Dropping Games

jamesbond007 wrote:

Deacon wrote:

jamesbond007 wrote:If it is spy activity. Then it goes back to my point earlier this month. Spy activity is having far too much success.

I do agree with you. That secret spy activity detracts from the fun of the game.

Everybody likes different parts of the game.  Spy actions are as legitimate a game action as armies, investment and every other game action.  It isn't fun to get stuck by a spy action, but it isn't fun to lose a war either.

From my experience they are not nearly as easy as some people think they are.

From my experience. When a spy from Portugal turns, the head of the army from Spain and that leads to King Pedro of Portugal becoming crowned king of Spain that is unrealistic. Especially when it takes only 8 turns for it to happen.

Admittedly I played Spain poorly, but I didn't expect that to happen in under two game years. Especially when it takes a year to raise spies in the first place.

If spies are overthrowing Rulers and ruining trade results so easily, I think Richard gives them too much success. Just my personal opinion.

Spies take 6 months. Trust me, there was a LOT more going on than this. I can't say, but perhaps if I ever leave the game I will. It was definitely nowhere near as simple as you think. I didn't start out with Portugal with an intent to do anything other than just play the position and mess with my colonies, but when you told me before the game began that you'd deal with me after the spanish succession was over, you forced my hand. A united spain can crush portugal, so if I wanted to keep playing, I had to deal with spain. I don't know that I'd say you played poorly, but you did give me some openings that I fully exploited.

Some have said that being a regent is no different than being a king. I disagree. Regents can be and were replaced. The situation in Spain is far more tenuous than most players seem to think. During the period, a lot of options were floated as possible rulers for spain. There were a lot of factions with different inclinations and interests. It wasn't as cut and dried as people seem to think between france and austria.

As for England, I personally doubt that spies are the cause of their trade issue. I've had errors on my annual income before, and that seems most likely to me. If not that, then I suspect it is a problem with trade missions, or oversupply of specific goods or something like that.

My closing my ports other than lisbon and cadiz to England could(should) have had an effect, but I would be hard pressed to imagine that it would be that significant, particularly since it only occurred late in the year. If Richard puts it down to that, I'd appeal that the penalty is too high (assuming what you said about your EH and income is accurate).

However, I know that in game 3 when as Pope the ottomans annoyed me by shutting my missions to the orthodox (I was trying to heal the schism), I issued a bull that forbade pilgrimages to the holy lands to hurt the ottomans back (at the time pilgrims had to travel on ottoman boats). The Ottoman player told me in a letter that this action had really hurt his trade. How much, I don't know, but from my previous comments about the papal states and my trade missions, I think Richard takes any excuse to whack the heck out of your trade income.

Lol. When i said i would deal with you after the succession, it was meant as a joke. But that is unimportant. I was very slow in getting my spies up and running and this was my biggest error in game 8 that cost me.

But we know alot more info today as gameplayers, like players personalities and habits, countrys sizes and strengths,abilities of troops. Mineral deposits. The list is endless. Point i am making is. That armed with all this info and with a clever use of spies we can easily ruin good games by spy work and i feel if we all go down that road enjoyment will lesson.

Good work that takes time to open up and operate can easily be undone by spywork if we are not careful. I personly feel Richard does not take into account enough the knowledge we have today that they didn't have in those days when evaluating spy success.

In a nutshell, Glory could easily be turned into a game of spying rather than wargaming. That would be a tradegy for a great game like Glory.

Well, I took you seriously.

I dont think spy's can do much to hurt trade/EH as a rough rule of thumb I work on:

Honour........hurt by a) Agents b) Propaganda c) Saying truth about idiot Mefti's & the Janissary corp d) Richard.

EH ......hurt by a) Famine b) War c) Richard.

Trade Income .....hurt by a) Piracy b) Harbour Blockades c) Other players using trade subsidies to under-cut rivals d) Richard.

What I dont understand is why naval blockades seem to do more economic damage than a major invasion.

I guess spy's can be used to find out a rivals major trades and so better target "economic" attacks. But their direct damage to trade and EH should be minor. With possible exception of states which benefit from particular trade secrets such as China Tea and Porcelain which can be stolen.

I think it's possible that an agent could mess with your EH/trade, but I think it is far more likely that it was other things.

If somebody wanted to mess with you with agents, there are a lot better things to do. Acts of Union, Ireland, American colonies, Jacobites to name just a couple.  Trade would be an odd choice.

