Game 10

1. A new map was presented for our information and, if the cartography is to be believed, I didn’t realise Genoa has a town in her lands controlled by another nation and it’s not Rapallo.

During the recent war when France and Savoy occupied Genoa, the Doge of Genoa was forced to sign a peace treaty that ceded Albenga to Savoy. Same scenario now with Spain.

Thanks again for the summary and welcome to the new players, a few this turn  

Hapsburg wrote:

1. A new map was presented for our information and, if the cartography is to be believed, I didn’t realise Genoa has a town in her lands controlled by another nation and it’s not Rapallo.

During the recent war when France and Savoy occupied Genoa, the Doge of Genoa was forced to sign a peace treaty that ceded Albenga to Savoy. Same scenario now with Spain.

Thanks again for the summary and welcome to the new players, a few this turn  

Untrue. Spain has not asked Genoa to cede any Genoan town to Spain.

Untrue    Spain’s invasion of Genoa and compelling the Doge of Genoa to sign a treaty are the same as France and Savoy some years ago.

But it may be months before what the Doge of Genoa is forced to cede is revealed in the game newspaper – the whole of Rapallo, part of Rapallo, a fortification, strip of territory, transit rights to Milan etc.

Hapsburg wrote:Untrue    Spain’s invasion of Genoa and compelling the Doge of Genoa to sign a treaty are the same as France and Savoy some years ago.

But it may be months before what the Doge of Genoa is forced to cede is revealed in the game newspaper – the whole of Rapallo, part of Rapallo, a fortification, strip of territory, transit rights to Milan etc.

This matter is between Genoa and Spain. Not yourself. So you don’t need to know.

Hapsburg wrote:Untrue    Spain’s invasion of Genoa and compelling the Doge of Genoa to sign a treaty are the same as France and Savoy some years ago.

But it may be months before what the Doge of Genoa is forced to cede is revealed in the game newspaper – the whole of Rapallo, part of Rapallo, a fortification, strip of territory, transit rights to Milan etc.

Meanwhile in G7 in order to improve transit of Milanese silk to the wider world crying out for improvements to fashion. The ever ever loveable Spanish Government and its Viceroy in Milan ended up:-

a) Funding the upgrades to Genoa and Savoy canals plus a new port for Genoa.

b) Allowing free access to Spain and Spanish colonies too the merchants of Genoa and Savoy. Which basically turned the Duchy of Milan into economic hinterland of Genoa or Genoa into the Port of Milan depending on your point of view.

c) Pay lots of subsidies and agree a Hapsburg marriage the Crown Prince of Savoy which would in time turn the Austrian branch of the House of Hapsburg into the House of Hapsburg-Savoy.

Basically all was all sweetness and Italian enlightenment with Italian cultural influences flooding into Spain and its Empire via its Italian (Milanese Queen)

Pity the French then decided to invade Genoa and then Savoy and ruin Hapsburg wedding plans by locking up the groom to be. Did not even have a secret treaty like G10 Spain !! Perhaps in future should take a leaf of of G10 and keep everything secret untill after the wedding.

Meanwhile in G7 in order to improve transit of Milanese silk to the wider world crying out for improvements to fashion. The ever ever loveable Spanish Government and its Viceroy in Milan ended up:-

a) Funding the upgrades to Genoa and Savoy canals plus a new port for Genoa.

b) Allowing free access to Spain and Spanish colonies too the merchants of Genoa and Savoy. Which basically turned the Duchy of Milan into economic hinterland of Genoa or Genoa into the Port of Milan depending on your point of view.

c) Pay lots of subsidies and agree a Hapsburg marriage the Crown Prince of Savoy which would in time turn the Austrian branch of the House of Hapsburg into the House of Hapsburg-Savoy.

