ROME PBM

I am interested in this game but know zilch about Ancient Rome and this period in general....well except for the existence of the People's Front of Judea....or is it the Judean People's Front ? The above run down of potential characters is most of all fun, but interesting and giving me some names to "google" (thanks Stuart).

Is time for Rome is Burning to have its own section so several threads, grouped in one place can be started ? I know some of you guys are really knowledgeable on this period and would like to tap into that before positions are assigned, the game starts and people start to get slightly defensive about revealing all their aces.

@ Stuart (& all).

- Licinius Mucianus Gov of Syria, noted for sleeping with anyone and his current allies King Agrippa of Judea and his sister Queen Berenice. Lininius is currently trying to keep an eye of the Parthians and cush a revolt in Judea (and spreading) lead by one Simon son of Gioras.
But for reasons unknown it seems that Rome does not think the Parthians are as scared of him as they were of Corbulo who he is not up to sorting out a few rebel Jews so the powers that be in Rome have sent him a broken down old veteran of the British Campaign and three extra Legions to help him in his campaign.

Key data point for potential Eastern Governors is that several Legions had their morale & fighting capabilities tonked during the 63 AD campaign. Paetus seriously dropped the ball in Armenia, and only the presence of Corbulo in Syria saved the situation. Paetus managed to get his army split up, and besieged in multiple emergency camps (Campaign or Battle of Rhandeia). Tacitus believed that the Armenian Legions were made to ‘walk under the yoke’, a massive humiliation that destroyed the morale & reputations on the forces involved in the defeat for decades.
As a result, I would expect units such as IIII Scythica & XII Fulminata to be barely effective, along with part of III Gallica & multiple Alae & Cohorts.
It is one of the reasons there are (at game inception) so many fresh units in the East.
Only Corbulo’s reputation persuaded the Parthians to sign peace.
I am working from memory, but Corbulo is dead or on the road to execution in 65 AD...

Parthia is in a good place strategically & militarily.
Roman puppet in Armenia is barely in control and the Parthian puppet is active.

Rome has some idiot governors & several tonked Roman Legions, coupled with several elite Legions just off the ships.
Judaea about to go into one of the most serious & persistent rebellions in the early Empire.

That said, the East is hands down the richest & most developed part of the Empire. That never changes. Bulk of our ancestors (assuming mainly Western European descent players) were still being taught sh*ting where you eat is not a good idea. Not a great economic baseline...

But, it all goes down to timeline. My instinct is this is a game that will go gangster very rapidly. 65 - 71 was one of the most disruptive periods in early Empire, arguably the worst between the defeat of Anthony & the Third Century ‘Crisis’.

69 is the Year of the Four Emperors. Getting a laurel wreath is not the challenge, it’s keeping it. I forecast a game of serious betrayal, with only a coalition able to win. Vespasian’s key to victory was not his forces in the East, because their balls were on the proverbial holding the Eastern Limes & fighting a brutal war in Judea. The Moesian Legions went for Vespasian, just as his predecessor broke his promises to to the Rhine Legions. Timing, as in everything, is crucial. You will need to choose the right time to betray, to be loyal, to reward, to threaten. Not just with human players, but the guys on your asset list. Romans (in the broad 1st Century sense) did not tend to follow anything other than power or success.

The above is from memory, so you can double confirm, but I am fairly sure it is solid. My BA & MA was in Classics (Ancient History) @ Kings College London. My Masters paper was on the Roman Strategy for defending the Eastern Limes (Frontier) from Augustus to Constantine.

I am a little rusty & how much use that will be in the game, only time will tell.

many thanks to Kerensky too. I cant get enough of this sort of stuff, and I emphasis again with the hint of personality flaws and quirks of the historical figures. Makes the potential for some role-playing into the game too. Please continue to share !

How players play the game is up to them and they may well decide to bring in elements of earlier and later civil wars or even totally new things but broadly speaking players may like to use the following as a base:

A) Glori and the Roman game both start with a succession crisis the difference is the Spanish Succession crisis is a dispute between rival claims with serious backing from other states. While in 69 AD the Julio-Claudian family which over the last hundred years has created the Empire in its current form, crushed all its rivals both internal and external has finally murdered and posioned itself out of existance and liturally not even a strange old Uncle hidden behind a curtain can be found.