I think Richard likes agents because it feeds the paranoia of his players, but sometimes stuff just happens.

you must also remember some country's do not have a large army, maybe just a few battalions and squadrons, so spies become their new armed forces. Its a matter of economics and defense.

I would rather have some spies than spending ill afforded money on a large army when I need to build up the economy. Spies can be passive or active depending on their orders, they can also pretend to be from a different country or want to be captured and offer to be a double agent but actually be working for you, the list is endless.

When I played the Jacobites in game 7, really the only thing I could do was use agents.

{edit: Cell phones auto correct of jacobites was a bit odd.}

Nothing wrong with using agents. But when these agents from very small populations end up taking over country's or killing the trade revenues of country's 50 times bigger than them. Then I think something is wrong.😃


I don't think Richard takes into account the quality of these agents from very small populations, in relation to agents and country's many times bigger than them. There must also be a fear factor amongst these agents from small country's when they are asked to do something so risky and dangerous amongst much bigger foes as well.

Hi all,

I’ve managed to briefly review this forum thread. Honestly it’s maddening for me! Why? Because the success of a spy network happened ONCE in the game since 1989 and the idea that it is ‘going to ruin the game and take it over’ is, to be blunt, fallacious rubbish. Also the effort expended in the takeover was complex, immense, huge and very, very clever – and the target player played into the other player’s hands numerous times (without knowing it). Could it happen in real life? Certainly could; for example this would be a means of engineering the Glorious Revolution 1688 (which event would otherwise in-game hardly ever happen). That said, that players are running around like headless chickens thinking this is now going to become the norm is ridiculous (and it’s not like the scenario just happened – it was something like a couple of years ago in real time?).

All players really need to be do is beef up their counter-intelligence security, then the risks involved in spying become just as dangerous for the perpetrator.

That said, use of spies is allowed in-game and a means of smaller nations influencing events by other than military means, and they can be used as an adjunct to military operations as well (for example, to open the gates of a besieged city – the historical examples of such things happen go back to antiquity!). Naturally the influence of spies/agents on real history is to a large degree hidden by their very nature, but it is a certain fact that they were employed during the 18th century. Besides, this is a game, first and foremost, and if big nations are invulnerable we have a problem (also, remember hitting Honour score 1 is going to have an impact in-game).

I don’t think the game players have changed particularly, and indeed neither has the game in this regard, I just think on the forum when a discussion like this starts it magnifies a particular aspect of the game amongst a few players interested in what is being discussed and thus gives the impression it has given some of you. I also suspect that if a player is feeling a bit down anyway, whether due to in-game or real life events, it can be enough to cause a player drop due to this apparent ‘magnification’ leading to a degree of paranoia! That is my hunch, anyway, for what it’s worth.

Regards,

Richard

As I said Spies have a big impact and if used right and not just to steal plans can cause real mayhem. I have said this countless times over the years but no one really listens and instead has big armies every where. Spies are cheaper, more efficient if used right.

Do not blame the GM first look at what you did wrong to let it happen.......

Hi Folks

erm...not quite the sort of responses I was expecting but hey ho...

Just to say firstly how much I enjoy the games; been playing them since the late 90s or early 2000s (no longer sure when I started), my play time has vastly exceeded the length of my marriage and my game play has been more successful too

Bit puzzled by some of the comments.  I've always found the spying aspect an interesting and fun part of the games (even when I have been on the receiving end apparently).  must admit I often don't prepare my counter-spying procedures properly (and would welcome advice).

Must also say I don't recognise any situations where spying is spoiling a game or has an undue influence in a game.  Spying has for me always been something that paid small dividends and I have never seen another player achieve miracles with it; if they had I would be quite impressed.  

Finally, Merry Christmas to you all 

hi guys,
this is my confirmation I am dropping from the games I am involved in. Rightly or wrongly, possibly knee jerk, but I have convinced myself the nature of the game has changed and its best for me to stop playing. Please indulge me for a few minutes.

First a massive thank you to Richard. I started playing with Agema in 1991 and the various games have brought me a huge amount of enjoyment. It really has been a fantastic game.

I have never been great at linking forum members to player positions, so I hope these people are members. A HUGE apology to the following for my dropping out. These players have been great to interact with......(G7) Moldova (past and present) and Jacobite England, (G8) Hanover and Denmark and (G9) Bavaria. Guys I am truly sorry.