Basically all was all sweetness and Italian enlightenment with Italian cultural influences flooding into Spain and its Empire via its Italian (Milanese Queen)

Pity the French then decided to invade Genoa and then Savoy and ruin Hapsburg wedding plans by locking up the groom to be. Did not even have a secret treaty like G10 Spain !! Perhaps in future should take a leaf of of G10 and keep everything secret untill after the wedding. Question Question Question

It is interesting to see how Genoa and Milan interrelate in another game. Both, especially Milan, always seem to be flashpoints in a game. I can still remember Milan being invaded in game 3 but can't remember the culprit 

Hapsburg wrote:

Meanwhile in G7 in order to improve transit of Milanese silk to the wider world crying out for improvements to fashion. The ever ever loveable Spanish Government and its Viceroy in Milan ended up:-

a) Funding the upgrades to Genoa and Savoy canals plus a new port for Genoa.

b) Allowing free access to Spain and Spanish colonies too the merchants of Genoa and Savoy. Which basically turned the Duchy of Milan into economic hinterland of Genoa or Genoa into the Port of Milan depending on your point of view.

c) Pay lots of subsidies and agree a Hapsburg marriage the Crown Prince of Savoy which would in time turn the Austrian branch of the House of Hapsburg into the House of Hapsburg-Savoy.

Basically all was all sweetness and Italian enlightenment with Italian cultural influences flooding into Spain and its Empire via its Italian (Milanese Queen)

Pity the French then decided to invade Genoa and then Savoy and ruin Hapsburg wedding plans by locking up the groom to be. Did not even have a secret treaty like G10 Spain !! Perhaps in future should take a leaf of of G10 and keep everything secret untill after the wedding. Question Question Question

It is interesting to see how Genoa and Milan interrelate in another game. Both, especially Milan, always seem to be flashpoints in a game. I can still remember Milan being invaded in game 3 but can't remember the culprit 

The Duchy of Milan generally starts as a trigger point in Glori since its the part of the inheritence of Carlos II whuich Austria has the best claim too and is also close too and can get too by land.

So either Austria takes control of Milan early in the game and many Spanish players then end up feeling robbed and spend a lot of time and effort trying to recover their missing Duchy. Or Spain keeps it and then spends rest of game trying to figure out a line of communication and supply too Milan and how too defend a position which is basically isolated and out on a limb.

Much the same can be said about Flanders and a brutally practical Spanish player may well decide to abandon both as more trouble than they are worth to focus on more profitable colonies in America, trade or say the conquest of Portugal for example. Esp if he gets a good offer in terms of colonies/cash.

But working on the basis that Spain wants to keep Duchy of Milan this tends to mean either getting on well with Genoa, Savoy or Venice or the conquest of one of these states. In G2 my Spanish Government basically dominated by an old Catholic Cleric who does not want to get shouted out by the Pope and Queen from Milan related to half the Curia and Charles von Hapsburg who mutters a lot mostly in German but does what he is told is not the type of position to go around attacking anyone for no good reason but did get on really well with the Doge of Genoa and the Duke of Savoy (ref Venice think Richard believes its impossible for me to get on with Venice and Ottoman tendancies likely to come out at any moment).

Sadly the French invasion messed up Hapsburg Wedding plans and its now war! For France aside from the joy of spoiling Hapsburg Wedding plans. There is also the the historic French claim too Milan plus from a military campaign options in Europe you have:-

a) Spain - full of mountains and a logistic nightmare once you get away from coast.

b) Flanders/Low countries - better from a logistic point of view but your siege trenches flood and you tend to upset and worry lots of Protestants.

c) The Rhineland and Austria via the Black Forest. - Up too the Rhine fine, over Rhine lots of wet woods and upset Germans.

d) The flat open lands of northern Italy - Warm, good wine, good logistics and a route too the soft under belly of Austria plus as added bonus the Protestants do not give a damn about Italy and France has had hundreds of years experience of ignoring the Pope. What is not too love about such campaigns? You too can be the young Gaston de Fox or a young Napoleon

Hi all, you might want to read Papa's post on G7 thread as it refers to incoming rules changes from their recent turn

Hapsburg wrote:

Meanwhile in G7 in order to improve transit of Milanese silk to the wider world crying out for improvements to fashion. The ever ever loveable Spanish Government and its Viceroy in Milan ended up:-

a) Funding the upgrades to Genoa and Savoy canals plus a new port for Genoa.

b) Allowing free access to Spain and Spanish colonies too the merchants of Genoa and Savoy. Which basically turned the Duchy of Milan into economic hinterland of Genoa or Genoa into the Port of Milan depending on your point of view.

c) Pay lots of subsidies and agree a Hapsburg marriage the Crown Prince of Savoy which would in time turn the Austrian branch of the House of Hapsburg into the House of Hapsburg-Savoy.

