Questions and Clarification

Jason2 wrote:Fair enough Stuart, like I say this period of Roman history isn't one I have anything like an expert knowledge though I would say being frugal and cutting back on expenditure in one area to throw cash at vanity projects wasn't exactly unknown then...or today

I must be honest, I tend to view most  historical scholarly works the Romans wrote themselves not as some sort of impartial record but more looking to a political agenda.   In this game, I am playing a Caledonian character who we only have one mention of in one record, giving a speech that feels more intended for a Roman audience than a native one...I would even go as far as saying I didn't really exist and am the invention of a Roman writer with an agenda...

...and on that note of existential doubt...

To be fair it may only be the one entry and from around 20 years after the game starts but it is a damn fine speech and who ever the Caledonii speach writer is he is clearly a class act. Will the Caledonii be able to keep up the same high standard in game?

In terms of actual evidence it seems that that the Caledonii were not one people/tribe but in 84 AD they united to try and repel the Roman Invasion unders Agricola under a leader or leaders one of whom may have been called Calgacus. Then afterwards they had a Righ or High King, very much on the Irish Model and indeed they seem to have had more language and cultural links with Hiberia than they did with the south.

Having the various tribes united in 65 AD and under the same high King as they had in 84 AD may be pushing it a bit. But the Caledonii were famous for the power of their Druids and various of their High Kings are reported to have reigned for over a hundred years (bit like some of the Old Jewish leaders in the early part of the Bible!).

So I think you have two possible options - Start calling yourself the Caledonii Confederation with the suggestion that after the Romans wiped out the Druids on the Isle on Mon the northern tribes are getting a bit annoyed and are giving some serious consideration to getting united. Then just treat Calgacus as a really common name amongst the Caledonii bit like Louis in the later French King List. The Romans can hardly moan......If you want to really baffle their most office just write Gaius or Marcus on a letter. Think some of their leading families used no more than three names in about 600 years.

Option No2 would be to get really Mythic - Have Calgacus as a Hero given power and extra life by the Celtic Gods after he captured and offered them a Roman Eagle (early version of other Celtic Hero's like CuChulain or Arthur). You could even follow the legend that as a young Druid Merlin survived the attack on Mon and advised Caractacus and Boudica before fleeing north were he spent many years honing his skills and knowledge.

You could then have Merlin (or at least a Druid called Merlin) as your chief advisor and speech writter. Which would help explain the high standard of Oratory and Speech writing.

Jason2 wrote:Fair enough Stuart, like I say this period of Roman history isn't one I have anything like an expert knowledge though I would say being frugal and cutting back on expenditure in one area to throw cash at vanity projects wasn't exactly unknown then...or today

I must be honest, I tend to view most  historical scholarly works the Romans wrote themselves not as some sort of impartial record but more looking to a political agenda.   In this game, I am playing a Caledonian character who we only have one mention of in one record, giving a speech that feels more intended for a Roman audience than a native one...I would even go as far as saying I didn't really exist and am the invention of a Roman writer with an agenda...

...and on that note of existential doubt...

Have just checked and in the totally impartial records my Character gets a really good right up in fact he become's a God and has cities named in his honour.

And now a proper historian is saying I may not be able to trust this 100% because many records date from when his son or some other relation was on the throne.

Still to quote from the Man who shot Liberty Valance......when the choose is to print the truth or the myth....print the myth every time!
After all this is a God you are talking about.

May just be so much click bait but what did the strange barbarian types in the far North (OK Jason) think about the claims being made for the
Tap 0'North site being Pict, having population of a town and at 17 acres being the largest Hill fort in the country?

Any chance of it being occupied in the 1st century AD?

Ref the.....Great "How to fund the rebuilding of Rome debate"....... ie Does your character as a good patriotic Roman dig deep into his own pocket and jack up taxes in his Province in the hope that his name goes up in marble as a great and good benefactor of the City rather than his head going up in a Druidic Groove.

Or does he urge the Emperor to follow the great and glorious tradition's of the Roman People from its very early days and if something is needed just pinch it from the neighbours! Rape of the Sabine Women in around year 5 because a small colony is a bit short of females or need a 100m Dinarri (after deduction of auctioners fee's, Army bonus payments, Triumph Costs) in year 818 to rebuild the smoking economic and political heart of the Empire? Its just a matter of scale.

Have just found out that Nero and the Army he actually used to block the rebel Gauls from Italy was intended for the East and Armenia/Parthia when it all kicked off.

I am starting to think the historic policy options of Nero might not have been Tax or loot but may have also included Tax & Loot.

