Game 8

On a more personal note, I'd add that sometimes this game is very frustrating. I have been trying, in-game, for literally years to shutter the spanish inquisition. As far as I'm aware, the in-game impact of doing that is zero. Nada. Nothing. It is just the action of a ruler moving towards the enlightenment period of history and wanting to jettison something that seems too medieval.

Despite that complete lack of game impact, making it happen has been like hammering my own fingers.

I know it has no impact because I did it years ago in Portugal without it having any impact on the nation at all.

count-de-monet wrote:oh dear......scrub one Baltic State from the map of Europe :D

Maybe.

Having been involved in conflict in Africa for several years mostly as a lark, I can say that beating down the locals is often a LOT harder than you'd think it would be!

I think in the long run Russia might have been better off making a deal with Ingrians. By the time the region is 'pacified', it's economy may be obliterated. Never mind the cost and attention that the effort will take.

Feels to me as if Agema's npcs decided the world of Game 8 was just too polite and peaceful...

The Real Louis wrote:Feels to me as if Agema's npcs decided the world of Game 8 was just too polite and peaceful...

Well, my Swashbuckler character is left freezing his brass monkeys off at the gates of St. James Palace, so I could use my Temper to disrupt the peace and quiet if I'm left outside much longer!

The Real Louis wrote:Feels to me as if Agema's npcs decided the world of Game 8 was just too polite and peaceful...

From the Ingrian's perspective, a stranger came into their house, started remodeling, then repeatedly threatened to kill them when they objected to the intruder insisting it was their house.

At some point, what _else_ could the Ingrians have done?

I think they might could have just kept the guy tied up and a little less dead. I imagine that the new Tsar will burn off the field and plow in anything that is there in order to insure that the crop is better next time.

revvaughan wrote:I think they might could have just kept the guy tied up and a little less dead.  I imagine that the new Tsar will burn off the field and plow in anything that is there in order to insure that the crop is better next time.  

I'm not joking when I say, "why?" Every attempt the Ingarians made to negotiate was met with death threats. The Tsar, living, had apparently no value to the Russians, because they offered nothing but threats. The Ingarians even sent the Russians money, and this mollified them not at all. To keep the Tsar alive, he'd have to have some value. The Russians made it clear that the only thing that they'd accept was the Ingarians as serfs. If I were the Ingarian Prince, I think I might well have done the same. Yup, Russia and England may well crush them, but from his perspective he is independent. He was willing to discuss terms and subjugation. The Russians weren't. Nobody was. Everybody just seemed to think he should become a serf and like it. He said "screw you all, I'd rather fight and die."  I expect he will die, but he'll die with some honour intact.

I think if anybody wanted him not to kill the Tsar, somebody could have given him a reason not to. Some hope that he and his weren't toast. Nobody did. He acted.

Lord Westmoreland was to do just that this month... He was to offer to offer several things this month, but alas the execution occurred prior to the chance to speak. It is going to be interesting to see what the prince does now as he is completely without a bargaining chip and his situation has gone from bad for him only to horrible for everyone in Ingria.

Maybe offering something material instead of declaring war might have made a difference. I guess we'll never know.

Though to be fair, the one who is claiming the land, Russia, is the core of it. If they keep saying "submit or die", there's limited amount that other parties can do unless your offer was to make Ingria a British Protectorate.

Think "submit or die" is fairly standard Russian Diplomacy............it certainly is in scabble. Normally with two hour time limit attached to the submit option.

Seems to work quite well in Scabble, only in Scabble the Czar sends an Army with the message rather using personal delivery. He also normally throws in some Schools, Railways & Telegraphs as a incentive to join the Russian Empire. Plus allows local Khans, Hetmen, Nobles etc to keep their lands and titles (well someone has to collect the taxes).

Interestingly, I note that the Russians are now using "Ballet Tours" as a diplomactic tool. But its not yet clear if this works as well as more traditional methods like a Cossack with a very sharp sword.

I've got to be honest, this whole "executing captured foreign rulers" does feel...well it does feel a bit G7...is the madness spreading?

Yes, I think sending an army to deliver the message rather than doing it while in chains is likely more effective!

Jason wrote:I've got to be honest, this whole "executing captured foreign rulers" does feel...well it does feel a bit G7...is the madness spreading?

The really brutal game for the execution of captured rulers was G2........The Spanish burnt the English Prime Ministers wife at the stake for Witchcraft, the Ottomans cut off the head of an Arch Duke of Austria and fired it into Vienna (They also killed a King of Poland & a Doge of Genoa in ambushes. Plus a King of Rumania and a Sultan in battle) while the Abyssians threatened to cover the captured Bey of Egypt in honey and stake him out over a fire ants nest unless a ransom was paid. Think the ransom was £1.5M in gold, a couple of Ports and a promise to go away and not come back.

