Game 8

Kerensky wrote:I decline to decline Haggis.

Rumours that the accusative (plural) of Haggis, a putative 2nd declension noun, is Haggi are but dust in the wind...

The Celtic linguistic roots of Haggis, or Haggises, are lost, along with documentary evidence of the ‘last live sighting’ of a Haggis (allegedly, in 1703, by a Mssr J Wilson).

According to reports in the Britannic Times herds of Haggis have been found by Nippon Railway workers in the mountains of Taiwan in 1860.

This lead to a debate over if these are True or Royal Haggis or some lesser Asian breed.

It should also be advised that these reports come from a Scots Engineer in Japanese employ who has an invisible friend called Eric and has also seen Yeti (who may be Haggis Herders).

Considering the influence of the "Green Fairy" on some characters and the massive fight over control of the Opium trade I am starting to wonder if some players in scrabble may be taking "method acting" lessons at bit too far when writing orders for scabble!

Kerensky wrote:I decline to decline Haggis.

Rumours that the accusative (plural) of Haggis, a putative 2nd declension noun, is Haggi are but dust in the wind...

The Celtic linguistic roots of Haggis, or Haggises, are lost, along with documentary evidence of the ‘last live sighting’ of a Haggis (allegedly, in 1703, by a Mssr J Wilson).

Bah that's anti-Scottish propaganda put out by the Yorkshire Tourist Board...why, some of my fondest memories of living in Scotland are sitting by Loch Ness, watching the vast herds of Haggi frolocking on the foreshore as the sun went down...unfortunately this was the most dangerous time for them as dusk was Nessie's feeding time and her favourite snack is...well I'll let you guess...

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Kerensky wrote:I decline to decline Haggis.

Rumours that the accusative (plural) of Haggis, a putative 2nd declension noun, is Haggi are but dust in the wind...

The Celtic linguistic roots of Haggis, or Haggises, are lost, along with documentary evidence of the ‘last live sighting’ of a Haggis (allegedly, in 1703, by a Mssr J Wilson).

According to reports in the Britannic Times herds of Haggis have been found by Nippon Railway workers in the mountains of Taiwan in 1860.

This lead to a debate over if these are True or Royal Haggis or some lesser Asian breed.

It should also be advised that these reports come from a Scots Engineer in Japanese employ who has an invisible friend called Eric and has also seen Yeti (who may be Haggis Herders).

Considering the influence of the "Green Fairy" on some characters and the massive fight over control of the Opium trade I am starting to wonder if some players in scrabble may be taking "method acting" lessons at bit too far when writing orders for scabble!

I can assure you that the effects of Green Fairy are nothing compared to some of the more home made (and I think completly illegal) types of whisky that (I am told) can still be obtained in certain parts Mr Glover came from...of course everything I am typing is based purely on rumour and not personal experience

And as G8 hits us just in time for Christmas...

You have to feel sorry for French sailors, I mean I know we all talk about how our bosses might pass water on us from a great height but do we usually expect it to be literal?

Also, is it just me or is implying the RN might be a little worried by the size of your fleet...or suggesting that its admirals might be a bit lacking in the round-spherical object department...simply an open invitation to the British to blast the hell out of Calais...

I read the French statement as a poker raise. France just raised 140 lineships and 270 cruisers, which I'd imagine is close to all in.

I don't think the pot is worth it to anybody but France given a murdered French ambassador. But to be fair, I'm not sitting at that table.

I am curious where the Russian player thinks he's going with this. And whether France is really going to try to take control of the Baltic... in winter?

Thankfully, the (slightly) more temperate Petit Dauphin used the magic words ‘when the campaign season opens’ in his Versailles speech.

Just to prove the universe is just, the morale of one of the Brest Garrison Corvettes dropped to LOW, which answers the question, who did the Sieur de Gue take a slash on from a great height?

Nevertheless, the Finance Minister is running a costing on getting the multiple fleets through the Sound Tolls. Could French naval power be halted in its tracks by the 18th Century equivalent of a congestion charges?