Basically all was all sweetness and Italian enlightenment with Italian cultural influences flooding into Spain and its Empire via its Italian (Milanese Queen)

Pity the French then decided to invade Genoa and then Savoy and ruin Hapsburg wedding plans by locking up the groom to be. Did not even have a secret treaty like G10 Spain !! Perhaps in future should take a leaf of of G10 and keep everything secret untill after the wedding. Question Question Question

It is interesting to see how Genoa and Milan interrelate in another game. Both, especially Milan, always seem to be flashpoints in a game. I can still remember Milan being invaded in game 3 but can't remember the culprit 

Hi, your friendly Italian neighborhood here.

In our economic geography Milan constitute one of the two major productive/trade hubs. We have the Brenner pass, who connect us with Central Europe (in our age, Austria, Bavaria, Saxony, Prussia, Denmark, etc.) who has its center in Venice, while the major land hubs were Verona and Padua. Austria also has a foot in since it owns Trieste. After WW1 Trieste economy collapsed due to being obscure by wenice which is the "door to levant".

West side we have Genoa, it's importance mainly due to the bank (Spanish debts here) and the harbor that connected Spain with the southern European market (bypassing France). But after the collapse of its eastern trade empire, Genoa was basically the harbor where goods produced by Turin and Milan could reach Northern Europe. Since Swiss was not a big market, and France was reachable by mountain passes, sea was the cheapest option for inflow and outflow of goods.

Milan is the center of a vast plain, well connected via rivers to all major towns in western Italy (interestingly enough, no connection between east and west. Trade was sent to Bologna, that sent it to Venice via Chioggia, who was also a major fishing trade hub). Turin, Milan Genoa and Bologna (and all minor towns) were linked by an extensive canal network.

bonus fun fact: north of Savoy (vercelli) was a major rice predictor, its lands so filled with canals and waters that, like UDP, land could be flooded to prevent troops moving, forcing them to pass the po river to take fight and tech Turin. Last time it happened was during the war of 1859. The engineer name who took care of the process was Carlo Noè, his surname can be translated as Noah.

EDIT: And Naples? In XVIII century the mediterranean economy was weak to say at least, and Naples wasn't a major trade hub. For Spain it meant prestige (two kings crown here), population (Neapolitan tercios were among the elite troops of the empire), but the most valuable asset were... trees.
Spanish forests were gone due to deforestation, to supply food for farming animals. But Calabria had significant forest, who provided excellent wood for the ships. In particular, the galley oars came from there, since it can be done only using a single trunk and only southern Italy, France, Venice and the balkans could grow such kind of trees (in the mediterranean).

Nexus06 wrote:

Hapsburg wrote:

Meanwhile in G7 in order to improve transit of Milanese silk to the wider world crying out for improvements to fashion. The ever ever loveable Spanish Government and its Viceroy in Milan ended up:-

a) Funding the upgrades to Genoa and Savoy canals plus a new port for Genoa.

b) Allowing free access to Spain and Spanish colonies too the merchants of Genoa and Savoy. Which basically turned the Duchy of Milan into economic hinterland of Genoa or Genoa into the Port of Milan depending on your point of view.

c) Pay lots of subsidies and agree a Hapsburg marriage the Crown Prince of Savoy which would in time turn the Austrian branch of the House of Hapsburg into the House of Hapsburg-Savoy.

Basically all was all sweetness and Italian enlightenment with Italian cultural influences flooding into Spain and its Empire via its Italian (Milanese Queen)

Pity the French then decided to invade Genoa and then Savoy and ruin Hapsburg wedding plans by locking up the groom to be. Did not even have a secret treaty like G10 Spain !! Perhaps in future should take a leaf of of G10 and keep everything secret untill after the wedding. Question Question Question

It is interesting to see how Genoa and Milan interrelate in another game. Both, especially Milan, always seem to be flashpoints in a game. I can still remember Milan being invaded in game 3 but can't remember the culprit 

Hi, your friendly Italian neighborhood here.

