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Kingmaker wrote:all good stuff
I hope so, surely i'm not getting bored
But everything seems so quiet in the north...wonder why?
+20
Thelittleemperor
Rozwi_Game10
jamesbond007
The Revenant
Ardagor
Bearlord
Nexus06
count-de-monet
The Hessian
mmcdhoward
Regor
MarkTurner26
J Flower
Goldstar
Kingmaker
Basileus
one grain of grain
Stuart Bailey
Deacon
Redtroop44
24 posters
The Age of Enlightenment. Game 9.
Nexus06- Prince
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I hope so, surely i'm not getting bored
But everything seems so quiet in the north...wonder why?
Nexus06- Prince
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Life sucks!
The Revenant- Prince
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Something went wrong?
Nexus06- Prince
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jimbotten wrote:Something went wrong?
can't manage to make my Honor score go up, i'm getting quite frustrated.
Build churces, nope
Build Accademy, nope
Save a religious fracture in the stardom, lose points
create theatre for Nobles Pleasure, lose points
military parare, nope
Honestly is not a good period for me both at home and at work, and i was hoping that at least here things would get better.
well, will try harder
jamesbond007- King
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Nexus06 wrote:jimbotten wrote:Something went wrong?
can't manage to make my Honor score go up, i'm getting quite frustrated.
Build churces, nope
Build Accademy, nope
Save a religious fracture in the stardom, lose points
create theatre for Nobles Pleasure, lose points
military parare, nope
Honestly is not a good period for me both at home and at work, and i was hoping that at least here things would get better.
well, will try harder
Agree with you. In a game of lgdr I have recently taken in battle 5 towns. Gained thousands of recruits, much more tax and income. Yet I was not given one honour point. I am thinking this is now a political building game, rather than a war game. How can you not get honour points for taking towns in battle.?
Have Agema heard of Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great.?
Kingmaker- Admin
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What country?
jamesbond007- King
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Moghul game 8.
Deacon- Emperor
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Honour is always tough. Losses and gains can seem inexplicable at times, and I think that is partly Richard's intention. He doesn't want the path to higher honour to be obvious.
My personal view is that honour can only go up a bit each turn and that you need a long term strategy, not quick fixes. Regular banquets and church building is a good baseline, but it will take game years to build up.
Also, I think the larger the position and the higher the current honour, the lower the effect of honour raising tactics. You have to do a fair number of them just to hold steady. And larger positions, with larger treasuries, are expected to do more. That's why focused smaller positions can often outstrip the larger in honour.
Taking over someone seems to be a mixed bag. Many conquests seem to yeild nothing, but I recall Kingmaker telling me when Russia in game 3 'liberated' constantinople it was an enormous burst of honour.
Kingmaker- Admin
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oh yes getting back a holy Orthodox city was a good boost, plus when I started getting all the Orthodox stuff back in place etc and the real Horses from Venice, for a large sum of money, honor went quite high! 
Guest- Guest
Honour is an interesting part of the game and I agree with Deacon, Richard I am sure keeps it mysterious to keep us all guessing
I wonder Nexus, if its a case of not yet finding the right sort of thing to improve your honour? For example, in China parades, banquets, religious buildings-doing, building or hosting those won't increase your honour, the only thing that does is honouring the Emperor...and that is best done by sending him gifts. Of course, even then it's not simple as not every gift adds to your honour, for example if you send him something that someone else has already sent him then it doesn't benefit your honour...nor if he doesn't like the gift!
Silly question, you have been opening the right sort of 'churches'?
I wonder Nexus, if its a case of not yet finding the right sort of thing to improve your honour? For example, in China parades, banquets, religious buildings-doing, building or hosting those won't increase your honour, the only thing that does is honouring the Emperor...and that is best done by sending him gifts. Of course, even then it's not simple as not every gift adds to your honour, for example if you send him something that someone else has already sent him then it doesn't benefit your honour...nor if he doesn't like the gift!
Silly question, you have been opening the right sort of 'churches'?
