Another new player

Deacon wrote:
Well, if G7 gets too peaceful, it looks like war is breaking out in game 8. Between the Austrian/Hispanic war with the Ottomans and France and Russia soon to be going at it, looks like the fireworks are finally starting up properly there.

Of course the Moghul has been running over the rest of India for years, but I put wars with NPCs in a different category.

Stuart Bailey wrote:

Deacon wrote:
Well, if G7 gets too peaceful, it looks like war is breaking out in game 8. Between the Austrian/Hispanic war with the Ottomans and France and Russia soon to be going at it, looks like the fireworks are finally starting up properly there.

Of course the Moghul has been running over the rest of India for years, but I put wars with NPCs in a different category.

That would make:

G7 - The enlightened game of cricket and colonial development

G8 - Wargame

G10 - Game of Religious Debate

But where does that leave G9?

Prunesquallor wrote:Glad to hear it, Stuart, as that was ultimately what I went with (i.e., Malta in G10) Thank you very much for the pointers.  Lot's to ruminate over!

Jason2 wrote:It's good to see Malta being played for a change  I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on it as a position.

Prunesquallor wrote:

Jason2 wrote:It's good to see Malta being played for a change  I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on it as a position.

I have very little to compare it to not having played any other position before, not to mention that I've just started this one.  That said, I have been enjoying playing it, and learning more about Malta and it's place in 18th century Europe.
It's definitely a good position to start off with as I've not felt overwhelmed by the amount of things on my plate.  And I also think it has potential to have some impact on the game despite its tiny size.  We'll see if I can manage that

On a separate topic, can someone clarify for me if there is a distinction between the newspaper articles at the beginning and those at the end in bold font?  Are the first set of articles written by Agema and the latter by players?

Jason2 wrote:As to Malta's population, that is much smaller than I expected!  Would have thought it nearer the League!

Stuart Bailey wrote:Clearly Malta is not a secondary position in same way as the VOIC or the HEIC but the Gazetteer gives population of Valetta as a 1,000 so what about the rest of the Island? Gonzo and the Orders other properties?  Wonder if 1,000 is not the starting recruit figure?

Papa Clement wrote:I think this is an 'ask advisors' question for clarification since whatever answer you receive will have a big impact on what you can do in the game.

Papa Clement wrote:I had expected to get something on my turn to tell me that Malta was active and how this therefore affected the Papacy, but there wasn't

Papa Clement wrote:The simplest (and probably fairest) way it could be set up would be for you to have Malta as a micro-country run as any other position without any impact on the Papacy so you could get your recruits from Malta and develop the island in the same way Jason2 can with his Hanseatic League.

Papa Clement wrote:even though Japan has annexed the Philippines and will probably continue to grab the rest of Spanish Far East before attacking California;

Papa Clement wrote:I think this is an 'ask advisors' question for clarification since whatever answer you receive will have a big impact on what you can do in the game.

Historically I agree with you that the Grandmaster was the Head of the Order and ruler of Malta, so logically you should have Malta as your recruit base.  As a religious order cannot own property (vow of poverty), their resources are legally held on their behalf by the Papacy.  The Knights can use them, but don't own them.  I had expected to get something on my turn to tell me that Malta was active and how this therefore affected the Papacy, but there wasn't - you know, little but rather important things (for both of us) like how many recruits I should provide you with, what money, etc, and how he has set up the relationship between Malta and the Papacy.  So I don't know precisely how the GM is reflecting Malta's status.  In G7 the Jesuits were played as a while, but not by me - I don't know how they were set up, but they effectively became a subsidiary position of Spain, reliant on Spain for their recruits and budget.  I don't know how this worked in practice or whether this is the kind of model Malta was set up like.  Does rather leave me in limbo as well.  

The simplest (and probably fairest) way it could be set up would be for you to have Malta as a micro-country run as any other position without any impact on the Papacy so you could get your recruits from Malta and develop the island in the same way Jason2 can with his Hanseatic League.

But ... and this is where it will get tricky and where you really need clarification from the GM ... on most game maps Malta is under the protection of Spain.

Of course in G10 things are much more complicated because of the history of the game (a history which every player except the player for Spain accepts).

Malta is legally an offshoot of Sicily, and Sicily is a Papal Fief (in the rules, even if various players have chosen to ignore this).

Following the death of King Carlos II the Papal Fiefs (Sardinia, Sicily, Naples) reverted to the Papacy.  This would have happened irrespective of the Papal Judgement and it is the Papal position that Sicily is currently ruled directly by the Papacy.  Malta therefore could be considered to be a Papal protectorate run by the Knights.  This is what I am basing my next turn on in the absence of anything different.  

However, the situation is on the ground is less clear, because:

- France denies that Sicily is a Papal Fief so has been trying to capture it for a few years.  The last time a volcano blew up and did rather a lot of damage to French forces, which really gives some indication of how unwelcome the French are.  Reference to a 'King of Sicily' refers to a Bourbon/corsair character who has tried several times to stage a coronation, but has been unable to usurp the throne thanks in part to the splendid Archbishop of Palermo.  This month the French army took their frustrations out on the Mayor of Palermo by murdering him, which seems to have been a popular move (or at least encouraged people to clap in case they too lost their heads).  The French/corsairs don't do diplomacy, but tend to alternate between intimidation and bribery.

- Genoa has been appointed temporary Papal Viceroy of Naples (ruling Naples on my behalf), although is currently trying to clear the French out of Sicily in the hope that I will reunite Naples and Sicily, and possibly appoint him King of Naples&Sicily.  The Doge tends to be a much more stable chap who throws lots of parties and is very well thought of, although I have advised him that he will not hold off an invasion by holding a masked ball and inviting the French to a wine tasting.