In our economic geography Milan constitute one of the two major productive/trade hubs. We have the Brenner pass, who connect us with Central Europe (in our age, Austria, Bavaria, Saxony, Prussia, Denmark, etc.) who has its center in Venice, while the major land hubs were Verona and Padua. Austria also has a foot in since it owns Trieste. After WW1 Trieste economy collapsed due to being obscure by wenice which is the "door to levant".

West side we have Genoa, it's importance mainly due to the bank (Spanish debts here) and the harbor that connected Spain with the southern European market (bypassing France). But after the collapse of its eastern trade empire, Genoa was basically the harbor where goods produced by Turin and Milan could reach Northern Europe. Since Swiss was not a big market, and France was reachable by mountain passes, sea was the cheapest option for inflow and outflow of goods.

Milan is the center of a vast plain, well connected via rivers to all major towns in western Italy (interestingly enough, no connection between east and west. Trade was sent to Bologna, that sent it to Venice via Chioggia, who was also a major fishing trade hub). Turin, Milan Genoa and Bologna (and all minor towns) were linked by an extensive canal network.

bonus fun fact: north of Savoy (vercelli) was a major rice predictor, its lands so filled with canals and waters that, like UDP, land could be flooded to prevent troops moving, forcing them to pass the po river to take fight and tech Turin. Last time it happened was during the war of 1859. The engineer name who took care of the process was Carlo Noè, his surname can be translated as Noah.

EDIT: And Naples? In XVIII century the mediterranean economy was weak to say at least, and Naples wasn't a major trade hub. For Spain it meant prestige (two kings crown here), population (Neapolitan tercios were among the elite troops of the empire), but the most valuable asset were... trees.
Spanish forests were gone due to deforestation, to supply food for farming animals. But Calabria had significant forest, who provided excellent wood for the ships. In particular, the galley oars came from there, since it can be done only using a single trunk and only southern Italy, France, Venice and the balkans could grow such kind of trees (in the mediterranean).

Hi friendly Italian neighborhood,

In G7 when the then player run Republic of Genoa and Spanish Milan attempted to link their canal systems and basically make it easy for Milanese silks to get too the Port of Genoa and away too all those not so poor ranchers, planters and miners in the Spanish America's crying out for a clean silk shirt on a Sunday plus dresses for the ladies in their life. Agema make us go via Alexandria in Savoy and basically pay for upgrade of Savoys canal system plus pay tarriffs to Savoy.

Probably easier to go via the river Po and pay Venetian taxes but I like to have alternative routes and Genoa was friendly unlike Venice. All of this canal building etc seemed to do great things for EH of Genoa but not much for Spain. Which may have been due to fact that Milan is only a part of much larger position. In terms of Economic Health and trade always get feeling that other parts of the Spanish Empire seem to be doing much better than Spain itself which in many ways seems a bit of a backwater in economic terms esp the maritime bit which always seems to come last in trade returns.

Apart from being a centre for manufacture and a trade hub for central Europe. Have played the Duchy along with Naples as the cultural centre of the Spanish Empire and have tried to give the Spanish enlightenment and very Italian rather than French feel. Not sure why due in game academies in Italy do seem to do a lot better with research and development than ones elsewhere in Spanish Empire.

Unable to comment on Spanish Italian forces in G7 as they have not done much but they seem ok. However I was very disappointed when the Army of Savoy failed utterly against the French. Basically dashed into battle, got defeated and failed to even have any fortress canon in Turin and its major ports which put up no real fight. Think even the French were shocked at the ease of their victory as they basically walked into Turin without breaking step. Have too hope Milan Ultra's will put up a better show than the Juave fanboys!!

Too disappointment of various Baltic players, timber supplies for shipbuilding never seems to have been much of an issue in Glori. Though I was interested to read that many of the leading Spanish ships of this period were built in Havana rather than Spain. Mostly due too costs which were cheaper than in Spanish yards.