Finally, a credit to the legendary novelist Iain M Banks, for the Russian Ship classes (Gangster, Thug & Hooligan). I have been rereading the Culture canon over the last few weeks, so a few other references may slip in...

Now that the Austrians have a navy, I guess its time for Bavaria to get one as well, maybe start of small with barges , or is that too technical, I wonder if rowing boats is the better starting point.


Seems the Apollo Assoc, may have drifted into G8 in the form of the Free Baltic Trade Movement.

Have discovered that the Bavarian form of Bagpipes historically exists, so maybe we will find the rare Alpine Haggi(s) herds in the Alpine meadows.

Perhaps the Bavarians could come up with the dreaded land cruiser.

I must admit I do like the poker comparison Deacon....though I never gamble with my money, only my life...

Kerensky, maybe the congestion charge isn't the issue but congestion...I mean can you imagine the hold-ups if you try and send 400 ships into the Baltic?  It will be gridlock...and all the Russians need to do is install traffic lights at a crucial point, let only small groups of your fleet through at once...and deal with you piecemeal...and if your ships jump the red lights, they can then do you for sailing infringements, the fines could be massive...maybe i need to lend you some G10 Scottish lawyers?
Also, thanks for explaining where the ship class names came from, they rang vague bells but it's been some time since I read Banks' work  

And if we don't see a Bavarian Land Navy in G8 I will be very disappointed...I wonder if this could be a new industry for the Hanseatic League?  Developing Haggi-powered Land Cruisers...hmmm....

Been looking into "Ranks & Insignia" of the Bavarian navy could be useful in the coming turns.

Didn't some famous Italian Engineer have some ideas for land ships? Or was he just a doodler?

Odd request, working on how to play the Hanseatic League and what it's goals should be, part of that is its ideal military.

Now, at the risk of telling you all the obvious, all three cities in the League had micro-armies and I've got details of those.  Also I have records for the micro-fleets of Bremen and hamburg.

I am using those for my development plans for the League but I am, to a degree, venturing into the unknown with this one.  I wonder, for comparison, does anyone have either historical comparisons for the militaries of the maritime republics of Genoa and Venice, or the in-game setup militaries for either position, they would be willing to share on the forum? 
I have done some googling but can't find anything online that lists the military of Venice or Genoa in 1700 or soon after

Does this help for C18th Venetian Navy? http://felipe.mbnet.fi/html/ships_1667-1797.html

Thanks, it is

These historical models that help me develop a position that is in-keeping with the period. Like I said, I do have records for the forces maintained by the separate cities but I want to make sure what I'm developing in the position feels "accurate"

Is the Hanseatic league going to reach out for a Bavarian Admiral ? To help them take control of the Baltic Sound.

As I am relatively new to this game world, can someone please explain why the French are a tad upset with the Russians & why England is getting ready to invade Normandy?

France attempted to mediate the dispute between Russian and the Ingrians. Russia then murdered the French ambassador, and mocked the French.

Apparently a great deal of vodka is getting drunk in Russia these days.

Deacon wrote:
France attempted to mediate the dispute between Russian and the Ingrians. Russia then murdered the French ambassador, and mocked the French.

Apparently a great deal of vodka is getting drunk in Russia these days.

Russian diplomacy in this game seems a bit "Turko-Mongel" influenced to me........has the Czar also started to staff his harem with girls from Moldavia, Wallachia & Greece and started talking about the Roman Anti-Christ or no Popery in Holy Mother Russia?

Oddly in scabble the Czar is also called the Khan of Khans and Supreme Hetman and his Army Command seems to meet in a Goldern Yurt (you can take the Russians out of the Horde but can you take the Horde out of the Russians) but in this game the Russian's seem to spend a lot of time getting upset because people are being nasty to their envoy.

Last seen being kidnapped and held to ransom but at least no one has murdered him.

J Flower wrote:Is the Hanseatic league going to reach out for  a Bavarian Admiral ? To help them take control of the Baltic Sound.