- Players may consider three possible options (only one of which was considered Historically)

i) Restore the Republic...........historically not really considered because much of the Empire expected a "King" and the Legions expected to get a bonus when the new Emperor was declared and tended to get very unhappy when they did not get it.

ii) Find a lost Julio-Claudian heir.........problem is the Senate is only 600 strong and every who matters knows and lives a few streets away from each other. If you suddenly claim to have found "Britannicus" (son of Emperor Claudius) or any other lost heir you may have problems with all the people who attended their funerals.

iii) The historic option is to find a new Emperor which is a bit of a problem in that the rules are not at all clear for non Julio-Claudian's and in theory the Empire is still belongs to the Roman Republic or to be exact "The Senate and People of Rome."

- While the Roman Plebs/Mob should not be ignored its probably best to think of the Roman Army as the People so if you want to become Emperor (technically holding the powers of a Roman Republican Dictator......but for life rather than a year or for the period of the crisis.....plus a few extra added by Augustus etc) the correct process would seem to be: Get the Army to acclaim you, then get the Senate to rubber stamp it and vote you all honors and positions held by Augustus and his heirs.

- Not being a member of the Julio-Claudian family is a bit of a disadvantage but in theory any Roman Senator can hold the posts which Augustus and his heirs have held and shaped for the last hundred years or so. A player who is not a Roman Senator could make a bid but the Senatorial Families provide all the senior commanders of the Legions and will object most strongly!

Other points to keep in mind

B) This is not a territorial dispute ie Eastern Empire V Western Empire or Spain V Germany. In the first century AD the Legions.......which are about 50% of the Army and provide its Heavy Infantry, Artillery, Engineers and High Command are all Roman Citizens and the vast majority are from Italy while their Senior officers are from Senatorial families so if you are thinking about grabbing a nice little Kingdom (say Egypt) recall that you and your officers have family, property, wealth at home and view "exile" as a terrible disgrace!

The other 50% of the 1st century AD Roman Army is made up of Roman trained and equiped Auxiliaries who become Roman Citizen's when their period of service ends and are often stationed a long way from Home area's.

c) In the 1st Century AD the Roman Army and the Logistic back up provided by the Empire makes it an Super Power. Its only rival in terms of man power, money etc would be the Han Dynasty in China but in 69AD Corbulo has been executed and the Army is very lacking in the big Charismatic commanders of prior ages like Sulla, Marius, Julius Caesar, Anthony etc who it could get wildly keen about. Partly because the last thing the Emperors and their ministers wanted was the mob and the Army thinking a "Hero" should be in charge.

In many ways the Roman Army was designed to suffer defeats in the field (in thory it always had a fortified camp ready to retreat into) and be commanded by political appointees of low to average military ability. It was not only the units stationed in the east which suffered humiliations and the odd disaster in this period. The Rhine Legions lost their flagship and almost their general to a surprize German attack while in Britannia only a few years before the Governor had been caught in North Wales while Londinium and most of the province went up in flames behind him and he and his Cavalry got ambushed and badly cut up failing to save it.

But at the end of the day in Britannia the Legions meet odds of ten to one in favour of the rebels and butchered them when the fighting got close and personal. While in Judea the Roman Army reduced the massive fortifications of Masada etc.

In the open the Cavalry Armies of the Parthians were deadly foes for the Romans but they could not take and hold Roman territory, mostly because their lacked the man power and siege warfare skills to reduce the key cities of the Middle East. Plus they had internal problems and problems with the Kushans and central Asian Nomads. Its a pity so much of our information on Parthia comes from Roman and Greek sources and does not really cover what is going on in central Asia. But one clearly gets the feeling that for most of its History the Parthian Kings and leaders wanted to come to an agreement with Rome so they could deal with other matters.

Only to suffer repeated attacks from Roman Generals who fancied themselves as the new Alexander and wanted to win a great reputation as a military hero...............probably a valid tactic in this game for any would be Emperor.