Spain as an Empire (unlike the Dutch) seems to have had plenty of timber for shipbuilding with one exception being timber (mostly Pine) suitable for Masts esp masts for the largest ships. Some came from Florida but as with majority of powers mostly imported from Baltic and North America.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
Hi friendly Italian neighborhood,

In G7 when the then player run Republic of Genoa and Spanish Milan attempted to link their canal systems and basically make it easy for Milanese silks  to get too the Port of Genoa and away too all those not so poor ranchers, planters and miners in the Spanish America's crying out for a clean silk shirt on a Sunday plus dresses for the ladies in their life.  Agema make us go via Alexandria in Savoy and basically pay for upgrade of Savoys canal system plus pay tarriffs to Savoy.

Probably easier to go via the river Po and pay Venetian taxes but I like to have alternative routes and Genoa was friendly unlike Venice.  All of this canal building etc seemed to do great things for EH of Genoa but not much for Spain.  Which may have been due to fact that Milan is only a part of much larger position.  In terms of Economic Health and trade always get feeling that other parts of the Spanish Empire seem to be doing much better than Spain itself which in many ways seems a bit of a backwater in economic terms esp the maritime bit which always seems to come last in trade returns.

Well, I think this can be explained with geography. Liguria is separated from Piedmont by mountains, the Ligurian appennini. They are very hight and place challenges even today. Oddly, is easier to reach Genoa from Marseille than from Turin or Alexandria, and even today there are issues tied to tunnels. Investments were made by Savoy after the napoleonic wars to better link the areas. Still, Genoa was the major trade port for western north Italy (although we can see how a political entity similar to Venice couldn't raise in west northern Italy, despite the wealth). Unfortunately, it is correct that Milan and Genoa gets connected brought Piedmont. That is why the country that would benefit most (after Venice) of taking over Milan should be Savoy.

As far as I know, Genoa was relevant to the Spanish empire simply because they had a well working bank system happy to finance Spanish government.

Stuart Bailey wrote:Apart from being a centre for manufacture and a trade hub for central Europe.  Have played the Duchy along with Naples as the cultural centre of the Spanish Empire and have tried to give the Spanish enlightenment and very Italian rather than French feel.  Not sure why due in game academies in Italy do seem to do a lot better with research and development than ones elsewhere in Spanish Empire.

Unable to comment on Spanish Italian forces in G7 as they have not done much but they seem ok.  However I was very disappointed when the Army of Savoy failed utterly against the French.  Basically dashed into battle, got defeated and failed to even have any fortress canon in Turin and its major ports which put up no real fight.  Think even the French were shocked at the ease of their victory as they basically walked into Turin without breaking step.  Have too hope Milan Ultra's will put up a better show than the Juave fanboys!!

Too disappointment of various Baltic players, timber supplies for shipbuilding never seems to have been much of an issue in Glori.  Though I was interested to read that many of the leading Spanish ships of this period were built in Havana rather than Spain.  Mostly due too costs which were cheaper than in Spanish yards.

Spain as an Empire (unlike the Dutch) seems to have had plenty of timber for shipbuilding with one exception being timber (mostly Pine) suitable for Masts esp masts for the largest ships.  Some came from Florida but as with majority of powers mostly imported from Baltic and North America.  

The game has its logic which sometimes can be different from life, when economics comes into play, I presume.

Just one correction about Savoyard Army. I get the feeling that outside Italy Savoy is seen as a "southern Prussia" with a militaristic establishment and an efficient army. They weren't, at all.
It is true that it was an absolute monarchy, but was never anywhere near a decent army.
Cavour (1850) was a very good marketing manager, and sent to Crimea only the elite troops (Bersaglieri) who were elite light infantry for shock attacks. He marketed an elite unit for the bulk of the Savoyard army, but truth is that for most of its times it has been poorly trained and equipped.

Ref Nexus 06 post above when looking at a map of Northern Italy it made 100% sence that if you want to go from Genoa to Milan esp by canal or even road it makes sence to swing out too the west unless you are a big fan of mountain views or running a company building mountain tunnels or locks (probably beond C18 abilities).

Indeed it seems that the major advantage of Venice over Genoa is that it has a proper hinterland rather than a line of mountains so close to the city that I understand that engineers defending Genoa had too crown a whole series of stand alone areas of high land with fortifications or as artillery slowly increased in range the city became impossible too defend.

Thus it seems that for anyone looking to play an Italian position in Glori Venice is a much better position than Genoa unless you have serious Ottomans on the rampage. But then again as several games have shown positions in Italy can also suffer from France on the rampage.