To (G8) Prussia - the only player I have met in person at a wargame convention. Nice guy and I think mis-understood a bit in the game environment.

And I save the best until last....jamesbond007....Roy. A couple of years ago there was a huge impact in my life (and perhaps this has tainted me over the last two years). I posted on the forum that I may be knocked backwards. I discovered my daughter had been abused by my step dad and endured two (Thank God) failed suicide attempts by her, and her commitment to a secure hospital for a year that was 200 miles away from home. Roy, to this day, sends regular messages asking how my daughter is doing and is everything ok. Roy, I can never tell you how much the impact of those messages of support had, to a stranger, when my Faith in everything was rocked to the core.

To everyone on the forum a wonderful and merry xmas and a happy new year.

Paul

The Glory world will certainly miss you Count ( Paul ). Let's hope that one day soon you decide to come back to Glory. It has been a pleasure to play against you over the years. Good luck in life, you deserve some.

Hi Paul

Firstly, am so sorry, had no idea what you and your family had been going through.

As the latest Moldavian player in G7 (though having to drop it) can i just say you have been a pleasure to work with and it's always been a delight to talk in game to you.

I do hope you change your mind, as you are a strong player and add a lot to the games you are in...and I really do hope we see you in G10...

Kingmaker wrote:As I said Spies have a big impact and if used right and not just to steal plans can cause real mayhem.  I have said this countless times over the years but no one really listens and instead has big armies every where. Spies are cheaper, more efficient if used right.

Do not blame the GM first look at what you did wrong to let it happen.......

Exactly my point Kingmaker. When a spy becomes more efficient than an army the game changes. Not a wargame or a game of diplomacy. Simply a spy game.

Nice to read Richards post. Gives me confidence that route will be resisted.

jamesbond007 wrote:

Kingmaker wrote:As I said Spies have a big impact and if used right and not just to steal plans can cause real mayhem.  I have said this countless times over the years but no one really listens and instead has big armies every where. Spies are cheaper, more efficient if used right.

Do not blame the GM first look at what you did wrong to let it happen.......

Exactly my point Kingmaker. When a spy becomes more efficient than an army the game changes. Not a wargame or a game of diplomacy. Simply a spy game.

Nice to read Richards post. Gives me confidence that route will be resisted.

I think Richard's point is the game hasn't changed, and this wasn't and isn't the game. I certainly wouldn't depend upon a spy network if I had other options!

Paul,

sorry to see you go, been a pleasure having you in the games and on the forum. Please feel free to keep in touch here or on FB I am Terry Crook on there, from Scarborough.

Paul,

Best to you.  Sorry the game has frustrated you.  When life is challenging, it can be hard to cope with in-game frustrations. I just got re-employed 6 months ago after being out of work for a year and a half. Some days my turn would come in and I couldn't find the energy to event read it. The game became  work rather than pleasure. I stuck with  it because I knew that was me not the game.

I can't imagine how much more stressful it was to cope with your daughter.

Hopefully we will see you again.

Paul,
I play a small Baltic power in Game 8 and a large Central European one in Game 9. Interacted in those games on a regular basis. Can only say it was a pleasure, sorry to see you leave, but can fully appreciate your frustrations. Best wishes for the future.

Paul;

Thankyou for the time that you have spent playing with us all, it is always a good experience to meet & make new friends through the game, the flip side is naturally that it is sad when those people depart.

I wish you well in your future endevours, I hope our paths one day cross again.

Jason.

count-de-monet wrote:

Deacon wrote:
Sorry to hear your frustration.

The only thing I can say about game 8 is that having a really high EH has a pretty amazing impact upon your income!

Economic Health of 10, new investment of £2.2m (made in January).....trade position compared to last year ?.....MINUS £900k  Sometimes things happen in the game world that I simply do not understand.

Been thinking about this, and wondering if 2.2M isn't low? I would think most large positions invest many times this. I have no idea what england's general income is though in the early game.

EH isn't about trade, I don't think, that's what happens in country and drives the tax base growth or loss. I'd hope with an EH10 all year your taxes went up.

My habit has been in January to figure out my yearly spend, my new projects generally, a bit extra for whatever strikes my fancy for the year, then all the rest of the cash gets reinvested to ensure I have even more money for toys next year.

Not sure if you're still reading the boards or not...