Game 10

"SL16? Dear god, what on earth happened to them Count?"

Its the Samurai - they are machines. When mere European mortals are struck down by a little touch of fever, sword cut, or minor bullet wound, the Samurai take on one arm missing, one leg missing, their head hanging on by a thread and STILL can exist as a military force !

Its the Great Lord of the Shimazu clan and some of his retainers who have been fighting in the jungles of Okinawa for several months. Thankfully they are now back in a castle and will hopefully recover....in about 10 years time.

jamesbond007 wrote:“ Has anyone counted  how many players claim I am insane this month.” Papa Clement quote.

Does that observation not tell you anything.

Why some players want to stick to History so much is strange. If we all played historically then every game would be the same and boring. But players who stick to History also change bits to suit themselves.

Papa clement commented and praised Stuart for at attempting to play historically. But Stuart took advantage of a weak spanish player and captured spanish towns in the America’s. As well as French Flanders. Is this Historical ?

I suppose the bottom line is. Players pick and choose which parts of history they wish to recreate and be historical. If good opportunities arrive they take it to advance their position and then History goes out the window.

So to praise one ( supposed) historical player and criticise another for ( obviously) not playing historically Is incorrect. No player plays entirely historically.

What I actually wrote was to thank Stuart for writing a letter to me - and for "playing the game", i.e. engaging with all aspects and trying to explain what is happening, something certain other players have refused to do.  Although I disagree with some of his approach, that's what makes the game a game, and I can respect the line he is taking.

I cannot respect those players who seem to think the Papacy has no religious role so should be played as a secular state, while they lampoon the Pope personally and mock religion, trying to undermine the reason the Papacy exists!  That is not simply choosing different historical paths to explore within a game, but ignoring what underpins history and in a theological sense the entire point of history.  History is "His Story" ... the working out of Christ's plan for humanity though time.  To take religion out of the mix or to make religious symbolism the plaything of secular rulers is a desecration and an insult to both God and man.  You cannot expect any Pope to simply shrug his shoulders and do nothing!

I agree Papa there is a role for the pope and the Papal States. But there is a fine line between a pope playing a catholic religion role and a pope attempting to dictate Catholic nations economic and military policy.

For example. A pope sending recruiting missions into a leading catholic nation without asking is the latter.
 A pope coming up with an end slavery this year policy. When slavery nets catholic powerhouses millions is again interfering with economic policy.
 A pope who comes up with an end to the spanish succession by giving himself Sardinia, Sicily and Naples is again I would say pushing his own agenda. Rather than that of a neutral church position.

Just my take on matters.

count-de-monet wrote:"SL16? Dear god, what on earth happened to them Count?"

Its the Samurai - they are machines.  When mere European mortals are struck down by a little touch of fever, sword cut, or minor bullet wound, the Samurai take on one arm missing, one leg missing, their head hanging on by a thread and STILL can exist as a military force !

Its the Great Lord of the Shimazu clan and some of his retainers who have been fighting in the jungles of Okinawa for several months.  Thankfully they are now back in a castle and will hopefully recover....in about 10 years time.

*Note to self, don't attack Japan* Seriously, am quite impressed they kept going with that level of sickness and to win as well. Hope they recover quickly!

jamesbond007 wrote:Just my take on matters.

Read the letters I have sent you and the statements in the newspaper in the few months you have been playing, and you may begin to grasp that your "take" on matters is now completely irrelevant given the path you have chosen.

Feel free to write to me in game, but without a significant change in your approach any reply will be through the newspaper, if I deem it worth my time.  In nearly 30 years of playing this game I have always tried to maintain correspondence even whilst at war with the most objectionable and unreasonable of players in the hope that differences could be resolved.  To do so in your case would be to require me to sustain a level of delusion far beyond my ability.

Jason2 wrote:

count-de-monet wrote:"SL16? Dear god, what on earth happened to them Count?"