Ref the Armies of Savoy and Prussia. The great moment for the Army of Savoy in the C18 was its heroic and very long defence of Turin in the War of the Spanish Succession. Think many English players (and also English speaking Historians) tend to focus on the WSS campaigns in Flanders and the Blenheim campaign and do not really pay any attention to the war in Italy and the fact that Turin was the worst French defeat of the whole war. Suspect that like my Ottoman siege of Vienna in G2 the French Invasion of Savoy and siege of Turin was an attempt to "get it right" this time! So as well as the Siege Army they had an Army of oberservation covering the siege against Imperialists from the north and the whole French fleet massed to stop any support from Spain. So it was a total disappointment to all concerned when the whole thing fell flat.

Bit like the Prussian Army in its recent G7 invasion of Poland. Tend to think that many Glori players tend to treat Prussia as the major power it became. When actually in the early C18 its in many ways inferior to Bavaria, Saxony and probably Liege-Cologne and Munster. There is one super Army in Glori and its not Prussia! Its Richards beloved Swedes......starve them all winter and have them outnumbered 4-1 in men and 20-1 in artillery and fight battle from behind defences and you might just about win with a few other bits if luck like their commander being wounded/sick before battle and their their powder being rotton.

Probably what both Prussia and Savoy need is to be played by someone who is first and foremost a diplomat, but willing to develop their military power as a aide too diplomacy and too keep the Nobility happy and ultra loyal. Genoa and Venice are more merchant and naval powers. Not sure about how one would set about playing Tuscany and the Papal Status.

Stuart Bailey wrote:
…
Probably what both Prussia and Savoy need is to be played by someone who is first and foremost a diplomat, but willing to develop their military power as a aide too diplomacy and too keep the Nobility happy and ultra loyal.  Genoa and Venice are more merchant and naval powers.  Not sure about how one would set about playing Tuscany and the Papal Status.

As an Italian playing tGoK (are there any other?) i think you are right. I believe it would be impossible to run a game as one of the “Italian states” and unify the entire peninsula.

Savoy, with a friendly France or a friendly emperor, has some chances of putting is hands on Milan and Genoa, but Venice starts with some advantages, first of all being the trade revenues.

I once asked Richard to allow me playing Milan, because in theory it should have been a very rich position, but it doesn’t exist and the request was denied. Naples i believe would be a nice run, too.

Back in the early ‘90 i played few months as the Pope (not fun to me, super diplomatic position), while a good friend had a nice run as Tuscany .I remember him very night in the honor table, and a war against Rumelia brought him Bosnia to rule. He also managed to create a colony in North Africa and almost become King elected of Italy, crowned by the pope, of an entity joining Venice, Tuscany, the Papal States and Savoy. I think that better than that no one can do.

Nexus06 wrote:

Stuart Bailey wrote:
…
Probably what both Prussia and Savoy need is to be played by someone who is first and foremost a diplomat, but willing to develop their military power as a aide too diplomacy and too keep the Nobility happy and ultra loyal.  Genoa and Venice are more merchant and naval powers.  Not sure about how one would set about playing Tuscany and the Papal Status.

As an Italian playing tGoK (are there any other?) i think you are right. I believe it would be impossible to run a game as one of the “Italian states” and unify the entire peninsula.

Savoy, with a friendly France or a friendly emperor, has some chances of putting is hands on Milan and Genoa, but Venice starts with some advantages, first of all being the trade revenues.

I once asked Richard to allow me playing Milan, because in theory it should have been a very rich position, but it doesn’t exist and the request was denied. Naples i believe would be a nice run, too.

Back in the early ‘90 i played few months as the Pope (not fun to me, super diplomatic position), while a good friend had a nice run as Tuscany .I remember him very night in the honor table, and a war against Rumelia brought him Bosnia to rule. He also managed to create a colony in North Africa and almost become King elected of Italy, crowned by the pope, of an entity joining Venice, Tuscany, the Papal States and Savoy. I think that better than that no one can do.

I wonder if Richard felt that Milan and Naples were part of another player's position (part of the Spanish empire?) and not an independent positron?