Now there's an idea, a Hanseatic-Bavarian alliance to dominate the Baltic...then we can launch a joint war of unification to create a federated German state under our joint leadership 

Warning-this post may contain nuts, specifically Brazil nuts and the last of the Hogmanay booze 

I'm looking forward to whatever the Hanseatic player is up to. My quick google is that the whole thing is barely fogging a mirror by this period, so seems like a strange position to pick up.

All you folks who are far better historians, educate me!

Deacon wrote:
I'm looking forward to whatever the Hanseatic player is up to. My quick google is that the whole thing is barely fogging a mirror by this period, so seems like a strange position to pick up.

All you folks who are far better historians, educate me!

You're right Deacon, it was an unusual position for me to pick up but then you know I like to play odd positions  

Historically at this time the League was more of a memory, down to its last three members, something cities got nostalgic about but wasn't active.  However that nostalgia was important, particularly to Lubeck, Hamburg and Bremen who were not merely "Free Imperial Cities" but made clear they were also "Hanseatic Cities".  That nostalgia did carry on, after the collapse of Napoleon's power in Germany, the three cities formed a "Hanseatic League" as part of the German uprisings against France. However there has been two attempts to re-establish it (in new forms) since its disbandment in 1862...one in the late 20th Century and the other in 2018.  

So why have I picked the position?  I developed an interest in the League a few years back when working in Aberdeen museums.  I used to do joint introduction lectures with a lecturer from the university to their students.  My half was on how to use ships records (including construction records, logs of journeys, press cuttings, etc) to research social history.  His was talking about the early modern history of the Baltic, with two focuses-the importance of the herring industry and the rise of the Hanseatic League.  His talk got my interest and made me start looking into the League


I've always wanted to try out a real micro-position in a game and felt now was the time.  I put a number of options to Richard (all northern German) to see if he thought any were viable (there is always the danger that a position could be too small).  I'm sure Richard won't mind me saying that while some of the other ideas I put forward he thought more viable, I think the League idea appealed to him as a bit of an experiment.  That's the way I see it, a bit of an experiment, to see if I can make it work-and I think I can  


Plenty of trade opportunities and I have found details of the militaries (land and sea) of each of the three cities so will aim to recreate those accurately.  

I'm looking at as a bit of a "what if", we've done the "what ifs" of Jacobite Restoration, powerful Ottomans, etc.  What if the remains of the League tried to work together again, could they become a trading network once more?  Of course, population is small but the League in its heyday used foreign labour and mercenaries a lot while even in the early 18th C, it seems the three cities attracted a sizeable foreign workforce (one report I read, which I am not 100% convinced by, stated in the early 1700s only one-third of Hamburg's labour force were native to the city) so looking for foreign recruits, as I am as you'll have seen from the paper, is quite in-keeping.

The position isn't going to be able territorial expansion, or becoming a military power, but about building up trade and nation-building.  As reported in the papers, I have begun opening trade missions.  I've selected the sites of the major former Kontors of the League (which in the heyday of the League were nearer self-contained settlements than "just" a trading post) and I hope to eventually add things like a covered market and warehouses at my new kontors.

Having said I don't see the position becoming a military power, it does have some potential to have some fun with the military.  Not in a "going to war" way but in trying to recreate the militaries of the remaining members fairly accurately.  All three cities had micro-armies and Bremen and Hamburg micro-navies (though I would argue that in 1700 the Hamburg Admiralty had a more power fleet than Scotland).

Most of all I hope to add a bit of additional fun and enjoyment to the game

Deacon wrote:
France attempted to mediate the dispute between Russian and the Ingrians. Russia then murdered the French ambassador, and mocked the French.

Apparently a great deal of vodka is getting drunk in Russia these days.

I think the correct reading of the record is that the French put their nose into a issue that they were not invited to and had no treaty obligations to be involved in. Her Majesty's armed forces were there at the request of the Russian Government and successfully pleaded for the safety of the Ingrian Nobles and their families.

