G7 - France vs. England

It has been an interesting debate.

If Stuart's assessment is right, then the key reason for the refusal of Austria to negotiate is simply that, like Frank, he has a fixed idea of an aggressive Louis and won't let the facts of the game alter that perception. The easiest way to ignore facts is to cut off communication and keep presenting your own view as 'true', browbeating all opposition until they accept it, like a child pestering its parents: eventually the parents end up playing the child's game. Louis probably did have a 'credibility problem' by the 1680s, but Leopold has to realise that this is not the 1680s: it is 1705.

This ties in with an earlier point I made about the paralysis in the game coming from the split in the Hapsburg camp between the peaceful and realistic Spanish Hapsburgs and the warmongering Austrian Hapsburgs. If you actually look at the progress of the game, from 1700-1702/3 when France and the Spanish Hapsburgs were doing their best to build understanding, we reached a consensus which kept the peace. This typified the 'defensive' Louis, and most nations were happy with that. However, that consensus was blown apart when Leopold broke his treaty and attacked France. Since then it must have been very frustrating for him going round Europe trying to gain allies on the basis that 'Louis is going to hit back', yet having to rely on evidence from the 1680s to back up his fear. From a game viewpoint he has no case. I will readily concede that as Louis I should have hit back harder against Leopold, which under the circumstances is what was more likely historically. Perhaps some allowance can be made for the mechanism of the game, though: it is rather time consuming and costly in terms of real world money to fight 2 wars simultaneously!

I still think you are under-estimating the defensive mindset of Louis and its causes, certainly by 1700. It was in the 1680s-90s that Vauban remodelled the defence of France based on chains of fortresses and ne plus ultra fortified lines. In 1705 Louis was 67 and already the longest serving monarch in the world. He was feeling his own mortality. He had built his monument (Versailles), extended the glory of his empire; he had nothing to prove. He remained reluctant to give up power, but even within his own family the way that power was exercised inevitably changed, managing the ambitions of not just his own children, but grandchildren as well. And with age came a growing religious devotion.

There may also have been a slight boredom. Louis relished challenges, but when you are at the top and have achieved your goals, what do you do next to extend your glory? You can see the same trait in Napoleon: he had mastered the art of war and proved it to the point where it became an inconvenience to him to defeat his enemies again. It was time for Louis to enjoy the fruits of peace.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Currently all Louis has to say is the sky is blue and a whole bunch of Hapsburgs walk outside and look up or start a debate on what is blue.

You don't know how true that is


I'll do my best to avoid the 'paranoid', and expect events to continue to prove me right.

Leopold (Basileus) - I am not going to be drawn into directly discussing the game with you here. I will clarify points made previously in the Herald, but that is all.

The discussion was about contrasting how people expect Louis to be played to how I am playing him. In G7 a theme you have consistently (and successfully) exploited, is that Louis is a military threat to Europe, a threat which you have sought to counter by building an alliance against me. I have argued (successfully), that although you could have made such a case in the 1680s, by 1705 Louis' mindset had turned defensive. I am playing the Louis of 1705, not of 1680, and in that sense claim to be historically more realistic. This is something you have been repeatedly told in the game and have plenty of evidence to support, but chosen to ignore. Your perception of how I play France clearly is wrong, or are you now telling me that you know how I'm playing my own position better than I do?

Look at the facts of the game, not the 'position' you have adopted in hindsight to justify your actions; look at what has happened, not what you hoped would happen, and then you might be able help resolve the situation you created by breaking your treaty and attacking France. Or are you now denying that this is what you did? Eventually you will realise that the war must be settled diplomatically, and that means replying to letters and negotiating with France. Or do you think this is going to be resolved some other way, in which case I'm sure everyone on this forum would love to know?

I do hope someone is going to post some more recent newspapers on the Wiki so that fans of "Yea Olde Soap Opera" will be able to catch genuine episodes

The last entry on the Wiki was July 1705; the next turn back will be November 1705.

