Famine: Does it really add to the game?

I quite like the idea of famine, ok not famine as such, but I think it does help remind us that part of the game is developing and improving your nation. It encourages you to look at agricultural improvements, develop things like a fishing industry, enter in diplomacy with other nations to obtain extra grain.

Having said that I do agree with some of the concerns around it, especially early in a new game or when you just take over a position. I think it is partly grain has increased in importance over the years. When I first started playing the game, grains main purpose was (I think) just to offset famines but now we need it to move armies and navies, so a surplus is more important-if you want to do anything military (without incurring too great a sickness level) you need grain.

I have wondered if another approach, to help new players and make the start of the new games flow better, would be for a player to start with a small grain reserve, not large but say 1.5 times what you need to counter a harvest failure. So you could have enough to make sure your popuation didn't starve in the first year plus have some to move units, try and develop an initial batch of hardy grain, sell off if you want. Ok, an inprudent player could waste their grain on strange ventures and still have a famine situation but at least it would, in theory, give you a breathing space

Jason wrote:I quite like the idea of famine, ok not famine as such, but I think it does help remind us that part of the game is developing and improving your nation.  It encourages you to look at agricultural improvements, develop things like a fishing industry, enter in diplomacy with other nations to obtain extra grain.

Having said that I do agree with some of the concerns around it, especially early in a new game or when you just take over a position.  I think it is partly grain has increased in importance over the years.  When I first started playing the game, grains main purpose was (I think) just to offset famines but now we need it to move armies and navies, so a surplus is more important-if you want to do anything military (without incurring too great a sickness level) you need grain.

I have wondered if another approach, to help new players and make the start of the new games flow better, would be for a player to start with a small grain reserve, not large but say 1.5 times what you need to counter a harvest failure.  So you could have enough to make sure your popuation didn't starve in the first year plus have some to move units, try and develop an initial batch of hardy grain, sell off if you want.  Ok, an inprudent player could waste their grain on strange ventures and still have a famine situation but at least it would, in theory, give you a breathing space

I agree.

Having said that, please Deacon consider returning, we miss u!

On game 9, Saxony has half the population and had an EH of 2 when I put taxes back to normal.

When I want to suffer that much I just go to the office!

I want to see the new games Richard is cooking up, but if those don't appeal I will check back on game 9.

Speaking as the player who wrecked Saxony in G9.

I would confirm that Saxony just about survived the first poor harvest by a) culling wild animals b) buying fish & meat from the open market c) Gift of grain from Austria & d) Gift of cash from France which allowed conversion to potatoes and use of the replaced seed grain as food.

Sadly then got a 2nd poor harvest (in first three game years!) with 50% of harvest now potatoes! Which totally killed the position and forced me to drop out of game.

I was wondering if I dropped and a new player took over Saxony would be given a "fresh start" by Agema to make it playable but that seems not to be the case according to Deacon.

ome players may prefer this level of brutal realism and I dont want this to sound like sour grapes from a player knocked out of G9 early but its not much fun to crash like this & I dont think it benefits the game to lose positions due to a couple of really bad dice rolls early on in the game.

My suggestion would be to have:

a) Positions start with some grain stores..............use them to move troops/ships or as extra seed grain could be interesting problem early on.

b) On a normal harvest some areas.........ie Morea, Sicily, Poland, Prussia, American colonies produce a grain surplus due to their low population compared to farmed area. Which can be bought.

Think being a important grain producer might make the Polish positions more attractive to players and give them something to bargin with like English/Dutch/French Dredgers.

c) If some area's get a surplus on a normal harvest I also think some area's like the UDP, Venice & perhaps Mainland Spain should get a minus and have to import grain.

Historically the UDP controlled the Baltic Grain Trade (and people needing to buy went not to Riga etc but to the Amsterdam exchange) and gets the NPC Polish Grain for a price (assume long term contracts in place). While Venice was supplied from the Morea and Spain from Sicily. So in peace time not a problem but I think it could bring out in the game why the Dutch were so involved in the Baltic and why Venice was so protective of the Morea.