C) Ref personality flaws and quirks players may like to use to insult their rivals (Note this is pure forum gossip collected by writers who would not be out of place writing for the Sun or Private Eye):

- Vespasian....son of a tax collector, reputation as being mean, a Sabine rather than a proper Roman, lives with his mistress an ex-slave.

- Otha........A pimp for Nero, used a wig to cover up fact he was bold, considered to be vain and a bit daft.

- Galba........very old, homosexual, can be viewed as a inbred aristocrat.

- Aulus Vitellius......drunkard and glutton like the troops he commands have a reputation as a nasty bit of work. In his youth "entertained" Tiberius in debauchery on Capri and raced Chariots with Caligula.

- King Agrippa......shifty bunch of ringlets on the make, believed to sleep with his sister. Sister in best tradition of Cleopatra also sleeps with Roman Generals as well as her brother.

- Lininius Mucianus........Like Sulla, Julius Caesar and Mark Anthony a natural Orator who sleeps with anyone and anything! But has has not yet shown their military ability and is viewed as a bit dodgy. Not a man to buy a used Chariot from! sleeps with anything

Compared to this bunch of relic's from the regimes of Tiberius, Caligula and Nero I think Jason Flower's Germans are starting to look good - even if they are a bunch of deserters and barbarians who conduct odd rites in Dark German Forests!

Still say Richard should have gone for a earlier period with proper Hero's!

"Compared to this bunch of relic's from the regimes of Tiberius, Caligula and Nero I think Jason Flower's Germans are starting to look good - even if they are a bunch of deserters and barbarians who conduct odd rites in Dark German Forests!"

No one has made mention of the Sacrificial goats yet, If I get the Tribes of Germanica then there is going to be some serious goat rustling to sort out on the West side of the Rhine.

Armenius leading , the Chatti and the Bructeri tribes in 9 AD certainly left a mark on Rome. Wonder if the Romans are afraid of the Gods of the Teutonberger Wald. Three legions were lost there & the numbers were never re-used despite other legions being raised afterwards 17th, 18th & 19th All lost their eagles & were never re-founded.
Little to Early for the period in question but maybe still haunts the Rome s on the West side of the Rhine.
 

Think the main force of Germans who may distract the Rhine Legions with their goat rustling and strange rites in German forests in AD 69 were provided by Civilis Batavians allied with Chatti, Usipi and Mattiaci.

Strictly speaking they should be lead by a big man with one eye, dressed as a Roman General but with long red hair...........why do I think someone has to come out with the quote "That is fighting talk for a one eyed fat man!" Sadly nothing seems to be known about his position on goats.

The other somewhat Germanic group which could be involved in the game to give the Danube Legions something to think about would be the Dacian Kingdom. The first serius Roman attack on Dacia was not to 85 AD and failed badly but the Kingdom, raiding south of the Danube and Roman Commanders wanting to annex the place certainly existed prior to this date.

Ref the conddition of the Roman forces in the East in AD 69 raised by Kerensky not only had they suffered some very bad defeats at the hands of the Parthians but Cestius Gallus the former Governor of Syria had got routed in Judea and may even have lost an Eagle. It is also reported that they were in very poor condition prior to Domitius Corbulo taking over and he had had to undertake intensive training to bring them back into fighting condition prior to his victories in Armenia.

Thus its probably fair to say (and was believed at the time) that troops sent East tended to go soft in the fleshpots of Antoich etc and were not as good as those on the Rhine and Danube frontiers. But to be fair under a good general like Corbulo they could toughen up and Vaspasians 5th, 10th and 15th (from Egypt) Legions who stormed Jerusalem, Masada etc seem like perfectly good Legions.

The fact that the Eastern Legions played no active part in the civil war which was won when the Danube Legions who had been backing Otha declared for Vespasian after Otha death and proceeded to defeat the Rhine Legions means it is hard to say how the Eastern Legions would have faired against the Western Legions but for game purposes I think its hard to say some Legions are better than others at the start. And everyone probably starts with their own problems!