Stuart Bailey wrote:May just be so much click bait but what did the strange barbarian types in the far North (OK Jason) think about the claims being made for the
Tap 0'North site being Pict, having population of a town and at 17 acres being the largest Hill fort in the country?

Any chance of it being occupied in the 1st century AD?

 

Sorry for the delay in commenting Stuart, as you might have guessed, not around much

Also, apols in advance if anyone feels I'm teaching them to suck eggs in the following...

Just to give a bit of background on the story, here's a link to the BBC report on the findings Stuart mentions https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-52660032 I should also say when working in Aberdeen's museums I knew the lead archaeologist (Gordon) on the wider project, which has been going on for quite a few years. It's linked in to a series of Pictish Stones found in the local area, including "Rhynie Man" https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/archaeologists-scotland-investigate-mystery-rhynie-man-003678 Infact it was the stones, and Rhynie Man in particular, that led archaeologists to look not only at Tap O Noth but the wider area. The stone was removed from Rhynie many years ago and is now on display (in a very boring way) in the headquarters of Aberdeenshire Council (which is in Aberdeen, technically not part of Aberdeenshire but Aberdeen City and so a different council area). A lot of locals want the stone back in the Rhynie area. When the archaeological work on Tap O Noth and the surrounds started back in 2011 there was no engagement between the locals and the archaeologists...that quickly changed however, both got involved with each other including the locals running a "pop up" cafe on-site for the archaeologists (Tap O Noth is quite isolated) as well as being volunteer diggers, and the archaeologists helping to organise and run community events (like the annual village cellidh). Again when working at Aberdeen, I worked alongside the exhibitions manager who lived in the village and was one of the community leaders in getting the community and archaeologists to work together (he was also called "Jason", which led to even more confusion than having two Jasons on his forum) while his wife not only helped the pop up cafe operate but has set up a local community initiative called "Rhynie Woman" that provides employment opportunities for locals who are isolated and can't (for various reasons) seek work in Aberdeen, etc.

It is a fascinating piece of work, archaeology wise. While there have been excavations and field-work in Southern Britain on hillfort sites that suggest similar levels of habitation (and dare I say "urbanisation") from just before the Roman invasion, this is the first time such a similar site of anything like this level of settlement has been found in Scotland (even if dating from a later period). It's also quite isolated, event today it's a hell of a trek from that part of Aberdeenshire into Aberdeen or any reasonable sized town. There's not really any navigable rivers nearby nor any historic trackways we've found nearby either, which you'd normally expect for a decent-sized settlement site in this period so there is more research to be done on why this proto-town (one way to describe it) is where it is.

The site does have a long history, with evidence of activity from the Neolithic onwards, including settlement but so far none of the archaeological evidence suggests more than small-scale (and high-status) settlement before the 3rd Century AD. I suppose there is always the chance that Tap O Noth is the site of "Devana" that Ptolemy calls a "city" is his mid-2nd Century work (instead of a settlement at the site of modern-day Aberdeen) but I think we would need more evidence of (say) Roman-related activity at the site-e.g. trade-before we could say that seriously.

At the moment I would say the evidence doesn't support anything like a settlement of 4,000 people being at Tap O Noth at the time of RIB but who knows, in a year or so, as they do more research on the site that might change. Of course, nothing to stop an anachronistic settlement appearing there in the game

It's worth noting that Gordon Noble was also the lead on the recent excavations near Stonehaven (to the east of Top O Noth, on the coast) that found a Pictish hillfort on a sea stack that overlaps timewise.

Thank you for the info on Pictish Hill Forts........probably not enough to say to Richard can I have my new Capital City here! But perhaps enough to say I should be able to build one.

Historically, the way a Roman Senator worked out that he was not in total disgrace but the Emperor really disliked his jokes, smelly feet, or had noticed him yawning half way through an Imperial speach was when he was appointed Procurator of Judea or somewhere on the east coast of the Black Sea.

However in RIB I suspect that being sent to Britannia/Hibernia is going to replace Judea.

Not only do you have to find a missing Eagle before the Druids cross it's spirit with a Haggii to produce the Gods knows what. But you also have to deal with unfriendly locals who object to wearing a Toga and paying taxes. Plus your only local "Ally" has already sold one ally down the river and betrayed her husband. I am saying she it not a charming young lady.......just make sure your slaves include a really good taster before going for drink's it what will become Yorkshire.

Glad you found the info interesting. It's timely there seems to be a lot of finds being made on the early Picts just as the game starts...

Oh, and whoever gets sent to Britannia doesn't need to worry about the Haggi doing things to their eagle, I've plans for it at this place... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_the_Eagles

Should have thrown the sacrificial ducks overboard. If they float on water, then....