Deacon- Emperor
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Richard does say he'll ding you for complaining about honour, but I think it's completely legitimate to ask trusted councilors what you could do to improve your standings in the people's eyes. I'd make sure to phrase it in-character and appropriately. It may be that there's something about the position that you're not 'getting' in terms of what's expected of you. Maybe there's something you're not doing that you should be doing.
Nexus06- Prince
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I think you guys are all right.
As most of you know i play a lare ortodox nation but i'am do trying to innovate, modernize but keeping the respect of the orthodox tradition. It is probably true that a major impact must be brought into the game, i might be still too isolate in foreign activities. (But, honestly saying, after Saxony-Poland quitted the game, also Sweden seems to be quite silent in the last turns, it seems to me that we are very few players in this game).
As i said, what Peter did when he didn't succeed was trying harder. I'll follow his path.
As most of you know i play a lare ortodox nation
but i'am do trying to innovate, modernize but keeping the respect of the orthodox tradition. It is probably true that a major impact must be brought into the game, i might be still too isolate in foreign activities. (But, honestly saying, after Saxony-Poland quitted the game, also Sweden seems to be quite silent in the last turns, it seems to me that we are very few players in this game).As i said, what Peter did when he didn't succeed was trying harder. I'll follow his path.
Bearlord- Lord
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I play in this game as well and I have been quite lucky with the Honour score so far but sometimes you don't get it when you expect it and then you can get a boost retroactively or when some underlying effect kicks in. I recieved 4 points in one turn at one time, not all them came from actions I did in that turn.
As some has said here already I think there are different ways to improve Honour for different postions. For me as a Catholic with absolute power, showing and supporting faith in public, hosting banquets and supporting culture and science seem to have worked quite well. Also developing the army, trade and the economy as a whole and reporting it back to the nobility I think may have helped.
Hold on to it Nexus. We need you in this game. I think interesting things will develop for the game in the coming months.
As some has said here already I think there are different ways to improve Honour for different postions. For me as a Catholic with absolute power, showing and supporting faith in public, hosting banquets and supporting culture and science seem to have worked quite well. Also developing the army, trade and the economy as a whole and reporting it back to the nobility I think may have helped.
Hold on to it Nexus. We need you in this game. I think interesting things will develop for the game in the coming months.
Kingmaker- Admin
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remember honor is not the masses, BUT what the nobles church etc think of you. Try putting up nobles taxes and watch it plummet, do the same for the common people and not a dickie bird....
Deacon- Emperor
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Kingmaker wrote:remember honor is not the masses, BUT what the nobles church etc think of you. Try putting up nobles taxes and watch it plummet, do the same for the common people and not a dickie bird....
I think Honour is a combination of nobles, church, and commoners, but I do agree the lion's share is what your nobles think.
Stuart Bailey- Emperor of Europe
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[quote="jamesbond007"]
My experience of playing a Muslim position like Moghul India is that you only gain "honour" for beating up unbelievers and you lose it by fighting fellow believers esp if they are from a close or related position.
So for Moghul Nobles fighting Afghans is basically a civil war with relatives and even a victory is not going to be popular. But the same scale of victory over Hindu foes will gain lots of honour points.
With Rumelia in G2 (like Moghuls - Muslim Nobles, but most of population not muslim) years of wageing Jihad against historic foes like Venice, Habsburgs, Poles etc got honour score up to 50 plus.
Then the sodding Janissary Corp stabbed me in the back.......ended up taking control of Anatolia, Egypt, Syria and drove the Persians back but my the time I broke the Janissary Corp had lost 30 honour points!
Still think this was harsh since they started it and they allied to the Persian Heretics. But some times you just have to grit your teeth and take the pain. Just because your Nobles do not like something......like wiping out treachous, double dealing Afghans and Janissary types does not mean its wrong!
Nexus06 wrote:jimbotten wrote:Something went wrong?
can't manage to make my Honor score go up, i'm getting quite frustrated.