Historically in the East Lininius Mucianus who actually had 4 legions to Vespasians 3 legions declared for Vespasian and the Parthian's were also friendly but does this have to be the case in the game. You also wonder if in game so many players will fall on their sword following a defeat. Suspect a Otha player might instead retreat to Iberia or even try and link up with the Danube Legions following a defeat in Italy.

Have asked Richard about a start date & received this reply

"The (un)official news is the waiting list for the Roman game should be opened this year, probably in September, and the game will launch next year, probably in May!"

So hope that helps give people a better idea of what to expect.

Enjoy the wait.

Waiting list is up, for May 2020 start. Sign up bonus offer of free rules pdf when they are made available. Nearly 100 positions to choose from.

https://www.agema.org.uk/Waiting_List_Rome_is_Burning.html

I'm surprised at how many positions there are. This seems like a bit of a nightmare for richard to run that many NPC positions.

But it implies it is likely to be a long game since you aren't going to start with much!

Am I missing something or is the position of starting Emperor (or any Italian peninsula positions) missing ?

Im not interested in Emperor position as I know very little about the period but wonder how that is going to play out ?...unless Ive missed something obvious.

Yep, no emperor position, because he is Nero... and his days are numbered! Part of the game is to have players getting in position to claim to be emperor themselves when the inevitable happens and Nero shifts off his mortal coil. This could happen a number of ways, and if a player wants to push things along, he could perhaps arrange an 'et tu Brutus' moment against Nero!

Also... the Italian provinces are senatorial, which means they are under the sway (theoretically) of the senate, and the emperor...

many thanks for confirming Richard

Very interesting....

Marshal Bombast wrote:Waiting list is up, for May 2020 start.  Sign up bonus offer of free rules pdf when they are made available. Nearly 100 positions to choose from.

https://www.agema.org.uk/Waiting_List_Rome_is_Burning.html

I thought this was a game about Rome but with three barbarians for each Roman we could end up with a game about how Jason established the 1st German Empire......a bit early (with help from Scots Druids?). Then got his head turned into a drunking cup by the Huns and all of these horse nomad types. (Still think 70 AD is a bit early for Huns this far west.......and why no Jewish rebel position?).

The alternative way of looking at this list is that the Barbarians are so split up it may take three barbarians to take down one Roman so apart from a couple of hard core pyromanic's and perhaps the odd player who thinks wearing silk PJ's and slippers and having a harem is cool most players are going to go Roman.

As I see for Roman players to think over are:

1) Attack the neigbours to build up that all important Military Reputation? Or keep Polishing your armour ready for when it all kicks off?

2) Try to kill Nero ASAP or allow Richard to issue loads of really stupid orders first in the hope that non of them come your way.

I have a plan. I am not sure it's very clever, but it's mine.

I've reserved my position. First game is likely to be a huge mess as we all try our 'clever' plans at once while Richard laughs himself sick at our expense!

With so so many non-Roman positions there may well be a problem that they all those in a specific Geographical area need to band together to take down a Roman position, which is all well & good in theory, but the curse of the "NPC position" may well be a bugbear in the planning.

Still that said, I have also reserved a position, guess it's just a case of wait & see what gets thrown up in game once it starts, wonder if the German tribes can get their hands on some Elephants..... Yes it's a plan, maybe not a good one but it's a start.

J Flower wrote:With so so many non-Roman positions there may well be  a problem that they all those in a specific Geographical area need to band together to take down  a Roman position, which is all well & good in theory, but the curse of the "NPC position" may well be a bugbear in the planning.

Still that said, I have also reserved a position, guess it's just a case of wait & see what gets thrown up in game once it starts, wonder if the German tribes can get their hands on some Elephants..... Yes it's a plan, maybe not a good one but it's a start.

Wonder if parts of game could play like Scabble - where various position's seem to spend their time gathering up NPC's positions via a mix of diplomacy and military action and get very personal and protective about "their" part of the map and intervention from outside.

Basically:

Lord Derby = The Emperor
HEIC = Loyal Gov
Opium Cartel = Not Loyal Gov with Dodgy links to Dacia
Railways = Roman Roads
Nuns = Vestal Virgins and other odd Cults
Cricket = Chariot racing/Gladiators


Dr Fu-Manchu = Nasty German plotting to unite all the German tribes......probably Druidic links.
The French = The Parthians
Czar Alexander & his happy hymn singing Cossacks = Bunch of Horse Nomads who start long way from anyone of importance, but every month or so seem to get a little closer.