- Meanwhile the new player for Spain is trying to pretend that Spain still rules all the lands it did in 1700 (even though Japan has annexed the Philippines and will probably continue to grab the rest of Spanish Far East before attacking California; the French Bourbon/Corsair faction has seized Flanders; the excommunicated ex-Duke of Savoy has seized Milan; various other colonies have either thrown off Spanish rule or have been taken by others, etc) so if you asked him you would probably get the response that he considers Sicily to be his.  Of course there is the added complication that the King of Spain (Karl) is held captive in Savoy, so the 'ruler' of Spain is actually an imposter called 'Roderigo' who is about as royal as a King Edward Potato, although not as intelligent.  Whether anyone seriously believes a player who tries to rule a fantasy Empire with a fantasy 'king' and dismisses anyone who tries to inject some rational analysis into the game as deluded, I leave to the judgement of others.

Perhaps this is why the GM hasn't quite got round to clarifying the status/ownership of Malta - he may be as confused as most players.

Lol. Interesting piece. Most untrue and incorrect though. Japan has leased the Phillippines. He is a long standing friend and we Agreed a deal on them which suited us both. I think that was announced in the newspaper. You need to read it more thoroughly.

There is no King Karl. The Pope crowned him king of Spain. But it is upto the Spanish player as it is all players to choose their own king. Not upto the papal player to choose the worlds kings.

Of course Sicily is the Spanish players. Just because the pope announced he was giving them to himself does not make them so. One day soon the Spanish player will retake stolen lands I guess.?

Marshal Bombast wrote:

Papa Clement wrote:I had expected to get something on my turn to tell me that Malta was active and how this therefore affected the Papacy, but there wasn't

I've never known Richard to comment on which positions are active within a given game.

Prunesquallor wrote:Papa, you've mentioned a number of the nuances I was alluding to in my post earlier. For such a tiny position, the political aspect can be very complex. From what I've read (several articles plus currently reading The Last of the Crusaders by Roderick Cavaliero), this duality between religious order (under the Pope) and sovereign-ish state (with some obligation to Sicily) has always required some diplomatic maneuvering by the knights. Here's an excerpt from the Cavaliero book that I think sheds some light on this matter and how I’m approaching the position:

“The Grand Master enjoyed power in two capacities: as head or a religious order and as prince of Malta. As the second, he was an absolute prince, owing nominal feudal vassalage to the King of Sicily. His nearest parallels were the Electoral Prince Bishops of Germany. As the first he was a constitutional monarch, subject to the statutes, to the decisions of the Councils whom he could not defy, and to the Pope. The Pope enjoyed absolute spiritual dominion over the Order and had to approve of every decision that affected it. The Order liked to believe that even his power was limited by the statutes, and as late as 1953 it was arguing that as it was a sovereign body the Pope had no power over its constitution except to withhold his consent to any change it might decree. Throughout the Order’s existence in Malta the Pope effectively held the balance between constitutional anarchy and Grand Magisterial despotism. On the whole the Popes behaved scrupulously in observing the statutes, but they were often inclined to interfere where they had the power, especially in granting gratuitous dispensations to individual Knights from compliance with the more rigorous rules of the Order.”

Papa Clement wrote:
If a position becomes active that is linked to my active position and I am expected to support it in some way then I would expect to be informed of how that impacts my position.  Clearly a Catholic religious order based in a Papal Fief cannot operate without some input from the Papacy.  Even more so when that player's character just happens to also be on my lists!

Papa Clement wrote:
On Japan, the entry "Manilla" sounds quite clear to me: "Akimoto Takatomo has been able to confirm that the Philippines are most certainly under Japanese direct rule.  As a consequence he has managed to take over the city fortifications at Manila."  But if I've got it wrong then I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten us in your turn writeup.

Papa Clement wrote:
On Japan, the entry "Manilla" sounds quite clear to me: "Akimoto Takatomo has been able to confirm that the Philippines are most certainly under Japanese direct rule.  As a consequence he has managed to take over the city fortifications at Manila."  But if I've got it wrong then I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten us in your turn writeup.

jamesbond007 wrote:

Marshall Bombast wrote:
On Japan, the entry "Manilla" sounds quite clear to me: "Akimoto Takatomo has been able to confirm that the Philippines are most certainly under Japanese direct rule.  As a consequence he has managed to take over the city fortifications at Manila."  But if I've got it wrong then I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten us in your turn writeup.

Try the Madrid entry.

Will look at write up tomorrow

Thanks Marshal. Some players cannot take in what is in black and white and in front of them. They are so wrapped up in themselves and their own ideas they cannot take in others plans and ideas.

Papa Clement wrote:

jamesbond007 wrote:

Marshall Bombast wrote:
On Japan, the entry "Manilla" sounds quite clear to me: "Akimoto Takatomo has been able to confirm that the Philippines are most certainly under Japanese direct rule.  As a consequence he has managed to take over the city fortifications at Manila."  But if I've got it wrong then I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten us in your turn writeup.

Try the Madrid entry.

Will look at write up tomorrow

Thanks Marshal. Some players cannot take in what is in black and white and in front of them. They are so wrapped up in themselves and their own ideas they cannot take in others plans and ideas.

I'll look forward to the write-up.

I'm sure due weight will be given to the views of King Karl of Spain.

jamesbond007 wrote:I will write a nice piece for the newspaper next turn which I think you will find interesting.