Stuart Bailey wrote:We all know that for Roman Players polically this is going to be a "Russian Naval" game.....

Sorry Stuart but the importance of this reference escapes me. Could you explain Russian Naval gamr and how it applies here please?

Johntindall wrote:

Stuart Bailey wrote:We all know that for Roman Players polically this is going to be a "Russian Naval" game.....

Sorry Stuart but the importance of this reference escapes me. Could you explain Russian Naval gamr and how it applies here please?

On the forum, from Agema's 'The Glory of Kings' games the Russian navy is infamous across the board for not being able to leave port without dire mishaps, like sinking no where near an enemy etc, affecting them. So basically in Rome is Burning a Roman political chariot crash is coming I suspect.

"I nunc intellegite" (I get it now...!). Thank you!

Can someone please clarify if Procurators are subordinate to Legates (one source I read suggested that Procurators were historically accountable to Rome, not the local governor). And are Legates subordinate to Proconsuls?

Johntindall wrote:Can someone please clarify if Procurators are subordinate to Legates (one source I read suggested that Procurators were historically accountable to Rome, not the local governor). And are Legates subordinate to Proconsuls?

Think the answer to the above is "it depends" or "not directly" as Procurator covers a lot of civic position's - often to do with tax, mines and other sources of Imperial revenue or even as a Propraetor governorship of a settled non military provincem.

While a Legate is basically a military rank with a Legatus legionis being the commander of a legion and a legatus Augusti proparerore is in charge of one of the Military provinces of the Empire and may command many Legions.

As Legates or "representatives" directly appointed by the Emperor think its is fair to say that while they are in different chains of command a Legate clearly outranks a Procurator who should try to comply with any reasonable request to help the military. But what is reasonable may depend on place and circumstance!

Basically, if the local Legion needs money for food, horses, wages and other supplies etc to deal with a bunch of nasty Germans pouring across the border its clearly up to the local Procurator-Fiscal to provide. Though he may want a written, stamped and signed order from the Legate to explain to the treasury in Rome exactly were its taxes have gone.

Generally, if its reasonable a legate a man of importance and imperial appointtee demands will go through on the nod. But if the Emperor and Rome losses faith in the legate - and Procurator reports saying your tax returns are 150,000 denerii light because the Legate did XYZ and we are still waiting for the proper scroll - could do a lot of damage back in Rome. Then a Legate could find himself in a lot of trouble!

Think for most Legates in game their own Procurator in province is a trusted No2 but if you start trying to pull rank on other Procurator's it is not going to work and you will need to use influence to gain co-operation. You may be the commander of 6,000 armed men and the Procurator an annoying pen pusher with a bunch of clerks. But he got the job because he is the friend, family or client of someone really important. So pushing him to one side and over-riding a civil Magistrate may work, may even be required. But you better have a damn good reason or lots and lots of political clout.......being the son of the Emperor would be good.

A Proconsuls is a former consul which is the highest rank in the Empire (The Emperor is techically 1st Counsul of the Republic with the additional powers of a Dictator but for life rather than just the emergency) and normally he is sent somewhere with the authority of a counsul in that particular area. So yes a Proconsul outranks a legate by quite some way but this authority is limited to a particular area.

An additional problem with Roman offices and titles is how they would vary in importance over time. With titles like Tribunes and Censors becoming more and less important. I suspect that in 65 AD after the great fire some senator's with lesser ranks basically responsible for Street Cleaning and upkeep of Public Buildings/Grain supply etc suddenly became very important indeed.

Also the importance of an office often seems to have been a funtion of the man holding the office rather than the Office itself.

Apols for coming late to the forum..... game experience shows that if someone outside an official (and I include military folk) gives an order then the best response is "wait - out" and not "oh yes, I'd love to help you sir."

It has caused me a few headaches.

Regor wrote:Apols for coming late to the forum..... game experience shows that if someone outside an official (and I include military folk) gives an order then the best response is "wait - out" and not "oh yes, I'd love to help you sir."

It has caused me a few headaches.

I assumed that that getting Roman officials to act in RIB was all down having to use "influence" even fondly hoped that being a well respected ex Consul might give advantage over lesser office holders.

Then I encountered the departments in charge of re-building Rome and the Roman builders Guild!!

No wonder current plan seems to be to move everyone out and grass over the fire damage if my characters expience of trying to rebuild pasts of Rome is common experience. Only took 200,000 denerii and 8 months to give the Temple of Mars a small extension to take a statue and a coat of white wash to cover up the smoke damage.

And its not getting any clearer.....