Agree with you. In a game of lgdr I have recently taken in battle 5 towns. Gained thousands of recruits, much more tax and income. Yet I was not given one honour point. I am thinking this is now a political building game, rather than a war game. How can you not get honour points for taking towns in battle.?
Have Agema heard of Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great.?
My experience of playing a Muslim position like Moghul India is that you only gain "honour" for beating up unbelievers and you lose it by fighting fellow believers esp if they are from a close or related position.
So for Moghul Nobles fighting Afghans is basically a civil war with relatives and even a victory is not going to be popular. But the same scale of victory over Hindu foes will gain lots of honour points.
With Rumelia in G2 (like Moghuls - Muslim Nobles, but most of population not muslim) years of wageing Jihad against historic foes like Venice, Habsburgs, Poles etc got honour score up to 50 plus.
Then the sodding Janissary Corp stabbed me in the back.......ended up taking control of Anatolia, Egypt, Syria and drove the Persians back but my the time I broke the Janissary Corp had lost 30 honour points!
Still think this was harsh since they started it and they allied to the Persian Heretics. But some times you just have to grit your teeth and take the pain. Just because your Nobles do not like something......like wiping out treachous, double dealing Afghans and Janissary types does not mean its wrong!
Deacon- Emperor
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Agree wholeheartedly.
If you're convinced it's the right course, then go for it.
Do everything you can to raise honour, but understand it's a losing battle until you're past the change and that your honour raising actions are just triage to help limit the damage as you remake the position.
jamesbond007- King
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Stuart Bailey wrote:jamesbond007 wrote:Nexus06 wrote:jimbotten wrote:Something went wrong?
can't manage to make my Honor score go up, i'm getting quite frustrated.
Agree with you. In a game of lgdr I have recently taken in battle 5 towns. Gained thousands of recruits, much more tax and income. Yet I was not given one honour point. I am thinking this is now a political building game, rather than a war game. How can you not get honour points for taking towns in battle.?
Have Agema heard of Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great.?
My experience of playing a Muslim position like Moghul India is that you only gain "honour" for beating up unbelievers and you lose it by fighting fellow believers esp if they are from a close or related position.
So for Moghul Nobles fighting Afghans is basically a civil war with relatives and even a victory is not going to be popular. But the same scale of victory over Hindu foes will gain lots of honour points.
With Rumelia in G2 (like Moghuls - Muslim Nobles, but most of population not muslim) years of wageing Jihad against historic foes like Venice, Habsburgs, Poles etc got honour score up to 50 plus.
Then the sodding Janissary Corp stabbed me in the back.......ended up taking control of Anatolia, Egypt, Syria and drove the Persians back but my the time I broke the Janissary Corp had lost 30 honour points!
Still think this was harsh since they started it and they allied to the Persian Heretics. But some times you just have to grit your teeth and take the pain. Just because your Nobles do not like something......like wiping out treachous, double dealing Afghans and Janissary types does not mean its wrong!
Trouble is. You go after Hindu foes and you upset your own massess. As the majority of Moghuls are Hindu. So you lose your popular support that way. Just seems as though if you play the game as a war game it's very difficult to succeed either way.
Stuart Bailey- Emperor of Europe
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[quote="jamesbond007"][quote="Stuart Bailey"][quote="jamesbond007"]
So if I understand correctly the problem with playing Mogul India is:
a) If you attack fellow Muslims this upsets your Muslim Nobles and your honour goes down.
b) If you attack European Christains this ruins trade and your economic health goes down.
c) If you attack Hindu's this upsets your Rajput Nobles & the masses and your honour goes down.
So unless you want to be really unpopular and spend all your time crushing revolts the only way to play the Great Moghul is as a really nice guy who spends his time hunting and acting as a Patron of the Arts.
Have you considered beating up Sikhs (viewed as Heretics by everyone) and Buddists?
It also helps if you establish a proper cause before you attack someone........surely the Moghul Propaganda Machine has something to say about:
Mitha = Bandits, Pirates, etc
Kabul = Timurid home land.......needs to be liberated from the oppressive yoke of Uzbeck bandits so Noble Moghul Ladies can visit the tombs of their forefathers withut being robbed and outraged!