Tuscany could be an interesting position to play, think it was still ruled by the Medicis until about 1740-though by this time the family members seem to have lost the skills that made the family great.

Think trying to unite the whole of Italy from an Italian position is really tough for a couple of reasons:-

1) The Papacy - if you are the Pope attacking or trying to bully fellow Italian Catholic powers is really not the done thing. Unless the Pope has done something terrible attacking the Papal States is going to make you really unpopular and is just asking for a upside of Italy Catholic Army to show up too save Holy Mother Church. Think of the honour points for saving Rome and the Pope!

Perhaps some players are cunning and under hand enough to arrange for the Pope too have an accident and then get say a younger "Medici?" brother elected Pope. But its very high risk!

2) Outside Power involvement - Spain, France and Austria have varied claims to be King of Naples and Duke of Milan. In one game Venice convinced the Government of Spain to sale it Milan for a very cheap price but Emperor was really upset about sale of Hapsburg lands and new Spanish player convicted ministers behind sale of treason and bribery.

In another game Savoy took over Milan with French backing and the Doge of Genoa took over Naples also with French backing. But they were acting as Bourbon Viceroys and the Hapsburgs in Austria and later Spain were really upset.

3) Outside involvements - probably the strongest powers in Italy are Venice and the Papacy. But most players who are interested in these positions are not thinking about unity of Italy as a number 1 concern when they join. Well run Venice can probably build up economic and military power to take over large chunks of Italy but will probably have to turn its back on Ottomans and its colonial Empire too do it.

Could see various Spanish and French players having the ability and power too "unite" Italy after taking control of Milan and Naples. But doubt if that is the style of unity friendly local Italian was thinking about. Certainly expected the current French player in G7 after he took over Savoy and Genoa to continue into Milan because its Hapsburg and the Venice becuase its in the way of his trust into the soft underbelly of Austria. But if that was a jab he now seems to be throwing a right cross elsewhere. But in the future who knows? We could yet see the Lilly Banners on the march across Italy.

Italian unity under the Lilly Banners? Not sure what locals think but Madrid and Vienna think its a really, really bad idea.

Italy could be definitely taken by one player. However that one player would have to hold a massive position. Like a France, Spain, Austria. Either Spain or Austria would already hold Milan, Naples and Sicily so a big advantage and platform already. Savoy,Venice, Tuscany and Genoa would not be too much of a problem unless either of those nations held a treaty with a major power. Then it becomes very difficult.

To take Italy a player would also have to be prepared to attack the Pope and Rome. Which could prove unpopular and hurt honour. As the only nations that could take Italy would be Catholic. Any non Catholic countries trying to take Rome would draw a massive Catholic alliance against it. Also only Catholic countries hold land in Italy. So near impossible for non catholics. As the travel and resupply would be too difficult. Sick lists would be near impossible to contain without towns in Italy.

I think any nation trying to take and unite the whole of Italy for itself would be very unpopular with many other nations and this itself could lead to a large group of nations teaming up against it. Perhaps if there were other wars going on then it would be much easier. As other nations would be too busy fighting a war to want to start another with a major nation.

Also a lot depends on the players who hold positions in Italy. Are they war mongers or peaceful and want to only concentrate on the diplomatic and nation building type of game. Many players in Lgdr have never been involved in major wars.

So in conclusion Italy could be taken but only by a select few nations and players who were prepared to fall foul of Rome and Catholic religion. Which treaties between which nations are in place. Which players are playing in Italy. Game development and situations. If successful it would take many years to complete. This in itself would put most players off.

G10 arrived earlier in the week with no changes to the Honour Table. While the paper is fairly full there’s a lot of minor events detailed across many nations where I’d either have to list them all or none to be fair so this write up is a bit shorter than most.

1. Tuscan unhappiness at the state of affairs regarding Rapallo was raised in Madrid. Is this in part because Tuscany wants to buy Rapallo from Genoa?

Meanwhile England raised her concerns in the Austrian court

2. Lisbon saw noble unhappiness due to the King not paying into the state coffers

3. Further discussion at the trade conference, with some delegates going home before Christmas, while others have arrived.

Elsewhere more 0% trade treaties were put into place.