A History of French (and other) Peace Terms

Apologies in advance for the length of this posting, but as the information has been requested, I have reprinted all the peace terms published in the Herald over the period requested, updated to the end of the last turn.

Original French Peace Proposals which appeared in the Herald January 1704

French Peace Proposals 1704

An army of France now occupies English soil. It is there for 2 reasons:
a) to secure compensation for France after England broke its word over dredgers
b) to restore the Stuart succession bringing an end to the current embarrassment of a government which by its incompetence risk general European war.

King Louis recognises that England is not France, that there are different traditions, including that of the English Parliament. The proposed settlement works within these traditions.

1. England finds herself in a mess because the rightful Stuart kings are Catholic and because European tradition suggests the monarch determines the religion of his people. So it is in France, but not in England where following the Civil War, Parliament has rejected Catholic restoration, reflecting the views of the majority of English people. This saddens King Louis, but it is a fact, and is the biggest barrier to a Stuart restoration. It need not be if Parliament accepts the principle of Freedom of Religion and the King allows Parliament to determine the official religion of the nation. The religion of the monarch then becomes irrelevant and a member of the House of Stuart can be King. Parliament is expected to confirm the official Protestant religion of England, but will accept that freedom of religion also applies to Catholics, so the spiteful anti-Catholic legislation of the 1690s is repealed.
2. A new king will do much to revitalise English pride, however this advantage will be lost if the country again becomes embroiled in European politics. England is primarily a trading nation, yet since the late 1680s her wealth has been drained to support foreign wars, generally against France. France has no intention of ruling England, but for her own good we insist that England agrees to neutrality: she will not attack France, nor be part of an anti-French alliance, for at least 5 years. Consequently any defensive treaties England has/makes will be void in the event of one of the parties being involved in a conflict with France. As part of this new entente England will surrender disputed sovereignty over Masulipatam and Newfoundland (which are held jointly with France). England and France are then at peace.
3. To assist the new government of England, France will make a large (£1M+) investment in Anglo-French trade to kick start the English economy.
4. England’s delays in meeting her obligation to provide France with spoon dredger technology and subsequent repeated denials of this obligation caused significant damage to the French economy (estimated £1M) and necessitated the rebuilding of canals (costing £2M). To cover these costs £3M in cash damages is to be paid by England to France. To avoid a recurrence, England is to provide France with technology to enable her to build spoon dredgers and East Indiamen.
5. To satisfy French honour the ‘English’ Channel is to be referred to as La Manche (or ‘The Channel’) thereby avoiding the possessive.
6. England’s Baltic Fleet which fled to Copenhagen is surrendered to France as compenstation for its action in preventing shipments of famine relief from Denmark. The action of this English fleet was shameful and dishonours the reputation of the English Royal Navy. France will permit the officers of those ships to return to England to face English justice for their crimes.
7. England’s failure to accept diplomatic solutions required France to send an army. It is only right that England pays the cost of this expedition, amounting to £1M plus £100,000 per month from March 1704. clearly the sooner Parliament agrees to these reasonable terms, the less she is required to pay and the sooner the French army can go back to France.

Parliament should vote on these proposals and then offer these terms first to James Stuart (SN85); if he has not accepted them within 2 months, then they are to be offered to James Duke of Berwick (whose father was King James II) for his acceptance. If by June 1704, no settlement has been agreed by Parliament, then less favourable terms will be imposed by right of conquest.

**

In May 1704 William (the son) published an open letter.

In June 1704 France won the Battle of Medway and destroyed the English navy.

In July/August France captured Jamaica and a chunk of the English fleet. The main French army allocated to England landed, escorting James Stuart.