Persians = Not muslim brothers! But nasty horrible shia heretics who oppress Sufi Saints and Sunni brothers.
I find it helps if you write your Propaganda like you really believe it and dont hold back.......no matter how extreme your attacks on someone you can always find a historic example from the period which is more extreme.
Nexus06 wrote:jimbotten wrote:Something went wrong?
Trouble is. You go after Hindu foes and you upset your own massess. As the majority of Moghuls are Hindu. So you lose your popular support that way. Just seems as though if you play the game as a war game it's very difficult to succeed either way.
So if I understand correctly the problem with playing Mogul India is:
a) If you attack fellow Muslims this upsets your Muslim Nobles and your honour goes down.
b) If you attack European Christains this ruins trade and your economic health goes down.
c) If you attack Hindu's this upsets your Rajput Nobles & the masses and your honour goes down.
So unless you want to be really unpopular and spend all your time crushing revolts the only way to play the Great Moghul is as a really nice guy who spends his time hunting and acting as a Patron of the Arts.
Have you considered beating up Sikhs (viewed as Heretics by everyone) and Buddists?
It also helps if you establish a proper cause before you attack someone........surely the Moghul Propaganda Machine has something to say about:
Mitha = Bandits, Pirates, etc
Kabul = Timurid home land.......needs to be liberated from the oppressive yoke of Uzbeck bandits so Noble Moghul Ladies can visit the tombs of their forefathers withut being robbed and outraged!
Persians = Not muslim brothers! But nasty horrible shia heretics who oppress Sufi Saints and Sunni brothers.
I find it helps if you write your Propaganda like you really believe it and dont hold back.......no matter how extreme your attacks on someone you can always find a historic example from the period which is more extreme.
Deacon- Emperor
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I think sometimes players bring too much modern sensibility to the game. I can't fault them because some things during the period are pretty horrific.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#In_the_Mughal_empire
Islam denotes that polytheism is pretty much the worst sin that exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)
So while The Moghul may rule over Hindus, what the Hindus think of you should mean pretty much zero to you. They're incredible sinners. Moghul rulers regularly razed their temples and put them down.
I think this is one of the positions where the opinion of the common hindu is going to mean nothing to your honour rating unless you're too soft on them, in which case your fellow muslims will look down on you.
To be fair, there is also other evidence of rapprochement between the two cultures, so taking a friendlier tone isn't outside the realm of reason. But I think this fundamental theological point is hard to miss if you're really going to play your faith.
So I don't think I'd agree with the "you lose honour whatever you do." I'd suggest instead that unless you're doing something that brings honour to all of your nobles, they don't care. Invading a neighbor that hasn't insulted you enriches the moghul emperor, but what does it matter to his nobles? Make it about defending the nation's honour or bringing the true faith and it might matter more to them.
I also think your nobles may take more of a wait and see approach. The honour for these victories may show up a year later when you've really consolidated the gains..
My take anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#In_the_Mughal_empire
Islam denotes that polytheism is pretty much the worst sin that exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)
So while The Moghul may rule over Hindus, what the Hindus think of you should mean pretty much zero to you. They're incredible sinners. Moghul rulers regularly razed their temples and put them down.
I think this is one of the positions where the opinion of the common hindu is going to mean nothing to your honour rating unless you're too soft on them, in which case your fellow muslims will look down on you.
To be fair, there is also other evidence of rapprochement between the two cultures, so taking a friendlier tone isn't outside the realm of reason. But I think this fundamental theological point is hard to miss if you're really going to play your faith.
So I don't think I'd agree with the "you lose honour whatever you do." I'd suggest instead that unless you're doing something that brings honour to all of your nobles, they don't care. Invading a neighbor that hasn't insulted you enriches the moghul emperor, but what does it matter to his nobles? Make it about defending the nation's honour or bringing the true faith and it might matter more to them.