Wish I had a cunning plan to make myself Emperor or King of the Germans but currently not come up with anything.

I have thrown my hat in the ring and got the silk pyjama kingdom.

Sorry to be a bit of a history nerd (ancient war elephant nerd) but 60AD would not have been a good time to source elephants. The Parthians didn't use or import elephants from India. The reason being that Zoroastrians considered elephants as unclean animals. For the Zoroastrians the world was dualistic between good and bad and this applied to animals as with everything else. Snakes were bad (influence on the bible there) and elephants were bad as their trunks were like snakes. So there is no evidence of Parthians ever using war elephants as far as I am aware. The Achaemenid Persians only used elephants once, at the battle of Gaugamela which was the do or die moment for their empire in which they threw everything in. Even then they only used 15 elephants which didn't take part in the battle. Seleucis I was able to get 300 elephants only a few years later. Showing that it was possible to get them in larger numbers. The Achaemenids and later Parthians just had a horror of elephants regardless of what the film 300 depicts.
The later Sassanids, after the Parthians, did use war elephants; they seem to have taken a more pragmatic approach to these battle winners.
The north African elephant supply has dried up by 60AD to a large extent. The Ptolemaic supply route from the Red Sea had ended and only smaller oasis elephants would have been available. Probably there were none around by this time anyway having been used up in the previous centuries of warfare.
Don't forget we know the story of Hannibal but actually all the elephants who went over the Alps with him died of the cold soon after. The elephants he used in later battles were all later re supplies via the sea.
So Jason, I would suggest a re think on Germanic War Elephants. They were notoriously difficult to breed in captivity. The Seleucids never achieved it. However, it is considered that the Indians only ever sold them male elephants, so that scuppered that, but there are other indications that the Seleucids did try to have an elephant breeding programme.
Me, I am going to concentrate on Nisean horse breeding to stomp the legions with cataphracts who ran over a whole legion on the Roman left wing at the battle of Magnesia, even though Antiochus III then threw the battle away by not getting the cataphracts to return to the battlefield. Same as at Raphia!!!!
How to burn down Rome - with Parthian horse archers and cataphracts.

Ok, may need to re think the plan then if Elephants aren't going to be avaliable then maybe A breed of "War Goat" is the way ahead, afterall if it all goes wrong then they would come in as a handy sacrifice to Wotan.

Claudius took some elephants and camels along on his invasion of Britain in AD 43.

Do not think the Army HQ allowed the Emperor or his elephants anywhere near any real action but they seem to have impressed the locals and looked really good in the victory parade back in Rome.

So perhaps the Germans can import some under cover as part of a "circus act" and then use them to really impress the neighbours.  Of course the cold and wet in Germany and getting the right sort of fodder may me a bit of a problem along with riders getting pole axed by low hanging tree branches.

The Suren one of the great Parthian clans who basically ran the eastern Provinces of the Parthian Empire as a private fief and then private Kingdom seem to have had elephants and used them.  So in theory if not in practice the Parthians could have used Elephants in the West.
Of course they would probably upset Parthian Cavalry more than they would the Infantry of the Legions and provide a target for every artillery piece in the Legions.

Think Magnesia provides a lot of reasons why the Parthians could have trouble burning Rome and why the Romans abandoned the use Elephants......the routed Roman Left rallied on its fortified camp and the cataphracts failed to storm the camp.  Meanwhile on what should have been perfect terrain for a Macedonian Pike Phalanx it gets stomped flat by its own panicing Elephants.

In my own Parthian wargames army the odd troop types I do like are the Cataphract Camels and the Republican ramnant Legionaries.  But still say the most dangerous fancy troop type too Rome is "German Bodyguards!"........this is why I intend my Character to have a proper body guard of gladiators house trained not to leave naked flames burning unattended!  He will also demand in the senate that the Roman Fire service gets proper training, funding and equipment.

