Game 8

Thanks for that Kerensky, what you posted and the link Marshal shared recently has helped me quite a bit in my thinking.  As ever it has made me think about a very different approach, which might result in me asking you all a related question later.
I suspect you also came across the third frigate Hamburg had at around this time, ok might have been out of service by 1709 but hey that's the joy of the games isn't it.  Plus Bremen had a couple of similar ships as well, though records seem to vary on if either, both or none were in service.  Do find it interesting that Hamburg didn't call its ships "frigates" but "convey protection ships" so they weren't considered warships.  I've not found anything that says Lubeck had anything similar at this time though I am toying with the city going a bit OTT and building a new "Adler von Lubeck"
I must admit, I do enjoy the smaller positions more regardless.  I have liked your style in G10, yours (to me at least) seems a very character-driven position, and I intend to try a similar approach...but before anyone panics, it's the approach that will be similar not the character!   

It does seem that G8 could do with some G10 Scottish lawyers to help resolve this thorny issue of when is murder, murder?  or should that be mmmuuurrrder?

The largest ship of its age, the Adler von Lubeck. If only it had seen a battle...

Another useful mine on small scale naval operations at this time would be the Knights of St. John on Malta. I have been finding myself sucked into the naval angle of the game & history (on the realisation I knew close to f**k all on Sail Naval tactics, up until six months ago).
There seems to be quite a bit online, covering the Orders navy, and I have been toying with the idea of buying a 40 Euro book from the Maltese History Society on the Eighteenth Century Navy of the Order.
I found this online, which is a useful introduction to the orders naval history:
http://melitensiawth.com/incoming/Index/Proceedings%20of%20History%20Week/PHW%201994/06s.pdf

I just wazzed my book allowance on French Warships in the Age if Sail, 1626 to 1786, so will have to consider next month.

& maybe we do need an 18th Century Taggart to investigate the murky death of the French Ambassador...

Adler von Lubeck is a fascinating ship...was it a sign of the power and ability of a Hanseatic city even as the League was in decline...or was it a white elephant (I'm currently working in an aviation museum that has a Concorde on display and walk underneath it several times a day so I am quite positive about what some may consider white elephants  ).  
This is musing, not diplomacy, but I have given some thought to what sort of ship a new "Adler" should be.  Looking at the original's crew size and cannon mix, as well as its actual size, I wonder if in Glory terms it is really a Heavy Frigate or SoL; however the original was supposed to be one of the largest ships of its time, so should I try and get hold of a LSoL...watch this space...


I hadn't considered the Knights of Malta as another role model, so thanks for the suggestion.  I have wondered about Courland also, given its naval power just before the Glory Period.

While I love the Taggart stories, I must admit to preferring Rebus-personality wise we seem similar and our drinking habits match...maybe it's time to copy the great man and do some "thinking and drinking" on the matter of the Hanseatic fleet

Being drunk isn't an excuse for murder in any civilized country, then or now. Being able to swim was not the the norm in the period. Throwing somebody into a river is an act of murder. Trying to be cute about the act after the fact doesn't change its essential nature. It rather confirms that the initial act wasn't just a drunken mistake.

I shall defend myself one more time simply because I am being falsely accused of an act that I did not commit. No orders were given to throw the French ambassador into the river , let alone bring harm to his person. I am happy for Kerensky to see my submitted orders if so required.

I must be honest, the whole "ambassador in the river" reminds me of my D&D days when a GM would roll for the actions of a NPC in a situation and sometimes you had a "WTF" result...in one game we were about to take on a very nasty dragon, we went into attack and we had several NPCs with us (basically armed retainers), one of whom was an extremely experienced paladin, the sort who was first into the fight...except on this one occasion the DM rolled to determine what he would do...and announced the Paladin threw down his sword, declared he really wanted to be a ballet dancer and launched into a one-man rendition of "Swan Lake" (our DM had a rather perverted mind)

@ Jason2

You can not leave a story like that unfinished! ........While your Paladin was try to turn himself into a Bard and "entrance" the Dragon with his performance of Dragon Lake was your Character running or trying to back stab the Dragon and did either work?

If you do build the Alder are you going to follow the Spanish Flag Ship in G7 - The Santa Sophia - and as well as State Rooms including oil paintings and a really fancy wine cooler this ship also has a drop in Ebony Dance floor in case you have visitors.

