the limits of technology in the early 18th C but it is also (effectively) a combination of existing technology.  The early subs (as you'll know) didn't dive that deep, making air/watertight containers was old technology, early subs didn't spend long under water so either just used up their air or had simple systems for more...it's more a case of making lots of different things work together.
The balloon is just pushing the boundaries a bit more, controlled heating systems to maintain flight and fuel for such systems, managing not only ascend but descend (in shallow-diving subs I guess you can in theory swim to the surface from a reasonable depth; you don't have to be that high up in the air before jumping out of a malfunctioning air balloon is almost certain death), also weight seems to have been an issue in early balloons more than early subs (I guess its easier to drown a heavy load than raise it into the air).

Mind you as Stuart points out, Scramble has shown flight and submarines are inventions Agema has great fun with...usually involving the loss of your brave test pilots/sailors!

The point is that in Scrabble all the airships which have crashed into Mountains, Trees, Buildings, Deserts etc have been French, Italian or Austrian.

While the Submarines which have had small technical problems (such as being unable to surface) have been German or Russian.

While James Stuart would have his built my the finest Jacobite brains in Cumbia - what could possibly go wrong:?:

Surely James Stuart could draw now on the finest minds of Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow, which are far superior to those of Cumbria...but then again, so is my cocker spaniel...

Hmmm ... not playing in Scrabble I obviously failed to see the real intention of Stuart's suggestion.

As a statement to impress the people I still think a balloon has possibilities - the advantage being that people could see the King which isn't really possible in a submarine. I do wonder if using the brains from Scotland (as well as England and Ireland) could boost my otherwise patchy record in technological development?

Also when using new and advanced weapons the soldiers using them should be at least excellent drilled and preferably academy trained (to use and care properly for their weapons and spot any signs of danger). The army would also probably benefit from having a mobile workshop available (fixing worn or damaged weapons).

Ardagor wrote:Also when using new and advanced weapons the soldiers using them should be at least excellent drilled and preferably academy trained (to use and care properly for their weapons and spot any signs of danger). The army would also probably benefit from having a mobile workshop available (fixing worn or damaged weapons).

Thanks Ardagor. Clearly this is a complicated topic, so I've started a new one devoted to the ideal musket.

I don't understand how soldiers can be better than excellently drilled - I thought there were only 3 drill levels: no drill at all, well drilled and excellently drilled. English troops have mastered the first of these; some have progressed to the second and in exceptional circumstances a few have managed the third, but if there is a 4th then I ought to try it.

Also, can a mobile workshop repair very complicated weapons that need an arsenal to construct or can they only repair basic muskets? Must admit I had considered raising a mobile workshop but never got round to it because in G7 England has tended to be repelling invasions so fighting on the defensive so could replace my existing muskets straight from army camps. There were a few offensive actions against colonies, but no real fighting pitched battles except 2nd Dumbarton.

Excellent drill is the highest level of course, I was just trying to say that any soldiers trying out advanced weapons should have excellent drill as a minimum. Giving less drilled troops fancy weapons is just asking for trouble.

I'd agree with Ardagor, the more specialised the firearm, the more important it is for the troops using them to be excellently drilled before they start using them in the field (hadn't thought of the added advantage of academy trained before but makes sense).  Using Kwantung as an example, have the repeating crossbow, able to get off 10 shots in 10 seconds...but make sure those using them are excellently drilled.

This is getting very complicated.  So if I can manage to invent all the necessary bits (lots of academies), then to use these advanced weapons I first have to train my recruits in even more academies for a year, then when they come out raise them into units, then drill them for a year to get to excellent?  That means it will take 2 years, 2 months to raise infantry.

The average life expectancy of an English soldier in G7 is somewhat under a year since I had to throw them into the field as soon as I could and do such things as drill imbetween campaigning seasons.

I can sort of see the need for specialist drill for the artillerymen, but weren't infantry of the period a mixture of the destitute, criminals and those with no choice?  Do they really need that amount of education and training simply to shoot back when they are shot at? If so I might go back to only raising Highlanders with claymores.

Think of it more as specialist units.  Not your basic "scum of the earth" but your Sharpe's 95th Rifle units...they are the ones who might need to go to an academy, come out as "well drilled" then form into specialist units with specialist weapons and then drilled to excellent.

Except that in the 1st episode of Sharpe wasn't the entire unit wiped out except for his platoon? And of those, they went through their training: a pickpocket, a drunkard, a poacher, etc. I suppose for really specialised units then it might be an advantage, but for line infantry just to use a musket?

Well, if we are talking the nonsense that was the abuse of a TV series...

 It's his troops who are hangovers from the 95th Rifles who do well, not the South Essex,,,the books are a bit more complex with better officers making sure their bits of the South Essex can fight.

Was the TV series really that bad? Anyway, I'll take your word for it if you've read the books which I haven't. Oddly the more factual something is, the better I can read it; when it comes to fiction I really struggle - just can't seem to concentrate on it and remember which characters are which.