September 1704 Austria declared war on France. “The reason being France’s unreasonable war aims against England. Austria has no claims against France. Rather it wishes to see a reasonable peace negotiated based on the cause of the war which was a minor trading issue.” The same month walked into the undefended French town of Besancon, having broken the Treaty of Reconciliation signed by Leopold in February 1703 (published in the Herald that month), specifically clause 2 which reads: “Austria agrees not to attack the Kingdom of France, its colonies, dominions and protectorates.” As England is not a colony, dominion or protectorate of France, there was nothing in this treaty which would have stopped Austria attacking French troops in England.

Also in September 1704, having renovated Canterbury Cathedral, James Stuart was crowned King. Initial siege positions were taken by the combined French and Jacobite armies around London.

In October 1704, a set of Hapsburg proposals was issued to ‘end’ the war:
1. England promises to send France a spoon dredger mission
2. England promises to pay France £1M in compensation for breach of the spoon dredger contract.
3. All English and allied forces to withdraw form French and allied territory within six months of a treaty being signed.
4. France promises to acknowledge William IV as King of England, Scotland and Ireland and promises to withdraw all support for Jacobites and other rebels against William IV.
5. All French and allies forces to be withdrawn from English and allied territory within 6 months of the treaty being signed.
6. All captured ships and crews plus other PoWs to be returned within six months of treaty being signed.
7. England to ceded Masulipatam and Newfoundland to France.
8. France to cede Ancona to the Papal States.
9. France promises to cease meddling in the internal affairs of the Holy roman Empire and the Kingdom of Hungary and withdraw all support for rebels against the authority of the Emperor and King of Hungary.
10. William IV promises to tolerate private worship by Catholics in England and Scotland, and Public worship by Catholics in Ireland.


These terms were unacceptable, for reasons explained in the French statement of November 1704. Clauses 1,2, 7 were acceptable; clauses 3 and 5 depend on how ‘allied territory’ is defined. Clauses 4, 8 were unacceptable; clause 6 could not be fulfilled as some units had been broken up and crews dispersed; clause 9 requires France to repudiate rights under the Treaty of Westphalia; clause 10 was a compromise which fell far short of safeguarding Catholic rights under the law.

However, in the spirit of compromise to end the Austrian-French war, France did issue 5 proposals which were instantly rejected by the Hapsburgs and have subsequently been withdrawn by France so are not included here.


In December 1704, there was a rather puzzling announcement from London … William (a new player), ‘veto the surrender announced by the Duke of Ormonde last month’. There was some confusion over whether England had surrendered in November, if it had, then that wasn’t communicated to France. The only statement by the Duke of Ormonde related to his acceptance of the Spanish peace proposals which had already been rejected by France. Meanwhile the French army outside London withdrew to winter quarters having made a breach in the city walls.

With a new player, I offered more reasonable peace terms once again, published in January 1705 as the Concorde of Beauvais:

This treaty contains proposals to end the long running conflict between England and France, and prevent the conflict spreading further throughout Europe.

Terms to End the Anglo-French War

1. England will repeal anti-Catholic legislation of the 1690s and pass laws giving Catholics freedom of worship. Any infringement of this clause will give France legitimate excuse to declare war on England to restore those rights to Catholics.
2. England is already on the public record admitting her guilt over the issue of dredgers. As compensation for this England will surrender Masulipatam and Newfoundland which are currently disputed areas of sovereignty between France and England. France will also keep all captured colonies (Jamaica and Barbados) and ships, though recruit exchanges may be allowed where there is agreement between the parties. French and Jacobite troops in England will be permitted unhindered passage to their embarkation points to withdraw to France. France will withdraw from captured towns in England.
3. To satisfy French honour the ‘English’ Channel is to be referred to as La Manche (or ‘The Channel’) thereby avoiding the possessive.
4. France will reduce the amount of damages requested from England from £5M+ to £1M.
5. England will pass legislation which makes the English North American colonies independent.
6. King James Stuart has been crowned King of England. However, it is clear that he faces considerable opposition from foreign backed forces should he seek to govern. Although it would be possible to seize control by force, in the process much damage would be done to England, his kingdom. Therefore, King James consents to a free and fair election for like his grandfather, King Charles II, he would not wish to begin his reign by shedding the blood of Englishmen. If, by a simple majority, King James wins, then England retains its independence under the Stuarts; if King James loses, then he will make no further armed attempt to take power for at least 10 years. France promises not to support such an attempt throughout this period.
7. Whoever wins the election (and forms the next government of England), is committed to peace with France. England will not provide any support to nations hostile to France; such nations include those who are diplomatically hostile.