Mind you for my mirco position in G10 I prefer speed over fire power.

To say the whole situation went surreal is putting it mildly Stuart.  It involved us fighting the dragon while trying to dodge one of our NPCs doing ballet moves around us.  The only visual comparison I can give is if you have seen "Guardians of the Galaxy 2", it would seem a bit like the first five minutes of that (with baby Groot as the paladin), in fact after the film came out my former d&ders got in contact with each other to check none of us had been involved in the film

On Adler I think she would be a pretty ship with lots of flippanty and prettiness

Jason2 wrote:To say the whole situation went surreal is putting it mildly Stuart.  It involved us fighting the dragon while trying to dodge one of our NPCs doing ballet moves around us.  The only visual comparison I can give is if you have seen "Guardians of the Galaxy 2", it would seem a bit like the first five minutes of that (with baby Groot as the paladin), in fact after the film came out my former d&ders got in contact with each other to check none of us had been involved in the film

On Adler I think she would be a pretty ship with lots of flippanty and prettiness

120-Gunner lineship (Drill bored brass 42 pounders, carronades, flintlock mechanisms, screw thread elevators, improved naval gunsights, second powder rooms, state rooms, stable ship design, slanted stern, improved sail and rigging, boomkins, silken sails, coppered, officers are graduates, physician, marines with blunderbusses and grenadoes.)

Would seem like a good basis for the Alder but clearly for extra style you need a ebony dance floor, perhaps Handle to conduct his water music on board and a famous artist to paint the stern and the figure head. Plus lots of bunting and flags for when you welcome the Czar or the King of Sweden on board.

A good model for the Adler Stuart, not sure I could convince any of the major powers to build it for me    

As aside, one thing i have always wondered about, why are blunderbusses good for marines?

Jason2 wrote:A good model for the Adler Stuart, not sure I could convince any of the major powers to build it for me    

As aside, one thing i have always wondered about, why are blunderbusses good for marines?

If you get the English, Dutch, French or Venice to build it you can also add an Elite crew to further inflate the cost of Naval shiybuilding

Currently in G7 I have visions of the trained lawyers (just to upset the Jacobites) & other Treasury Administrators hiding under their Desks every time the Grand Admiral shows up with a bundle of Naval Estimates and shipyard contracts he wants signed off.

Ref what to arm marines with......guess it depends if you see them as sharp shooters trying to take out Captains, Helmsmen etc in which case they want Heavy Muskets or Rifles or you want them to lead boarding actions and street fighting in Ports in which case the blunderbuss or muskatoon has a lot to be said for it

Thinking about the Alder Marines perhaps they should be given a fancy rifled musket so than can act as Presidential Guards when he is touring the Ports of the Baltic to try and get them to re-join the Hanse.

Think after I played Augustus the Strong for a while and spreed a bit of Royal Patronage around El Presidente of the Hanse might find some some fun NPC's in the Eastern Baltic. Danzig is basically run by one of his Mistresses (The mother of little de Saxe) and her brother while the young widowed Duchess who runs Courland seems to be the great "Tease" of G8.

Mind you if you managed to suduce her with your flashy western German ways and boat rides round the Baltic I can see the mad Vasa ferret lover of old Stockholm Town having a major fit and probably calling you out.

Thanks Stuart, that's useful and interesting on marines.  I've not really done much with them ever (other than have them as part of the crew) so a few things to think about (both for G8 and generally).

I better not give too much away on how I'll play my G8 character in regards the examples you've given just in case I slip into diplomacy

Jason2 wrote:Thanks Stuart, that's useful and interesting on marines.  I've not really done much with them ever (other than have them as part of the crew) so a few things to think about (both for G8 and generally).

I better not give too much away on how I'll play my G8 character in regards the examples you've given just in case I slip into diplomacy

Think the problem with Western Navies marines is that unless both sides look to close and board it probably will not happen and if you do seperate Marines from their mother ship they come in such small packets (50 men from standard line ship) that they do not last very long no matter what they are armed with.

However, if you are playing a Med or Baltic position think it is worth while looking at standard and large galley's not so much as Naval units but as sea mobile Infantry.

count-de-monet wrote:I shall defend myself one more time simply because I am being falsely accused of an act that I did not commit.  No orders were given to throw the French ambassador into the river , let alone bring harm to his person. I am happy for Kerensky to see my submitted orders if so required.