Unlike the merc forces recruited from the "scum of the earth" as an alternative to jail.......the Royal Tercio's of Charles III of Spain like to think of themselves as the Kings most loyal subjects in arms and as Christian Gentlemen defending against the ungodly Turk and of the forces of French absolutism.

Many of Charles III officers and NCO's and graduates of military acadamies and even the rank and file should have had at least a basic education.

While the Nobility hog most of the commissions esp in the Heavy Cavalry and the Guards as is only right and proper it is no shame to be a gentleman ranker and the Artillery, Engineers and the Navy are happy to give commissions to non nobles.  But no Jews or Muslims apart from in the medical corp.

Would add that to date the enhanced educational background of Spanish forces has had zero influence in the game unless you think this may account for their possible superior ability to use the Pavia Sextant, read Improved signals & naval charts as well as normal maps and not get lost!

Papa Clement wrote:Was the TV series really that bad?  Anyway, I'll take your word for it if you've read the books which I haven't.  Oddly the more factual something is, the better I can read it; when it comes to fiction I really struggle - just can't seem to concentrate on it and remember which characters are which.

The TV series was terrible.  The early books made mistakes but the series was far worse...unfortunately it wasn't helped by the author then "modifying" later books to fit in with the TV version.  

If you look at the TV  series officers tend to be either "hate the lower ranks" or "drunks" (Wellington and Hogan are the only exceptions) while Sharpe himself (at least in the early books) isn't so bitter and a better soldier, unlike the series. 

The TV series goes with the "scum of the earth" stereotype...the books originally went with history

Stuart Bailey wrote:Unlike the merc forces recruited from the "scum of the earth" as an alternative to jail.......the Royal Tercio's of Charles III of Spain like to think of themselves as the Kings most loyal subjects in arms and as Christian Gentlemen defending against the ungodly Turk and of the forces of French absolutism.

Many of Charles III officers and NCO's and graduates of military acadamies and even the rank and file should have had at least a basic education.

While the Nobility hog most of the commissions esp in the Heavy Cavalry and the Guards as is only right and proper it is no shame to be a gentleman ranker and the Artillery, Engineers and the Navy are happy to give commissions to non nobles.  But no Jews or Muslims apart from in the medical corp.

Would add that to date the enhanced educational background of Spanish forces has had zero influence in the game unless you think this may account for their possible superior ability to use the Pavia Sextant, read Improved signals & naval charts as well as normal maps and not get lost!

Whilst I am happy to concede that Spanish armies are the best educated/trained in G7, why hasn't this influenced their performance?  Spain probably has more money flowing into her coffers than nearly every nation combined so can probably afford the luxury of long training periods (between even longer siestas).

The really odd thing is the relative disparity in the good performance of the Spanish army compared to the poor performance of the Spanish navy (those who are using the Pavia Sextant, improved signals and naval charts).  Navies really do need more professionally trained recruits both on board ship and on shore.  Yet time and again, un-trained and undrilled English ships (without fancy sextants and charts, relying merely on the signal "engage the enemy") have been able to defeat the Spanish.  I'm sure Stuart has been asking himself this question as I have.  So it could be that even if I had the resources to train everyone in the army along Spanish lines, equip them with the ideal musket and had perfect intelligence, I would still end up being slaughtered.  The one consolation is that for all their lack of education, at least English troops know how to obey orders, unlike Gerona who started off Spanish, then disobeyed the orders to stop fighting and joined the Dutch.  Is this a case of too much education or too little?

Jason2 wrote:

Papa Clement wrote:Was the TV series really that bad?  Anyway, I'll take your word for it if you've read the books which I haven't.  Oddly the more factual something is, the better I can read it; when it comes to fiction I really struggle - just can't seem to concentrate on it and remember which characters are which.

The TV series was terrible.  The early books made mistakes but the series was far worse...unfortunately it wasn't helped by the author then "modifying" later books to fit in with the TV version.  

If you look at the TV series officers tend to be either "hate the lower ranks" or "drunks" (Wellington and Hogan are the only exceptions) while Sharpe himself (at least in the early books) isn't so bitter and a better soldier, unlike the series. 

The TV series goes with the "scum of the earth" stereotype...the books originally went with history

I thought the TV series worked well enough in its own terms - better than some I've seen - fiction rather than fact, but I'll accept that the books may well have stuck more closely to history with more period detail and character development.

If you get the chance, read the books (and the early ones, before the TV series) and you'll get my meaning

Feb 1714 Gloire du Roi has shown up and for non players of G7 here are the highlights:

1) Villars and his deseased Armee des Flanders completed his march from the siege of Antwerp in the UDP back to his home base in France. This march across the Duchy of Flanders without the permission of local authorities having really upset the locals last month was not hit by any more major attacks but was shadowed all the way to the frontier by Spanish Cavalry patrols who just seemed relieved to see the back of the French without any reports of sickness being spread in Flanders by the French.