Its the Samurai - they are machines.  When mere European mortals are struck down by a little touch of fever, sword cut, or minor bullet wound, the Samurai take on one arm missing, one leg missing, their head hanging on by a thread and STILL can exist as a military force !

Its the Great Lord of the Shimazu clan and some of his retainers who have been fighting in the jungles of Okinawa for several months.  Thankfully they are now back in a castle and will hopefully recover....in about 10 years time.

*Note to self, don't attack Japan*  Seriously, am quite impressed they kept going with that level of sickness and to win as well.  Hope they recover quickly!

I have seen units at higher sick list levels than this, however ordering them to do anything (even resting) may not help. Even if confined to barracks on double rations, with hospital treatment, still expect some losses over the next year until they get a more normal sickness level. Issuing a civilian order in the same town could cause casualties as could a shower of rain.

I think I have rattled someone’s cage. Some players don’t like it when they cannot get their own way.

jamesbond007 wrote:I think I have rattled someone’s cage. Some players don’t like it when they cannot get their own way.

On the contrary - the only practical benefit to the Papacy of France/Spain being Catholic is the payment of tithes.  France stopped paying tithes 18 months ago and Spain when you joined.  This releases the Papacy from any obligation to 2 large nations who will now pick up all associated costs themselves and will not be able to call upon the church for support as other nations can.

Should reduce my game turn costs considerably.

In addition you will suffer the long term handicaps of playing a ruler who has a different religion to your nation, something which as I know from G7 is always a precarious position to be in. I'm looking forward to which kind of protestant nation you try to turn Spain into. Will you go Anglican? England has plenty of money so I guess can help bail you out. Will you go Lutheran? Will you go Calvinist and invite Lord Melville to drink whisky with you ... might be tricky getting him to sit down with the corsairs, but I guess he'll take the honour hit. Or will you mix and match? Spain could go Anglican whilst America could go Calvinist - that would be fun. Of course might not be as smooth as you expect, but you're up for that I'm sure. You could even invent your own Church of Roderigo, proclaim yourself a new Messiah and demonstrate even more contempt for the place of religion in history than you are doing currently. The options are endless.

No. I only stopped paying tithes a couple of turns ago.

Do you not think that aliainating The churches two biggest supporters was a diplomatic failure on your part.?

Do you not think that in your own words. Many different rulers and players stating you are mad in the newspaper this month is again not a diplomatic failing on your part. ?

Cannot see France or Spain needing church support. In other games the papal is usually not played. Never hinders big powers.

Anyway. Hope you find your own niche within the game.

jamesbond007 wrote:No. I only stopped paying tithes a couple of turns ago.

Incorrect - they were due a couple of turns ago, but you had taken the decision not to pay before that since you threatened me with this.

jamesbond007 wrote:Do you not think that alienating The churches two biggest supporters was a diplomatic failure on your part.?

No. France had decided long ago to take on the church by using Savoy and the Corsairs to fight a proxy war. Just as you, having seen what they were doing, decided to do the same. Nothing I could have done about either, but whilst France dragged it out and at least tried to make counter arguments through the newspaper, you were in a hurry.

jamesbond007 wrote:Do you not think that in your own words. Many different rulers and players stating you are mad in the newspaper this month is again not a diplomatic failing on your part. ?

No. Protestant criticism of the Papacy is to be expected. I have good relations with most nations. If there is a diplomatic failing it is by having so far refused to criticise protestant nations with the same enthusiasm they have criticised me, preferring instead to take a more ecumenical line.

jamesbond007 wrote:Cannot see France or Spain needing church support.

I guess that's the root cause of your difficulties.

jamesbond007 wrote:In other games the papal is usually not played. Never hinders big powers.

I doubt the Papacy will be played again without some changes to the rules for reasons I pointed out in posts several months ago. It may well be that the Papacy is better kept inactive like the Chinese Emperor so the GM can use its powers more effectively.