A bit like the importance of north African grain trade to the late west Roman Empire, which was probably still a super power until it lost North Africa.

Well, adding elements concerning grain in the game seems to be a request then.

Great thread Deacon,

Having taken over Rumelia in game 8 after 2 bad harvests and 350,000 dead from famine then getting another bad harvest in my first year and a stalled economy I have found it very hard to recover, If it wasn't for having made diplomatic contact with a number of established players who helped with suppling me with enough grain to store and plant to get a harvest I think it would be to hard. The game starts with existing treaties to be honoured but as far as a grain supply its as if we left our caves at the year 1700 and just learnt to start farming, Maybe as mentioned above the games starting position should include a portion of stored grain set aside for the second years planting. ( having never started a position from the start I am unsure as to what food stores you start with)

Thoughts on a percentage of seed grain for year 2 anyone.

Cheers,

One Grain.

one grain of grain wrote:Great thread Deacon,

Having taken over Rumelia in game 8 after 2 bad harvests and 350,000 dead from famine then getting another bad harvest in my first year and a stalled economy I have found it very hard to recover, If it wasn't for having made diplomatic contact with a number of established players who helped with suppling me with enough grain to store and plant to get a harvest I think it would be to hard. The game starts with existing treaties to be honoured but as far as a grain supply its as if we left our caves at the year 1700 and just learnt to start farming, Maybe as mentioned above the games starting position should include a portion of stored grain set aside for the second years planting. ( having never started a position from the start I am unsure as to what food stores you start with)

Thoughts on a percentage of seed grain for year 2 anyone.

Cheers,

One Grain.

This could be a great solution!

one grain of grain wrote:
( having never started a position from the start I am unsure as to what food stores you start with)

I've had three:

Blackbeard - grain isn't really an issue, unsurprisingly.
England - I didn't receive any starting grain, but I can remember having to store a surplus after the first harvest and building granaries at Cambridge.
Rozwi - didn't receive any starting grain surplus, but I don't know if an African harvest differs from the other positions - historical farming practices obviously being far less advanced than European etc.

I did take control of Savoy in one game, where I did start with a large amount of money in the treasury. This was a game that was well advanced, into the 1730s and my position needed to catch-up with those other well-established states.

One thing this thread has made me think about is looking for possible solutions for Rozwi.
Famine. Draught. War.
Those with access to game 10's newspaper will have seen my pursuit of obtaining Tobacco seeds, and I'm currently reading Mungo Park's Travels in Africa, at the moment, which mentions farming and culinary matters along the Niger river, circa 1800. Shea butter and Kouskous being a staple foodstuff and trading commodity, particular to that area of the World.
Rozwi might just have to see if we can receive a few Farming and Culinary Missions to teach us some new tricks.

Ref poor harvests & famines and how to deal with them I was interested to read that the C17 figures for Danzig Grain exports still exist.

Seems that in early 1600's exports averaged 200,000 tonnes per annum, reaching 250,000 tons in the bumper year of 1618. Not sure if this reflects good Polish Harvest or higher demand as people stacked up ahead of 30 years war.

In 1651 after three years of Cossack unrest exports down to 100,000 tons and two years later figure was down to 60,000 tons which remained the average for rest of the century (Swedish & Turkish Invasions doing major damage to the Commomwealth's Trade & Agriculture).

Sadly figures do not exist for other smaller Commonwealth Ports or for overland trade with Germany & Russia.

My feeling is that if in game some area's like the states of the Polish Commonwealth and the Moria naturally produce a grain surplus for export surplus/open market for grain this would help players hit by a poor harvest.

Ok it would also paint a big target on some ports/area's but "customers" might react badly to sudden grabs.