I also think your nobles may take more of a wait and see approach. The honour for these victories may show up a year later when you've really consolidated the gains..
My take anyway.
Basileus- Prince
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For my two penny worth - I did a bit of research on the Moghuls as I thought that I was going to play them at one time in game 10. My advice to raise their honour would be around promoting Persian art and architecture. Seems strange, but the Moghuls used this to gain support in their diverse terrotories and the Indian nobilty really appreciated it. Think of the Taj Mahal amd Indian palaces.
To improve the honour of Russia, the Russian people are very backward and superstitious in 1700, so play to that. A Russian Tsar in 1700 in the game would be far better seen worshipping at icons in the churches than building theatres for the nobility, remember, these are Boyars not the educated nobility of western Europe. There is no point in building a theatre if you havent got a theatre company to put on plays, and plays translated into Russian for them to watch. (Sweden is still in game 9 and about to attack within the HRE)
To improve the honour of Russia, the Russian people are very backward and superstitious in 1700, so play to that. A Russian Tsar in 1700 in the game would be far better seen worshipping at icons in the churches than building theatres for the nobility, remember, these are Boyars not the educated nobility of western Europe. There is no point in building a theatre if you havent got a theatre company to put on plays, and plays translated into Russian for them to watch. (Sweden is still in game 9 and about to attack within the HRE)
jamesbond007- King
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[quote="Deacon"]I think sometimes players bring too much modern sensibility to the game. I can't fault them because some things during the period are pretty horrific.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#In_the_Mughal_empire
Islam denotes that polytheism is pretty much the worst sin that exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)
So while The Moghul may rule over Hindus, what the Hindus think of you should mean pretty much zero to you. They're incredible sinners. Moghul rulers regularly razed their temples and put them down.
I think this is one of the positions where the opinion of the common hindu is going to mean nothing to your honour rating unless you're too soft on them, in which case your fellow muslims will look down on you.
You have to be very careful with the Hindu massess. They outnumber Moghul Muslims massively. So while they are nothing to your honour. If you ride roughshot over them. You risk an uprising. Like you said. " Moghul rulers razed their temples and put them down." That result being the Moghuls faded into oblivion and never reached the power they could easily have attained.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#In_the_Mughal_empire
Islam denotes that polytheism is pretty much the worst sin that exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)
So while The Moghul may rule over Hindus, what the Hindus think of you should mean pretty much zero to you. They're incredible sinners. Moghul rulers regularly razed their temples and put them down.
I think this is one of the positions where the opinion of the common hindu is going to mean nothing to your honour rating unless you're too soft on them, in which case your fellow muslims will look down on you.
You have to be very careful with the Hindu massess. They outnumber Moghul Muslims massively. So while they are nothing to your honour. If you ride roughshot over them. You risk an uprising. Like you said. " Moghul rulers razed their temples and put them down." That result being the Moghuls faded into oblivion and never reached the power they could easily have attained.
Last edited by jamesbond007 on Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:34 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wrong insertion.)
Nexus06- Prince
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Basileus wrote:
To improve the honour of Russia, the Russian people are very backward and superstitious in 1700, so play to that. A Russian Tsar in 1700 in the game would be far better seen worshipping at icons in the churches than building theatres for the nobility, remember, these are Boyars not the educated nobility of western Europe. There is no point in building a theatre if you havent got a theatre company to put on plays, and plays translated into Russian for them to watch. (Sweden is still in game 9 and about to attack within the HRE)
That's a good hint surely. My vision of Peter is still not complete as he was a western man with an eastern cultural ground. Happy to see you didn't quit.
Kingmaker- Admin
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Also going down to docks to help shipwrights, and other stuff will improve he was a very practical man wanting to know how stuff worked and was not afraid to get his hands dirty
Nexus06- Prince
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Kingmaker wrote:Also going down to docks to help shipwrights, and other stuff will improve he was a very practical man wanting to know how stuff worked and was not afraid to get his hands dirty
True!
Anyway, i like this thread is getting alive, i don't want game 10 and 7 get's all the attention
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