Why Villars decided to violate the territory of Flanders rather than return to France by the same route as he entered the UDP (he sailed) remains unclear. Dodgy orders? Attempt to flaut victory over UDP on territory of Hapsburgs? Or a calculated risk taken to speed up return of French Army to its base and avoid further losses due to sickness?

2) In Versailles Gabriel del Montosa Countess of Hainaulte envoy from Flanders (acting envoy for Spain & Austria) passed on gifts for the new Catholic heir to England and the Queen of England.....via English Embassy Staff since while Lord Godolphin is man enough to insult the fair Gabriel to the French he makes a point of avoiding the Countess in person.

The Countess also nicely complained to Louis XIV about Villars violation of Flanders territory and offered a diplomatic settlement. Sadly Louis XIV was not in a mood to be charmed even by the Flanders Rose and has ordered the Countess to leave his court along with many of the young ladies who were friends of Gabriel. He also had the Flanders Embassy searched by the Gardes ecossais a diplomatic insult to Flanders roughly equal to marching 70,000 troops across Flanders without permission.

3) Along with what he clearly views as an over-reation by Flanders based forces to the violation of its territory by the French Army the other reason for Louis XIV bad mood seems to be what may be a major scandel linked to the French Treasury. What were the Guards looking for in Gabriel Wardrobe??????!!!!!!! According to his Majesty Louis XIV his ex-Treasurer has fled France with several large chests on a ship reported as being bound for Spanish Trinidad.

While Trinidad is a very nice Island if you do not worry about yellow fever and the swamps one has to wonder about a get away across the Atlantic in mid winter and to a area which has 50% tax rate for anything you want to import from France.

Lord Godolphin has been asked to investigate the French Treasury using the skills he picked up as King Williams Lord Treasurer and a founder of the Bank of England. Conclusion will no doubt be EVERYTHING IS THE FAULT OF SPAIN but can this x4 turncoat come up with evidence to support conclusion.

4) In the UDP Prince John William Friso decided to celebrate exit of the French by lowing the rate of tax on all foreign merchants to 5% so if anyone needs to fence a lot of French bullion the Amsterdam or one of the other Dutch Exchanges are now looking a lot better bet than say Trinidad for instance.

Meanwhile various troops formerly in Dutch service seem to be making their way home now the war is over. With the Scots fencibles disbanding in Liverpool, The Duke of Norfolk and Admiral Benbow and other POWs taking ship for London and the Hapsburg Loan troops of Northern Command getting ready to march back to Flanders.

5) England mostly taken up with celebrations (or drowning sorrows?) for the birth of little Henry Charles Louis Stuart (Prince of Wales) the new Catholic Heir (if you do not count Martel's claim to be the legitimate son of Charles II) to the thrones of England, Scotland and Ireland.

As part of the celebrations the (Catholic) English Monarchy has reduced taxes on Nobles and Commons to 3% for one year only. But left taxes on the Protestant Church of England unchanged.

6) Charles XII of Sweden still in meetings with Ministers and Clergy

7) In Buda the local watch collected 5,000 muskets recently handed out as free samples by "Ottoman" merchants.....paying 20 talers reward for each musket. Meanwhile outside the city men on horseback and with bloodied swords tried to call out the "insurrecto" but since it is February and the Ottomans have not invaded no one seemed that interested in abandoning their winter fires. Perhaps later in year when its warmer?

In Rome the Flanders envoy protested about French troops invading Flanders while the English protested about some Flanders units still flying Jesuit flags. Quite why this bothered the Protestant English and why they protested to the Pope is a mystery. Has Ambassador Drummond forgot that King James III is now head of the Church of England?

9) Getting back to the theme of this thread...... Brigadier Coles and the 1st Sons of Liberty Dragoons Regiment (now loyal to the Czar.....honest Gov) have been charged with being heavy handed and picking on honest merchants like Mister Obadiah Smith late of the HWIC. Some worry that this means that the Russian Administration in the colonies has become "as incompetent as the Government in London". Alternative view is that the feud between the Sons of Liberty and the HWIC factions is starting to warm up again.

With latest Report on America's trade showing the Compagnie du Portobello (Spanish registered subsidary of the old HWIC) in 8th place are Blackbeards old Sons of Liberty faction getting worried about Martel and his cronies for some reason?

10) 3rd time lucky - after the Swedes sunk his first fleet, a storm sunk the 2nd fleet the Czar and his lackeys have decided to have a third go with over 100 new Russian ships being laid down in 1714. To date we have no news about were or what types are being built or the reactions of the Swedes or the Ottomans.

11) The Czar has also promised that in the event of another "Catholic Civil War" Russia will not be drawn into the conflict and has propsed that the Baltic States create a zone of Armed Neutrality.