Also found another oddity about the international grain trade and the supply of grain/bread to Armies in this period is that many of the main contractors were Portugese/Dutch Jews like the Rothchilds who were considered as neatrals and who's agents went everywhere buying and shipping grain.

A Jewish Grain factor might make a interesting for God, King & Country character......if you dont mind Richard having free use of Cossacks, rival merchants, pirates and the inquesition to really spoil your day.

Great post Stuart, Fascinating info on Danzig's grain exports.

Start Bailey wrote:A Jewish Grain factor might make a interesting for God, King & Country character......if you dont mind Richard having free use of Cossacks, rival merchants, pirates and the inquesition to really spoil your day.

I think maybe this could be the answer if Richard was so inclined, In game you borrow money from Jewish money lenders at a % interest rate. Why not buy grain from an in game Jewish grain co-op at either the same terms in % in money or maybe for a claim on a % of next years grain crop or a combination of both money paid and future amount of grain, all to be negotiated with Richard. After all it really is only needed early on in game.

Cheers,

One Grain.

one grain of grain wrote:Great post Stuart, Fascinating info on Danzig's grain exports.

Start Bailey wrote:A Jewish Grain factor might make a interesting for God, King & Country character......if you dont mind Richard having free use of Cossacks, rival merchants, pirates and the inquesition to really spoil your day.

I think maybe this could be the answer if Richard was so inclined, In game you borrow money from Jewish money lenders at a % interest rate. Why not buy grain from an in game Jewish grain co-op at either the same terms in % in money or maybe for a claim on a % of next years grain crop or a combination of both money paid and future amount of grain, all to be negotiated with Richard. After all it really is only needed early on in game.

Cheers,

One Grain.

Dont think you can treat Jewish grain merchants in the same way as in game Jewish Money Lenders since these chaps had formal commissions/contracts from the monarch to supply the troops with grain/bread. In the same way as other contractors supplied merchants supplied weapons & clothing.

The important difference being that most weapons/uniforms were supplied prior to campaigns which contractors for monarch's like William of Orange were trying to buy and supply grain to a "city" of up to 250,000 men & horses which moved around a war zone.

The in game process which may be closer to what I thinking off is merc troop hire. In game some (generally NPC) area's like the Swiss Cantons and the Crimean Khanate habitually hire out troops......a boon to players planning a war.

If some area's naturally produced a grain surplus this would allow players option to buy grain either for a campaign on make up for a poor harvest. Looking at say a 250,000 max surplus from the Polish Commonwealth this is not going to be enough to save high population states like France & Spain from famine but option to import grain could save smaller positions from being wrecked by famine early in game and players dropping out.

Some positions like France, England, Dutch, Prussians start game with built in advantages like ability to produce dredgers, crack naval crews etc which means they tend to be played more often than others. If a few positions start with a grain surplus/export trade like the Polish Commonwealth positions, the Khanate, Morea, the Baltic States its a advantage but not a massive one compared say Franch or the UDP and may act as an incentive for people to try out these positions.

I also think the knowledge that some area's produce a grain surplus could shape some players policies in interesting and perhaps historical ways. Question to a fellow Bey of Rumelia ......If you know the Morea produces say 50,000 tons grain surplus in a given year are you more or less likely to start a war with Venice?

Does the knowledge that the Swedish Army is better supplied (from those Baltic States) mean the Czar is less likely to start the GNW? Or more likely because their grain surplus is too tempting ??

Stuart

PS Found the info on Historic amounts of grain exported by the Polish Commonwealth a bit worrying in view of the in game amounts of grain being used by the Spanish Military in G7 (over 60,000 tons a month). So unless you are willing to spend a long time on "farming" orders and/or ploughing up large area's of the pampas, cutting down trees etc in order to fill your grain Silo's you may wish to limit campaigning to area's you can "live of the land" but I dont think you should only do this on hostile lands if possible.

Still dont understand why you can "live of the land" in the Black Forest but not Normandy.