I can only go by what I know in-game which is almost entirely from the paper. Forum posts are out of game.

All I see in game is the evident glee of the Russians in insulting the French repeatedly which does not persuade me the ambassador's death was an accident. Or, that the Tsar regretted the death at all.

"Who will rid me of this meddlesome ambassador?" perhaps?

That's my .02 anyway.

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Jason2 wrote:Thanks Stuart, that's useful and interesting on marines.  I've not really done much with them ever (other than have them as part of the crew) so a few things to think about (both for G8 and generally).

I better not give too much away on how I'll play my G8 character in regards the examples you've given just in case I slip into diplomacy

Think the problem with Western Navies marines is that unless both sides look to close and board it probably will not happen and if you do seperate Marines from their mother ship they come in such small packets (50 men from standard line ship) that they do not last very long no matter what they are armed with.

However, if you are playing a Med or Baltic position think it is worth while looking at standard and large galley's not so much as Naval units but as sea mobile Infantry.

I have been considering galleys so your comment is quite timely.  Of course, recruits is the issue (I don't want to go OTT on the military side of the position) and I do have that interesting thing where only Lubeck is in the Baltic so I will eventually need to check with Richard whether I can only build them at Lubeck or also Hamburg and Bremen.  Also, I know Large Galleys crews are 50% marines but I don't think the same applies to "normal" galleys, does it?

Your comment on the limitations of onboard marines is a good one.  I often raise an infantry battalion as marines and assign it to a fleet but that isn't going to really be an option for the League (on recruit numbers) but a "grenadier" company as marines could be viable...again will need to check with Richard on the carrying capacity issue (e.g. if 1 battalion requires 3 SoL, can 1 SoL/LSoL embark 1 company?)

Deacon wrote:

count-de-monet wrote:I shall defend myself one more time simply because I am being falsely accused of an act that I did not commit.  No orders were given to throw the French ambassador into the river , let alone bring harm to his person. I am happy for Kerensky to see my submitted orders if so required.

I can only go by what I know in-game which is almost entirely from the paper. Forum posts are out of game.

All I see in game is the evident glee of the Russians in insulting the French repeatedly which does not persuade me the ambassador's death was an accident. Or, that the Tsar regretted the death at all.

"Who will rid me of this meddlesome ambassador?" perhaps?

That's my .02 anyway.

Look, we're in a situation where French admirals are relieving themselves onto their own sailors...maybe it's just me but the idea of Kerensky writing an order that includes "and take a piss on my ships crew" seems as likely as Count writing "oh, drown the French ambassador".  

The only possible conclusion is Lord Fong has escaped G9 and found a wormhole to G10, where he met up with Lord Melville, they both got drunk on some very good Scotch, have then kidnapped Richard and are now DM-ing the games...

Warning-may contain nuts

I actually imagine France did write that bit, perhaps without really thinking about it. Doesn't really matter to those of us who aren't France (who can take it up with Richard if they think it appropriate). For the rest of us, it's in the paper, so it's the game version of truth. Richard has done things I consider pretty crazy with my orders before. It can be extremely frustrating, I will grant you. Particularly when those 'interpretations' of orders lead to unwelcome consequences.

But, if Russia felt that way, they could have expressed that quite clearly after the fact. They didn't. In fact, they just kept piling on. Personally, I have sacked ministers over such 'creative' interpretations of my orders to make it very clear I consider that "no bueno". If those who do such things suffer no consequences, then this is implicit consent, if nothing else.

As in the example I was alluding to (Henry II getting Becket killed), I can well imagine that the Tsar's in-game words led to a result that he didn't specifically request and maybe doesn't want. But, Henry II got pilloried for his words and their consequences anyway. Perhaps, if Henry II handled the fallout of his words differently, it might have also gone differently for him too.

Nobody but Russia and Richard get to see what is on Russia's order sheets, so all we can do is go by what transpires in the world as reported on our turns and the paper.

Yep, I wrote that piece, and it was printed verbatim. All Richard chose was which ship’s morale dropped as a result. I always enjoy my characters having flaws, it reflects life.

My Sieur de Gue is brave, daring and aggressive, but insouciantly arrogant and a bit of a self centered questionable birth.

Too many on our asset sheets to bring them all to life, but I like to have four or five I work on to bringing alive in any one game. It aids my creativity and enjoyment.