Think my program for the Imperium would also ban foreign troops from Italy, come down hard on Circus acts and other lurid types and also smack down hard on foreign gods and cults

Not sure if I want to be Emperor (not a job with a good life Assurance prospect) but if anyone wants a good Omen quite fancy being Pontifix Maximus.......The only good war goat.....is one braised in white wine and served with Onions!

A long standing, if very drunken, discussion among UK archaeologists is where are Claudius' elephants buried...that they must have died of cold in this orrible weather so somewhere in Essex....

Don't laugh, I was once at a meeting of area archaeologists in Aberdeenshire where the minutes included the following "Recent work has identified the burial site of the elephant but that of the two bears and five lions is still unknown"

Now excuse me while I prepare my McDruids for the upcoming conflict with Britannia...or am I the King of Orkney and pro-Rome...

Jason2 wrote:A long standing, if very drunken, discussion among UK archaeologists is where are Claudius' elephants buried...that they must have died of cold in this orrible weather so somewhere in Essex....

Don't laugh, I was once at a meeting of area archaeologists in Aberdeenshire where the minutes included the following "Recent work has identified the burial site of the elephant but that of the two bears and five lions is still unknown"

Now excuse me while I prepare my McDruids for the upcoming conflict with Britannia...or am I the King of Orkney and pro-Rome...

If good old Claudius wanted Elephants in his triumph back in Rome.......no ones says they have to be exactly the same ones has he took on his AD 43 summer holidays to Britannia.

But I like to think the weather in summer AD 43 was perfectly nice and Claudius elephants made it back OK and twenty odd years later are living in a nice home for retired Imperial Elephants.

Have decided that my character is now in favour of a proper Roman Fire Service, The Blue's Chariot Team, Proper Pensions for Veterans including retired Imperial Elephants and beating the ***** out of Germans, Parthians and Druids. Seems like a vote winner for Senate Elections!

Having taken week off to watch England beat nasty colonial types with a thing about sandpaper at cricket (who am I kidding )

Have been sorting out some other stuff as well including looking up the Character I have been given for Rome is Burning.

Turns out he is the father of later Emperor Trajan of the same name and I become a God! Which is a change from my normal style of picking a position which historically did badly and see if I can do any better.

As anyone else noticed that many of the great Rome families seem to have a serious lack of imagination with names. Some seem to cover about three hundred years and only use three names!

The bad news is that at the start of the game my character formerly better connected wife has family links to 65AD plot against Nero and if not exactly disgraced she is badly out of favour. So badly out of favour that Vaspasian's elder son Titus divorced her sister due to the same problem.

Guess Trajan could have done the same but since he was also linked with late and much lemented Domitius Cordoba doubt if it would clear the black mark.

Oh well it could be worse - might be out of favour with Rome but at least Spain has got Wine, Olives and Sun & a shortage of Druids, Pyro-manic Germans, revolting Jews and men in silk PJ's.

To be fair to the Macedonian pike they performed an amazing tactical feat at Magnesia. After the Seleucid cataphract right charged off with Antiochus their cavalry on the left beat the Romans and were only driven off by the Pergamum cavalry. So Greeks beating Greeks. This left the phalanx in the centre with the elephants. The phalanx formed up around the elephants and marched off the battlefield and the Romans couldn't break the formation. An amazing feat for the time. So the Romans attacked the elephants in the centre of the phalanx with missiles who panicked and attacked and burst out of the Seleucid phalanx protecting them. Once the formation was broken the Romans slaughtered them.
I think the defeat at Magnesia is down to Antiochus being a prat. How can you forgive the man who had fought at Thermopylae the year before and allowed his elite forces to be slaughtered by allowing the Romans to use the very same path the Persians did against Leonidas without guarding it, and then running away to save his own skin! Just stupid.

Fair point about Claudius' elephants at Colchester. Do you have a reference for Parthians using elephants? I wonder if the far east of the Parthian Empire might not have been Zoroastrian.

Tregaron in Wales, close to where I live, had a circus elephant die there in 1848 and buried, but they have lost the location now. So little hope on finding Claudius' elephants. Supposedly the poor beast was thirsty so the locals led it to a water supply which they didn't know had lead poisoning which finished the creature off.