This was back in the days when the number of troops which would fight effectively was linked to your honour score and if you changed the ruler of your country your honour went down by 50% due to the confusion etc caused by the hand over. So killing foes had a certain logic but in many ways holding them captive did more damage since it limited the number of military orders they could issue.

Thus under the old rules a Russian Govt with its Czar captive was effectively crippled and had a option of a) Paying the Ransom demand which would probably include a promise to respect the freedom of Baltic states etc or b) Having the Czar "die" and replace him with a new Czar at the cost of 50% of Russian Honour.

Would be interested to hear from Russia if anything is left of the old rule's and if under the old rules they would have replaced the Czar or paid the ransom to keep their honour score up? To be fair to Richard while the 50% loss sounds fairly brutal when the Bey of Rumelia was assassinated, following the stab wound he did live long enough to write his last will and testament before his body was taken home to Albania escorted by his sons and 30,000 riders and a good time was had by all with his clan promising blood feud and revenge. A couple of months after the murder Rumelia hit Venice hard.........and honour was soon back to original levels with people saying the son was a chip of the old block.

Polish honour after their King died a heroic death in battle as a Christain Martyr also seemed to recover very quickly. So clearly a good death only lead's to a slight dip in honour which soon recovers. But I wonder if you just refuse to pay the ransom and make no effort to get the Czar back if this will have a long term effect with some of the old Czar's friends and family viewing the new Czar and his chief ministers as a bunch of back stabbing usurpers who betrayed the old Czar?

I am trying to historically role-play both Peter and Alexei. The former was a hot-head, a towering man who used his physical presence to intimidate people and simply expected to get his way. His son had designs on the Crown, conspired against his father and met his death at the torturers hand, at the command of Peter (in game has Alexei deliberately put his father in a dangerous position and made it worse to gain the crown ? )

Honour score has halved with the change in ruler

No argument that the behavior is in-character! I was just speaking up a bit in defense of the Ingrians who I think haven't acted that strangely.

Dumping the body in a river to deny the Tsar a christian burial is a bit beyond the pale, but hey, if Alexei can properly punish them, his honour will shoot up, I'm sure.

Deacon has made a good point, the Ingrians had left themselves with few options...and lets be frank they were buggered either way...if they released the Czar, he would wreck bloody vengeance on them...if they killed him, his son would wreck bloody vengeance on them...

The new Tsar of Russia just turns 18 this month! I had thought that Peter wasn't that old, which made me wonder so I went and looked it up.

If you have daughters or relations of marriageable age, now would be the time to trot them out! Closest I have is a 12 year old girl which is a bit too young even for the times!

I can confirm the new Tsar WILL be looking for a wife ! The Romanov line since Michael is rapidly becoming very tragic with little sign of a strong bloodline !

count-de-monet wrote:I can confirm the new Tsar WILL be looking for a wife !  The Romanov line since Michael is rapidly becoming very tragic with little sign of a strong bloodline !

Is Orthodoxy a requisite?

Traditionally The Tsar has married women who converted upon marriage.

I guess my memory is of the later Russian Court:

Alexei's historical bride

The bride (currently 14 in game period as the Tsarevich historically married later) was the first international bride, and was permitted to keep her lutheran faith. That's at odds with what I remember of these marriages (must be from later) where the brides converted to orthodoxy.

Deacon wrote:
No argument that the behavior is in-character! I was just speaking up a bit in defense of the Ingrians who I think haven't acted that strangely.

Dumping the body in a river to deny the Tsar a christian burial is a bit beyond the pale, but hey, if Alexei can properly punish them, his honour will shoot up, I'm sure.

If nobody knows were Peter is buried how do the Russian Serfs and Cossacks know he is dead? He could have just been stunned and the cold water revived him.

We could be set for a period of lots of "false" Peters springing up claiming to be the true Czar of Russia. Who's near death experience and period spent as a Holy Hermit has changed their views and they now wish to free the serfs, bring back old Russian Religion and punish their evil and unchristain son and ministers who betrayed the Czar.

Think the Ingians need to find the "True Peter" and offer him their full support in exchange for a Royal Pardon.

Stuart that's a brilliant and funny idea. Just the sort of thing that would appeal to my playing of the game.....the Russians will not be giving up hope on the discovery of Peter, alive, well and miraculously restored to full health

I can just imagine, the insanity that could be played out. Fakers show up in court claiming to be the new Tsar's father. He embraces them at first, then in the ensuing days begins to test them, and when they inevitably fail invents some new and horrific way to execute them.

Folks,

I'm a bit distracted, so won't be a great in-game correspondent here in game 8 for a bit. Apologies to all, and please don't take it personally.