4. Prince Charles of Hesse-Kassel is said to be looking for a bride. Was he inspired by the Royal wedding between King John of Portugal and the emperor’s daughter Maria Magdalena in Vienna this month?

5. Armies seem to be in vogue in Brandenburg and Lithuania, while another bank considers whether paper currency will become the fashion for them too.

A new highest Order has been formed in Poland and His Majesty leads the way in badge wearing.

That said I wonder whether Buffoon of the Month will catch on?

6. The Sultan had his thoughts on Ottoman Nations who didn’t partake in voting made quite clear. Less clear was the position of Wallachia at these potential threats, though it seems quite the co-incidence that Egypt’s representative took ill after speaking out against the Wallachian representative.

7. New machines have been made available at the Guiana goldmines with the aim of improving worker welfare and efficiency.

8. The Guarded Domains of Iran seem to have a healthy budget. Welcome to a new player.

9. There is a discussion of sick lists and details of a new disperse order in the paper, with other discussions about this in the G7 thread if anyone’s interested.

How have folks fared with trade this year? My incomes from Maritime, Levant and Europe are all significantly down (especially Levant). Is this a general thing, or have I been singled-out for some opaque fault of my own?

The Revenant wrote:How have folks fared with trade this year?  My incomes from Maritime, Levant and Europe are all significantly down (especially Levant).  Is this a general thing, or have I been singled-out for some opaque fault of my own?

Russia's dropped from the Levant trade top 10, probably due to increased investment from Ottoman nations signing to agree to invest minimum amounts in trade - suspect wasn't clear where they should invest and the default's been the Levant. Think region shows the biggest changes in the trade report

Europe's got high friction around Genoa so that's probably reducing trade confidence for all.

Not sure about the Maritime area, could be increased competition in specific goods from other nations trading in the area?

Don't think you've been singled out, but always worth asking you advisors.

Also not so easy to identify reasons as don't know which nation you are, nor what you've invested in. Feel free to write to the Tsar if you want to discuss in more detail

My Levant Trade has dropped by about 60% while other areas are also down, will make it a frugal year !! There has been some big investment this year obviously due to the Ottomans agreeing a big part of their income to Trade. Think Levant is due to the general uncertainty in the region so time to get a little creative as a crowded market does present opportunities

The turn arrived a while back with no changes on the honour table, must be because events were concentrated on celebrating Christmas and Ramadan.

1. The new Lithuanian delegate to the trade conference made a proposal to help move the conference forward on any decisions that had some support.

2. Prussian troops finally made it home from their part in the French war to a parade and great honours.

3. The Chancellor of Hesse-Darmstadt sought permission from the Imperial Free City’s council to improve Frankfurt’s defences, which they agreed to but should be funded through existing taxes. Belated welcome to the game Hesse Darmstadt – you’ve likely been in a while now and apologies I missed your entrance.

4. Prince Wilhelm, the son of Landgraf Charles of Hesse-Kassel, has announced he is searching for a bride.

Changamire Dombo II is also looking for husbands for his daughters, and may just have found them.

5. Bavaria held discussions around recent tax increases, codification of the law and a date’s been set for the Banquet for a new era of peace, prosperity and unity in Bavaria with the first replies being publicly announced. However, the problem with sending out uninvited recruiting parties is it could cause the opposite of peace.

Then again Bavaria weren’t the only ones to send out recruiting parties that got into trouble with local authorities.

6. King John of Portugal said that his marriage into the Imperial family symbolised a long future of peace, prosperity and cooperation, before he left for Rome.

7. Kalisz and Graudenz have both declared for Royalist control, the latter following a short military action around the citadel.

8. More military build ups occurred around Rapallo and Spezia with Neapolitan troops supporting the local garrisons. Spanish forces left Rapallo to head for Milan, but they probably hadn’t heard about the Count of Gerona’s rebellion there.

9. The Doge of Venice is offering his services to mediate between Spain and Austria

10. Congratulations to Sultan Ahmed III & Rabia Sermi Kadin on the birth of their baby girl. Next month the Sultan will start touring his vassal states.

Licenses are now for sale for the Red Sea Canal project, by contacting the Wali in Egypt.

11. Rumours abound that Blackbeard has died