'Micro' Player nations

What do people feel is the smallest viable nation to play in game? In the time of the game, as we all know, some of the nations in the HRE were quite small.

I have played a Denmark, stripped of Norway and Iceland, and in G3 we have an Americas Republic.

I doubt anyone would want to play an Imperial Free City but what is the smallest nation that can be played? Is a population of 1 million the lower limit? is it a certain technological level? Does a nation need something to offer to other nations? Is it a combination?

The vatican is small, but has a lot of power due to its leading role in the Catholic Church.

When I first started some of the smaller German States were unhistorically put together to make them more playable, there was a Mecklenberg-Brunswick position for example.

I think 1 million is the lower limit, or really some unique edge that makes you relevant to the rest of the world.

the Papal States is pretty darn small by game standards, but at least you're the pope, so you have some relevancy to global politics.

I think some of the smaller german or italian states would be even worse.

Part of the problem is the issue of scale. The rich, big nation have a lot more resources, and the game is ahistorical in some senses on how much you can build, so over time the difference between the big and the small nations grows even larger. (I am glad, since really starving players of resources would just make the game less fun I think, but it does have knock-on consequences)

In Game 3, where I picked up the Papal states, I'm having fun with the roleplay, and fun experimenting with advances, but other than being Pope, I am pretty irrelevant power-wise by 1737. I don't think there's a way I could become relevant. (It is probably also true in 1700, but I've not played the position then, so won't speculate.)

Another factor that I don't like about the smaller positions is that you're hurt a lot more by some of the game rules than larger nations.

For example, my population is about 3.3M. So to implement any 1k per 1M population advance, I've got to commit 4K people (Richard rounds up). that means I have to pay a 700 person premium as it were in that 4K, or effectively or about 20% more men.

Consider if I were spain with 8.3M population. that same 700 extra bodies is only a 8% premium.

And when recruits are hard to come by, that does add up.

As pope you can gain in other ways. In game 6 spain and france are fighting Morocco and giving it to the pope and papal states. So you can prosper and gain that way. You just need freindly catholic rulers. Mainly france and spain, as they are the big boys militarily. So that is the way very small nations can make large gains. Best wishes all.

jamesbond007 wrote:As pope you can gain in other ways. In game 6 spain and france are fighting Morocco and giving it to the pope and papal states. So you can prosper and gain that way. You just need freindly catholic rulers. Mainly france and spain, as they are the big boys militarily. So that is the way very small nations can make large gains. Best wishes all.

Good point JB and good to hear from you, have missed your postings lately

There maybe some historical examples for Micro Positions.

Take the Duke of Brunswick, he allied hi shouse to Prussia & became a field Marshal in their army. Or Eugene of Savoy, his land fought for with France, but he was the Best General the Empire had.

In Game turns it would mean Larger positions taking other smaller positions under there wing. A degree of trust & cooperation is also required.

J Flower wrote:There maybe some historical examples for Micro Positions.

Take the Duke of Brunswick, he allied hi shouse to Prussia & became a field Marshal in their army. Or Eugene of Savoy, his land fought for with France, but he was the Best General the Empire had.

In Game turns it would mean Larger positions taking other smaller positions under there wing. A degree of trust & cooperation is also required.

Those are good examples! In G3 I did have a similar situation with England (once I got them to get over their desire to invade me!) and it did help as a small power and someone new to Glory. Interestingly it has effected the way I play, leading me to be helpful to new players I encounter.

What may have hit "micro" positions a bit is the introduction of unlimited military change orders and less emphasis on 10 Units per ten points of honour.

If for example France, The Ottoman Sultan, Austria, England or Russia had six honour points but 400 units and 3/4 Military Changes a turn then German/Italian/Ottoman & Cossack Princes with say eight honour points & two military changes were vital additions to the larger powers military or colonial organization.

This provided a game reason to appoint "foreign" Princes to command in larger military establishments. Quite a common happening in the period........Austrian armies for example were commanded by a Duke of Lorraine, a Elector of Baden, Also several members of Italian Princely Dynasties.

A good example of this in G7 was when the Spanish appointed the head of the HWIC Viceroy of Africa purely because with limited MC orders they could not protect their small and scattered African colonies from Pirates.

If press reports are anything to go by a Spanish Colonial backwater is now doing well & the HWIC seems to be having fun trying to corner the market in Slaves & Ivory.

Interesting point on how the change in order limits made it much more viable for larger positions to go it alone.

It maybe an idea for Micro positions to have a lower price scale, with limited Orders, MC. It could be possiable to band some of these together in a future game as a semi team position, In G7 I beleive most of the larger positions started with at least two players. So an expansion on that ideya maybe workable, Ideas could be The Chinese Empire, or THe HRR, both have a figurehead leader, but the component parts of the Empire have a certain degree of freedom.

It appears the Classic micro position could well be the varous Pirate players. They need a high degree of luck & cunning to survive. If they get a powerful patron Nation then they stand a better chance of survival. However as soon as one of the Major maritime Nations decide to put an end to them then there days are usually numbered.

It is the classic pirate dilemma.

If you have a low profile and do not attack any high profile target the position may last a while, but is it fun to hide for years?

The extreme option is of course to attack as many high profile targets as possible, getting a lot of bad press. Making just about everyone trying to stamp on you, and some of them will be dedicated to the job. Probably a short career but it should be very exciting while it lasts.

It is probabbly the Glamour dise that many pirate positions go for.

The position is on the edge, one falsch attack or slip up & your character is doing the Hemp Tapdance routine.
I guess it is fun while it lasts, you never know which turn will be your last.

I think that's for simplicity's sake, if nothing else. Richard doesn't have to keep coming up with new names all the time, because certainly there were no shortage of new pirates...

Has anyone ever played any of the American Indian Tribes? RKL, didn't you give it a go once? Or consider it?

Not you? I'm sure someone did, back in the day. I'm sure they established a federation of tribes. Perhaps I'm imagining it.

Boy, I'd think that would be a difficult and thankless position. You have very few people, small pox is obliterating you, and you have tons of inter-tribal conflicts that the white colonists can exploit.

I don't think I'd want to pay money to be that frustrated!

Theres a good chance I've imagined the whole thing - it wouldn't be the first time. It's hard to believe that I've been playing this game so many years now - since I was 19/20 years old (if my poor memory serves). In fact, I don't think theres anything else I've pursued for such a long time - other than smoking

An Indian tribal position would be interesting to play I'm sure! I guess its one chance might be if it was played early on and the European powers were busy in Europe...and if the player didn't raid their colonies...

I have wondered about how viable it might be to play a Pacific island position? Tonga springs to mind, it did (I think) in the 18th Century become centralised and powerful, building a naval 'empire' (with warships capable of carrying 100 warriors) but I suspect it is too isolated and limited in resources/population to develop much.

I would imagine the technology levels would be your major problem, so long as you are up against a similarly developed enemy everything is alright, once you bump up against a more advanced one your days are numbered. An historical example could be the Zulu Nation in S. Africa, they swept virtually all before them before they encountered the white settlers in hte form of initially the Boers, and eventually the Brits.