Certainly the French Navy doesn't want to put all 200 of their ships (cruisers included) into a fight with the RN. I hope that war can be prevented as the tone of the French Government has been good in private. I much prefer a peaceful Europe without world war... Maybe Russia will work with France over the diplomat.

I guess that depends upon your view of the conflict.

Since the Ingrians said they weren't for sale, France's involvement may well suit them and they welcome France's participation. The UK has chosen to accept a Russian invitation to get involved, but I'm not sure that makes one involvement more legitimate than another. Meddling in other people's business is what great powers do, after all.

Certainly, Russia has committed an act of war in killing the French ambassador. In game, the rules are clear that ambassadors carry the honour of their nation. All the follow on from Russia just piles on, on to that initial act.

I think France's honour will go in the toilet and stay there if they don't respond. If they have to go to war with England to get to Russia, I think they will.

Just to be clear, I am speculating only, based on game dynamics. I just think that France has been backed into a corner, after a fashion. If they don't extract a pound of flesh out of Russia, their honour will crater, I think.

I mean really, if the mockery from the Russian court was directed at anyone else after the murder of an ambassador, I think they'd be in the same boat. I assume Russia wants a war with France. I guess it's possible they're a new enough player that they don't get what they did and what it means, but that seems unlikely.

I have sympathy for the UK here. They're in an awkward position. Their ally is starting a stupid war that requires them to either refute their ally, or engage in very silly, but large scale war in defense of really obnoxious and barbaric behavior.

Just Russians being Russians... Everything is about business to the English.

Well, I don't see much profit in this situation for the English anymore. But, I don't know what the terms of any arrangements between the UK and Russia are. My offers to Russia when they joined the game went unanswered. Now I'm thinking that was lucky for me.

I just wonder, how much can Russian friendship be worth? Seems unlikely Russia can have enough to offer the UK to make standing by them worthwhile.  Supporting their claim to Ingria is one thing. Supporting their murder of the French ambassador and the insults that followed is something else.

Of course, there is the question of English honour too. Personally, I don't see them as being honour bound in this case, but I don't know what treaties may have been signed. Or it may just be that the English feel their public posture on this needs to be backed up and their honour is on the line despite Russian behavior.

Please don't feel the need to clarify, since I'm not involved I can speculate freely. I realize its hard to comment on this without sliding into a form of diplomacy by expressing some form of political posture. Not trying to bait you, just find the whole situation interesting.

Well, I hope everyone had a good break. I am just back from my holiday, or makan angin (literally, ‘eating wind’ in Malay).

On France’s response, it would be best if I did not say too much in forum, but Deacon’s view that murdering an ambassador is exceptionally high stakes, resonates with me. At this time, I do believe the Ottoman Empire issued a declaration of war by murdering the targeted countries ambassador. That would be a fair reference point.

Jason2, on the Hanse, very interested to see how this progresses. I actually spent some time googling and reading, and found material on your two escort frigates.

& If the situation does go south in game, there could be some major openings for a neutral flagged trading operation!

I pulled out my turn one Genoa sheet to give you a reference point against another small nation. On 1st January 1700, Genoa had:

1 elite infantry battalion
6 infantry battalions
1 horse squadron
100 fortress cannon
1 town watch unit

3 SOL
1 Great Frigate
15 Corvettes
10 liners

& as you can see, in G10, being small has certainly not limited my involvement and enjoyment of the game! I wish you much enjoyment as the Hanse reborn.

From the August 1709 Newspaper " In a drunken state the Tsarevitch’s friends ended up throwing Nikolaos into the waters of the Moscow River. Sadly he drowned"

murder is the premediated killing of one human by another.

I think Spanish law must be extremely harsh if someone being thrown in river, by a drunken individual - and that person can not then swim and so drowns is classified as murder.

Moscow is going to issue travel advice warning to Russians that while in Spain do not even brush past a person for fear they will fall over, break their neck and you are charged with murder

And Alexis has expressed both regret and remorse at the loss of the French ambassador and requested another be sent. We have arm-bands and a rubber ring for any new incumbent.