Terms to End Subsidiary Conflicts

As this conflict has unfortunately spread beyond the original participants, further clauses are required to stop the English war being used as an excuse for general conflict. It is recognised that during times of war certain comments are made which do not reflect the true opinion of their authors. When such comments are circulated in attempts to prevent peace then those responsible must publicly renounce their statements. Consequently,
8. France apologies to Leopold of Austria for her intemperate language and to any other nation who may consider themselves so affected.
9. Austria apologies to France for breaking her treaty and invading France. By way of damages, Austria agrees to cede the Duchy of Lorraine to France on the death of Leopold. Austrian forces currently occupying French territory will surrender to French forces who will allow them to withdraw (without their artillery pieces) to the other side of the Rhine.
10. Spain apologises to King James Stuart and the Jacobites for repeatedly accusing the Jacobites of being pirates; Spain will recognise the legitimacy of the Stuart Succession and by way of damages will pay King James Stuart £400,000 compensation.
11. Spain will guarantee on her honour that Leopold of Austria will not attack France for the next 25 years or break any other treaty Austria may sign with France. In the event of such a breach, Spain is required to ally with France to remove the government of Austria. Should Spain give this guarantee then France considers itself at peace with Austria.
12. Spain will permit France, as a Mediterranean Maritime Power, to join the League of St.George, and therefore stand with other regional Italian Catholic powers in promoting trade and defending it against piracy. By this action, Spain demonstrates her commitment to including France in Catholic alliances instead of seeking to isolate and condemn her.

These terms were rejected by William in February; in March Russia declared war on Austria as per her obligations under a mutual defensive treaty with France.

From March through to November French and Jacobite troops in England brought 70-75% of English territory under the control of King James, including all major ports except London. Former Williamite strongholds of York and Hull fell to French forces. Minor rebellions were swiftly put down. Throughout the summer, increasing numbers of English towns declared for King James.

In May 1705 Marlborough led William’s army out of London to meet the main French army at Staines, fired a few cannon balls across the river and then withdrew back to London. No reported casualties.

In July, with still no sign that William would negotiate, King James finally agreed peace terms with France. These are contained in 2 documents published in July: The Concorde of Bristol and Proclamation of Accession.

The Concode of Bristol 1705

This agreement between France and England settles claims arising from England’s failure to honour her agreement with France over the dredgers.

1. King James will repeal anti-Catholic legislation of the 1690s and pass laws giving Catholics freedom of worship.
2. King James will recognise full French sovereignty over Masulipatam, Newfoundland and Jamaica.
3. The ‘English’ Channel is to be referred to as La Manche (or ‘The Channel’) thereby avoiding the possessive.
4. King James will follow the wishes of the English North American Colonies and grant their independence if that is what they truly desire. He hopes the Colonies will retain their trade links with England, but reminds them that independence means they are responsible for their own defence and should make their own treaties with their enemies.
5. France may keep all captured vessels/units as compensation towards the costs of the war.
6. King James promises to maintain a spoon dredger mission in France until such a time when the French have learned to make their own spoon dredgers. France promises to maintain a ladle dredger mission in England until such a time when the English have learned to make their own ladle dredgers.
7. King James apologises to France for the delay in sending the spoon dredger mission and for the resulting economic damage caused to France.

Proclamation of Accession 1705

This document contains formal recognition of King James Stuart by France and sets out the respective obligations of the parties going forward.

