What I Think Honour Is

I remember Honour being used to control military units each turn was still being used in version five of La Gloire du Roi.

But I believe it was dropped at around the time new campaigning rules were introduced, which then evolved into the Sick Lists used in the current version. I think it was around the time limited Military Change Orders were dropped from play, when Honour was stopped being used to control active forces.

I never played using version 6 of the rules, but I believe they were Sick Lists and Honour wasn't tied into the military. I then stopped playing PBMs for a period. When I came back it was version 7 The Glory of Kings, as played now.

I have noticed that you can have high honour, SL #0, General Staff, fully in supply etc, etc and still suffer fleets sinking, mutiney and general screw up.

These days I just rest/repair as many troops & ships as possible, refuse to put to sea in Jan, Feb or March or on Russian ships and work on the basis that if something can screw up it probably will do...........if Richard no longer gives reasons why half you troops sit around doing nothing its just to save players the worry of trying to stop something which is going to happen away.

The fun then comes in how to put a positive spin on your latest disaster

I am not keen on a military league table .If you want to know how many cannon or units a nation has you need a wily Ambassador or a clever spy or a boat counting ships in and ships out that kind of thing . Of course said Ambassador may choose to make his research into a number of positions public or to the highest bidder .

I fully understand you not wanting to see Military league tables, your absolutely right it would diminish role of spies & Ambassadors. I suggested it as an idea of ways for players to judge & compare themselves in game.

Probably part of the problem with honour is our own competitive human nature, we are all spending money & we all want to see results for that. One of them is the honour table, it gives us a way of comparison with other players, possibly we all pay too much attention to Honour, after all somewhere in the rule book there is a phrase that says something like" Each player sets their own goals, be it the richest trading nation, the most powerful military, most........." So there are lots of targets to aim for just that we only have one official list to check.

We all know France has the most powerful army, England the most powerful navy( Even if this changes in game, we have read it in the history books so it must be true.)

Maybe just ignore the honour table for a bit ,yes it is nice to be on it but unless it is having a serious impact on your position don't worry about it too much.

That said, I don't think it has much to do with Command & Control any more, but it may have influence with how you are seen by NPC positions when you are attempting to negotiate with them,but maybe some one can expand on my thoughts on this point as I am not 100% sure about that.

If Herr Watts is reading through this thread, maybe he can give a degree of clarification as to the role it all has in game.

J Flower wrote:That said, I don't think it has much to do with Command & Control any more, but it may have influence with how you are seen by NPC positions when you are attempting to negotiate with them,but  maybe some one can expand on my thoughts on this point as I am not 100% sure about that.

Here's my recent experiences with NPC nations. [I'm not really hampering myself, too much, as Rozwi at this time is outside the spectrum of most players gaming]

Rozwi's Honour was 12 to 13 at the time. According to the rules, if you've reached the giddy heights of 10+ you're looked upon favourably.

NPC Nation: Nguni (Zulus, basically)
Target Aim: friendly overtures - we won't invade you, if you won't invade us.
Outcome: ignored. completely.

NPC Nation: Tonga
Target Aim: friendly overtures - better trade taxes - political marriage
Outcome: happy to trade, here's what we sell - happy to lower taxes, in receipt of you doing likewise - happy to allow royal marriage
[all the above was mentioned in the newspaper, so it isn't secret]

Now the population sizes of both nations may also play a part in the dealings. The Nguni has a larger population, and therefor a good-sized military. The Tonga are only listed as having 30,000 souls, and Rozwi's army alone can far outstrip that figure. I can't help but wonder if Rozwi's military reputation has influenced Tonga's decision to be friends.

J Flower wrote:somewhere in the rule book there is a phrase that says something like" Each player sets their own goals, be it the richest trading nation, the most powerful military, most........." So there are lots of targets to aim for just that we only have one official list to check.

& Honour "may have influence with how you are seen by NPC positions when you are attempting to negotiate with them,but  maybe some one can expand on my thoughts on this point as I am not 100% sure about that."

I suspect some of Jason doubt about Honour & ability to influence NPC's may reflect playing a hugely honoured (as in scores in the 30's or 40's perhaps higher) King of Prussia who later became a Holy Roman Emperor who then could not influence the remaining Princes of the Empire to accept even such harmless and benefical proposals such as upgrading roads, canals & universal education across the HRE - paid for by the Emperor.

I think Prussian problems reflects the section in the rules which implies that the stronger a position the more difficult it becomes to get NPC's to do anything. Certainly in a later game when I ran took over Phalz for a time and somehow got Elected Emperor with a crazy honour score and huge amounts of cash for the size of the position but no history of taking over the neighbours I did not run into this type of total rejection.

Clearly if you want to be a greatly loved and rsespected Emperor viewed as the Father of German Nation it helps to be a Cato type rather than a Julius Ceasar type with 250,000 troops at ones back who already owns half of the Empire. As well as not being too strong I wonder if how you gained your honour and your characters history has a influence?

So if you are running a King of Prussia who is hugely honoured by his own Junkers for building up the Prussian War Machine, annexing them lots of new estates in Saxony etc, smashing the Hapsburg's, who has a history of calling the Pope the anti Christ and being rude about proposal's that he should join Christain campaigns against the Ottomans..........your glorious reputation amongst Protestant Junkers may actually be a disadvantage in some other quarters like Western German Catholic Bishop-Princes?

Perhaps what matters in some area's of diplomacy is not so much your glorious reputation but what that reputation is for? I understand that leading NPC's have reputations and character traits stored against them.........perhaps we all need to send Richard a data protection notice and demand to know what has been recorded against some of our Player Characters? Are your characters youthfull high spirits and exploration of Turkish Terror tactics (they dont work and give you plague) still held against him years later? And if you are playing a important Historical Character like Louis XIV are pre-game events like the Rape of the UDP & the Palantine & revoking the Edict of Nantes held against you as well?

If they are.......oh boy has anyone playing Aurangzeb of Malwa (The Great Moghul) got inherited trust issues. I mean are non Muslim Indian Princes going to trust someone who overthrew his own father, murdered his own brother(s) and has spent the last 50 years generally slaughtering non Muslims for various reasons.

PS Ref Objectives for non state "Pirate" positions has anyone kept score concerning the number of Prizes thay have taken? And what the top score is likely to be?