It is much easier for big powers to become small ones than for small countries to get bigger, but size has its disadvantages in every game.

If the Church of Roderigo doesn't appeal then how about really ignoring history and reversing the Reconquista?  At a stroke you would gain the Ottoman Empire, Morocco, Persia, etc as Spanish allies, declare Jihad on France to recover Flanders, Milan, etc.

You would be at the apex of one of the largest coalitions ever assembled in any game: the Islamic Empire of Spain.

But why stop there?  Big powers are invincible!  You could join the Ottoman Empire and then seize control of their Empire as well. I'm sure Lord Melville will not object and Lord Godolphin will find a reason not to commit the Royal Navy to stopping you, while William Wake will try to prove Islam is really a branch of the Church of England.

Not sure why I am being dragged into this little "debate" but would rather you left me out of it, thank you very much!

Papa Clement.The problems started between the church and Spain was all your doing.

Firstly you decided to appoint your choice of King. Not the spanish players. All about you.Never mind the poor player paying his turn fees.

Secondly you decided that you. The Papal States was entitled to Sardinia, Sicily and Naples. From the Spanish succession.

Thirdly you decided to introduce the ending of the slave trade on All the Catholic world. Which would have economically crippled France, Spain and Portugal. Without even consulting with the players above.

Fourthly you decided to send recruiting parties all over Spain to recruit thousands of Spaniards for your cause. Again without consulting the Spanish player.

So you see. Throughout you have tried to force your will and ideas on the Catholic players. Particularly a weakened Spain. Which is why they have turned against you. Not the Catholic faith just the papal player. You.

Any player who plays the Pope, Papal States needs to realise their interest stays with the church and religion. Policy is nothing to do with them. That has been your undoing. Anyway better get some work done.

Jason2 wrote:Not sure why I am being dragged into this little "debate" but would rather you left me out of it, thank you very much!

What, Lord Melville doesn't want to see a Calvinist Spain, just one that opposes the Pope?

Strange ... all those threats in the newspaper: "The idea of the Royal Navy punishing the Papal States for their behaviour has found much support among ordinary Scots" and "...this Pope he maybe a Pope but he cannae be a True Catholic.   You involved yourself.

Those are statements in game in the paper. Part of the game, part of the character I am playing in that game.

You are having a very public argument on a public forum with another player and you have chosen to drag me into that argument with your posts.

And you are using part of my character in a game to justify dragging me into a public argument on a public forum?

I am truly shocked. Honestly, truly. That is not a reasonable rationale by you.

I will say no more on this matter.

jamesbond007 wrote: Throughout you have tried to force your will and ideas on the Catholic players. Particularly a weakened Spain. Which is why they have turned against you. Not the Catholic faith just the papal player. You.

I never doubted it was personal.

The Pope embodies the church which I have played fully in accordance with the teachings and law of the church, roleplaying the Pope with the powers he has. There is no distinction between the Catholic faith as practiced by the people of Spain and what the Pope upholds. You've done your worst and it has failed, and will now have to live with it. Makes no difference to me - I will keep playing in the same way as long as I'm paying my game turn fee. It is worth it for the entertainment of watching Roderigo the Moor become Ottoman Emperor.

Papa Clement wrote:

jamesbond007 wrote: Throughout you have tried to force your will and ideas on the Catholic players. Particularly a weakened Spain. Which is why they have turned against you. Not the Catholic faith just the papal player. You.

I never doubted it was personal.

The Pope embodies the church which I have played fully in accordance with the teachings and law of the church, roleplaying the Pope with the powers he has.  There is no distinction between the Catholic faith as practiced by the people of Spain and what the Pope upholds.   You've done your worst and it has failed, and will now have to live with it.  Makes no difference to me - I will keep playing in the same way as long as I'm paying my game turn fee.  It is worth it for the entertainment of watching Roderigo the Moor become Ottoman Emperor.