I just wish to assure the crews of the emerging Hanseatic Fleet that I will not be giving them a golden shower!

I do like Deacon's Henry II comparison, it does seem a good one for the odd situation.

I shall await the next G8 turn,hopefully this week, with great interest.

I think I have shared this in letters in Game, so its not exactly secret or going against game diplomacy (I hope).

Since Kerensky joined, or re-joined - I dont know if he is an old player returning - I have had a couple of scrapes with him, but one thing I have admired in his approach is his "story-telling". He breathes a real life into characters.

While the death of the French ambassador was not planned, and I do see Deacon's point now and analogy to Henry, I have grasped an opportunity presented by both Richard and Kerensky to try and make Alexis a little more colourful and prone, not to be entirely under my control, to bouts of paranoia, drunkenness, anger and psychotic episodes....as befits a Romanov.

Referencing the mock naval battle between Russian force (a small boy) and a French force (a gang of brutes) I have tried to portray the madness with humour. I wont reach Kerensky's heights....but will try.

count-de-monet wrote:I think I have shared this in letters in Game, so its not exactly secret or going against game diplomacy (I hope).

Since Kerensky joined, or re-joined - I dont know if he is an old player returning - I have had a couple of scrapes with him, but one thing I have admired in his approach is his "story-telling".  He breathes a real life into characters.

While the death of the French ambassador was not planned, and I do see Deacon's point now and analogy to Henry, I have grasped an opportunity presented by both Richard and Kerensky to try and make Alexis a little more colourful and prone, not to be entirely under my control, to bouts of paranoia, drunkenness, anger and psychotic episodes....as befits a Romanov.

Referencing the mock naval battle between Russian force (a small boy) and a French force (a gang of brutes) I have tried to portray the madness with humour.  I wont reach Kerensky's heights....but will try.

Have you considered playing Czar Alexis as someone who basically thinks he his name sake (ie Alexander of Macadonia) reborn?

- Murder dead old dad or at least to linked to his death so you can take over.......tick

- Murder the odd friend in a drunken episode......ok Alexander threw a spear but chucking the frog's envoy into a river is a sort of tick.

- Has Alexis got a really close male friend? And does he believe his real father is a bit more important than a mere Czar?

- But basically all you need to do now is conquer Persia, most of the Ottoman Empire, then invade India and build loads of cities named after yourself.

Actually all of the above seems like perfectly normal plan's for a Romanov to have. Just avoid marrying an German girls called Catherine (perhaps going the whole Alexander you could marry a daughter of the dec'd Sultan or the Shah?)

count-de-monet wrote:I think I have shared this in letters in Game, so its not exactly secret or going against game diplomacy (I hope).

Since Kerensky joined, or re-joined - I dont know if he is an old player returning - I have had a couple of scrapes with him, but one thing I have admired in his approach is his "story-telling".  He breathes a real life into characters.

While the death of the French ambassador was not planned, and I do see Deacon's point now and analogy to Henry, I have grasped an opportunity presented by both Richard and Kerensky to try and make Alexis a little more colourful and prone, not to be entirely under my control, to bouts of paranoia, drunkenness, anger and psychotic episodes....as befits a Romanov.

Referencing the mock naval battle between Russian force (a small boy) and a French force (a gang of brutes) I have tried to portray the madness with humour.  I wont reach Kerensky's heights....but will try.

I think, like so many players, you've shown why these games can be so much fun, I look forward to your further adventures as the slightly insane Czar  ...just so long as in his insanity he likes the League  

Though seriously, it is when we play our positions as characters that the games come alive-whether it's Count as the Czar, Kerensky as just about anyone he plays, Papa as the Pope, Stuart as the G10 Corsairs and perhaps me as Lord Fong, it's when a player plays their character as larger than life that the games reach a peak

I agree. Russia has been riding the edge of insanity for a while with the death of the former Tsar and all that followed. I've been surprised at the events, but also enjoyed them.. from a safe distance!

History is replete with mad kings. Why not? Some of them have been remarkably successful!

Jason... Game 8 and 10 are probably the most interesting of the lot I have been involved in. I would be remiss if I didn't say that Scramble is the most interesting of all as of late.

I'd agree Rev, G8 and G10 are fascinating games.  The way they are playing out in both cases is fascinating and enjoyable, I have definitely rejoined G8 at the right time.  

Scramble always seems its own monster, it often throws up a weird situation that could never happen in Glory