1. James Francis Edward Stuart, born 1688 to James Stuart, King of England, Ireland and Scotland was crowned in September 1704 at Canterbury in accordance with the laws and customs of the realm. France recognises King James as the true and only King of these lands and urges other nations to do likewise.
2. The word of a ruler should be kept. Previous Williamite governments failed to remember this and by refusing to acknowledge their error or negotiate with France caused a damaging war and the suffering of many traders and civilians. It is the duty of a King to right wrongs and interpret the law to protect his subjects. King James has ended the war by signing the Concord of Bristol, satisfying English and French honour. The clauses of this treaty should be implemented by Crown representatives immediately and peace be restored to the realm.
3. King James will call a new Parliament in loyal territory once fresh elections are held.
4. King James and King Louis agree that the presence of French forces in England is undesirable. However, until King James can establish the loyalty of English crown forces and ships, and raise sufficient units to defend his lands from attack, he may request assistance from France. Until King James proclaims otherwise French forces are permitted access to English towns/ports and supplies. French forces will help defend these islands if attacked by a 3rd party.
5. All English forces are ordered to stop attacking French forces and return to their nearest base where they are to swear an oath of loyalty to King James. By taking the oath units will be pardoned for any crimes against His Majesty and given the opportunity to serve to rebuild the country. Any units which refuse to take the oath, continue to attack French forces or stir up rebellion in England may be attacked by French forces.

The effect of these statements is that the war between England and France is over. However, France is obliged to help King James secure his Kingdom. England, under King James, remains independent of France. There is no question of French annexation of England or of France imposing Catholicism on England. These are the final terms which were signed to end the war, and they represent many significant compromises over the original terms demanded by France. King James was a tough negotiator! William was offered similar terms, but refused to negotiate. Having agreed peace terms with the King of England I don't see how I can do so again or alter those terms.

France is bound by these treaties to continue to fight the enemies of King James within the British Isles, and whether the enemies are William, a group of rebellious nobles or a gang of Tory thugs, France will honour its commitments.

France remains at war with Austria, which is an entirely separate war, even though Austria refuses to accept that it is. If Austria claimed to be fighting for 'better terms' for England, then she has achieved that aim. To fight on now merely confirms that Austria declared war on France for other reasons.

Also in July there was a run on the Bank of England which caused great economic damage to Williamite credibility, and France began a blockade of the Humber in preparation for the capture of York and Hull.

By October 1705 the Haspburgs issued the Treaty of Brussels, on the basis that because they don’t recognise King James, nobody can make an agreement with him.

I include these terms for completeness and to comply with the rules of the forum reserve any more comment on them until the publication of the next game turn which should include France's official response.

Treaty of Brussels October 1705

i. England promises to send France a spoon dredger mission.
ii. England and its allies (defined in this clause and afterwards as Scotland, Ireland, the Holy Roman Empire plus other lands and territories of the Hapsburg family outside of the Holy Roman Empire in Spain and the United Provinces plus their colonies) promise to pay France £1,000,000 in compensation for breach of contracts and treaties with France by no later than March 1706.
iii. All English and allied forces to withdraw from France within six months of this treaty being signed.
iv. France and its allies (defined in this clause and afterwards as Russia) promise to acknowledge William IV as King of England, Scotland and Ireland, and promise to withdraw all support for Jacobite and other rebels against William IV.
v. All French and allied forces to withdraw from England and allied territory within six months of this treaty being signed.
vi. England to cede Jamaica, Masulipatam and Newfoundland to France.
vii. France and its allies promise not to support rebels against the authority of the Emperor and the King of Hungary.
viii. France promises to withdraw its envoy to the Reichstag of the Holy Roman Empire and not to send a replacement.
ix. William IV promises to tolerate private worship by Catholics in England and Scotland, an Public worship by Catholics in Ireland.
x. All signatories to this treaty promise not to attack each other by any means for five years.


I hope this helps bring everyone up to date.