Lol. You really do go quite off the rails at times. Both in game/character and in the real world.
Rodrigo is a Catholic and spanish. Which is why the people accepted him as King.
Of course it is not personal. Just a game. I pay my turn fees and run Spain. I will not let you run or dictate to Spain. That is I feel where you get upset. When your will does not happen.
Anyway let’s end it there. Thanks for an entertaining morning.

Jason2 wrote:I am truly shocked.  Honestly, truly.  That is not a reasonable rationale by you.

Clearly not as shocked as last time when you quit the forum because you objected to me.

Since you rejoined with the exception of posts of a purely historical/research nature which are enjoyable, nearly every post has been written to criticise me or something one of my characters has done in game. Put it down to a personality clash if you will, but don't be surprised if when pushed into a corner I respond.

jamesbond007 wrote:

Papa Clement wrote:

jamesbond007 wrote: Throughout you have tried to force your will and ideas on the Catholic players. Particularly a weakened Spain. Which is why they have turned against you. Not the Catholic faith just the papal player. You.

I never doubted it was personal.

The Pope embodies the church which I have played fully in accordance with the teachings and law of the church, roleplaying the Pope with the powers he has.  There is no distinction between the Catholic faith as practiced by the people of Spain and what the Pope upholds.   You've done your worst and it has failed, and will now have to live with it.  Makes no difference to me - I will keep playing in the same way as long as I'm paying my game turn fee.  It is worth it for the entertainment of watching Roderigo the Moor become Ottoman Emperor.

Lol. You really do go quite off the rails at times. Both in game/character and in the real world.
Rodrigo is a Catholic and spanish. Which is why the people accepted him as King.
Of course it is not personal. Just a game. I pay my turn fees and run Spain. I will not let you run or dictate to Spain. That is I feel where you get upset. When your will does not happen.
Anyway let’s end it there. Thanks for an entertaining morning.

You're still not listening and probably never will.

And for those interested in other aspects of the turn...

I am enjoying the new-ish(?) Saxon player's actions and the articles they are leading to.

Jason2 wrote:And for those interested in other aspects of the turn...

I am enjoying the new-ish(?) Saxon player's actions and the articles they are leading to.  

Plus the really import bit...........a certain French Rear-Admiral being one of the most admired people in Europe.

Ok its only 10th place but not bad for a St Malo wharf rat.......just one with first rate taste in Clothes, Ships & Women and a French Patriot as well.

In view of the hard as iron reputation of the Swedish Veterans wonder if they are as tough as Samurai and how many attack waves do you have to send in to get them down to SL #16?

At which point it may be safe to risk the Mason du Roi......determination A........no quarter asked for or given.


PS I also really welcome the return of the Order of Saint John to the Noble Profession of Privateering.

Hmm, does that now mean we'll have a fashion show contest in the "Most Honoured" list between the rear-admiral and the Doge? What is the world coming to...

...and do we need a face off between the Swedes and the Samurai? Perhaps Sweden can buy an Indian colony off Denmark and provoke a conflict?

"A Maltese recruiting party has been arrested in Zurich for breaking Swiss law. The same thing happened in Florence, the capital of Tuscany."

So much for my guess as to which nations where inactive I guess 1/3 is better than 0/3!

Prunesquallor wrote:"A Maltese recruiting party has been arrested in Zurich for breaking Swiss law. The same thing happened in Florence, the capital of Tuscany."

So much for my guess as to which nations where inactive  I guess 1/3 is better than 0/3!

Glad you had some success One thing I have found though is even inactive positions often have bans on foreign recruiting.

Jason2 wrote:One thing I have found though is even inactive positions often have bans on foreign recruiting.

Page 16 of the core rulebook would support that thought.

In the game, it is considered bad form to try and recruit in a foreign state without first getting permission (via a letter to the ruler). Also, in many states this will actually be required as the law might ban such activity!